Can MQA encoded CDs be ripped?

[wklie]

If the specification "MQA Full decoding up to 4x(192kHz)" is true for this hardware, then MQA is rendererd at 176.4kHz.

 

The MQA 352kHz display refers to the sample rate of the master, not the actual rendering rate being played by the DAC (176.4kHz in this case for this hardware) - which differs among different MQA DAC.

[CJA]

3 minutes ago, Archimago said:

 

Who knows man. The  only way for sure is to get confirmation from the manufacturer as to what it's doing - eg. is the upsampling on the decoder limited to 192kHz. Or you can measure the output and see whether the upsampled content still has frequencies up at 176.4kHz if indeed it's going all the way to 352.8. Of course all that upsampled stuff is just artefact from the use of "leaky" filters...

 

That's the other thing - I don't think there's an audible advantage if there's any difference. 

I keep telling myself I hear the 352.8 file as having slightly more prominent and artificial "airiness" but tonality is virtually identical overall. I think I have a preference to the 16/44.1 playback because it sounds more natural.

[CJA]

Basically, at this point I'm just satisfying a curiosity to see how the files are handled by each player. I made a new FLAC rip to use with the MQA helper app and this created proper music files tagged as mqa.flac.

The previous FLAC file I used was converted from AIFF so I wanted to make sure to start with a fresh FLAC rip this time. MQA suggests FLAC files carry other information that MQA references.

I tried 5 versions of the Blondie "Best Of' from a usb drive into the Bluesond Node 2i.
(AIFF), (FLAC), (MQA.AIFF), (MQA.FLAC) (both of those tagged by adding mqa the file name) and (MQA.FLAC) tagged by the MQA helper app.

When viewing the music files in a folder, The Bluesound Node 2i displays an icon of either CD or MQA. The first 4 types listed above show as "CD." The MQA.FLAC tagged by the helper app shows up as MQA which according to Bluesound means "24-bit MQA files. Refer to our Help Center article for more information."

But what's odd is that when you expand the currently playing track to full screen which is where the Bluesound MQA indicator light is, every single file shows a blue light MQA logo which on Bluesound's support page means "A 24-bit file converted and confirmed as MQA."

There is a "technical info"view from the full screen view of the current track that shows bit depth and sample rate - Each of the 5 files shows 16/44.1 so I assume this is the raw music file and not the output.

In the grand scheme I'm not sure that information means much of anything as the Bluesound doesn't have the dynamic range to play back such high resolution as I understand it. It was my first streamer and just sticks around to use with a vintage 70's integrated in another room and because the software interface is easy to use.

Nevertheless, I'm interested how the Lumin A1 handles the files next week. I heard zero differences between the files on the Bluesound Node 2i. The new files I ripped  displayed the exact same sample rates as I posted on page 1 of this thread. The 352.8kHz from my hand-tagged files is still curious given that the new MQA rip from the helper app still shows up as 44.1.

 

 

 

[Norton]

On 8/3/2023 at 6:50 PM, CJA said:

I have a Vitus integrated which has a Convers Digital Board. I would guess my Vitus uses the CDMCM-2121R board because the serial number of the device starts with CDM212 - specs for this board with regard to MQA are: 

"MQA Full decoding up to 4x(192kHz)

• Core decoding only is optional."

 

My Vitus and the Mconnect app (also by Convers Digital) do not have an MQA light so I would guess it's not fully compliant in one way or another. MQA is listed as supported in the app info though not to what capacity.

Maybe I’ve misunderstood, but your query seems to be based on just an assumption that your Vitus amp (which I presume has an onboard DAC) has capability as a MQA decoder and/or renderer.   What does the manufacturer state as to its MQA abilities?  As far as I can see Vitus are not listed as a partner by MQA.

[CJA]

13 minutes ago, Norton said:

Maybe I’ve misunderstood, but your query seems to be based on just an assumption that your Vitus amp (which I presume has an onboard DAC) has capability as a MQA decoder and/or renderer.   What does the manufacturer state as to its MQA abilities?  As far as I can see Vitus are not listed as a partner by MQA.

Correct. There are virtually no published specs from Vitus.

But the serial number for the streamer/dac inside the digital board indicates that it is a Convers Digital board and thus why Mconnect is the recommended control app. The Convers Digital board does support MQA and the app which communicates with the board in the Vitus shows MQA as a supported format in the app. Vitus apparently chose not to integrate any MQA indicator on the amp.

 

Today someone at Steve Hoffman forums told me that the Universal Japan MQA CDs actually start at 16 bit / 352.8 kHz which would explain why there is no expanding to 24 bit. If I understood him correctly, he said it is a limitation of the MQA CD format.

 

I am waiting for his reply to confirm what I wrote in reply to him which is pasted below:

If you want to read his informative post check this: https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/playback-of-ripped-mqa-cd-file-opinion-requested.1180980/#post-32589572

 

"Great info that I had previously missed. Thanks for posting.

Can you tell me if I'm interpreting the behavior of my Vitus streamer and Bluesound Node correctly?

If I understand the info about the UMJ discs, the Blondie pre-encoded file was 16/352.8.

On my Vitus...
The two hand-tagged mqa files and mqa-helper app tagged file (mqa.aiff, mqa.flac and mqa.flac) show up as 352.8 so an MQA process of upsampling and filtering is probably being engaged.

On the Bluesound...
Given that the blue mqa light appears in the Bluesound app for every single file including the non-mqa tagged files, Bluesound detects an mqa process on the files and is applying upsampling and filtering.
It would seem that MQA-CD files still gets a blue light (supposedly indicating a 24 bit source) despite the original encoded file being 16 and not 24 bit due to the limitations of the format."

 

 

 

 

[Norton]

11 minutes ago, CJA said:

and the app which communicates with the board in the Vitus shows MQA as a supported format in the app

Is the App MConnect?  AFAIK, all that MConnect means by supporting MQA is that it will pass an MQA stream (usually via Tidal) bitperfect to a streamer or DAC, MConnect itself is not decoding the MQA stream.

[Cebolla]

@Norton, you appear to have missed both that @CJA's Vitus has a Conversdigital (streamer) board & is using (Conversdigital's) Mconnect controller app, in the post that you quoted in your first post - Conversdigital being very much an MQA Limited partner manufacturer!

[Cebolla]

55 minutes ago, CJA said:

blue light (supposedly indicating a 24 bit source)

 

This was debunked by @FredericV years ago:

 

[CJA]

1 minute ago, Cebolla said:

 

This was debunked years ago:

 

I'm not debating the scam of MQA. I'm quoting Bluesound's referencing of MQA's explanation of what the lights are supposed to mean and simply trying to understand the behavior of the files on the players I have with regard to if they are behaving as designed.

[Cebolla]

10 minutes ago, CJA said:

I'm not debating the scam of MQA.

 

Not sure why you are surprised by seeing the blue light, then, Blue or green, it has has no value other than indicating that the MQA supporting kit has simply detected MQA.

[CJA]

6 minutes ago, Cebolla said:

 

Not sure why you are surprised by seeing the blue light, then, Blue or green, it has has no value other than indicating that the MQA supporting kit has simply detected MQA.

 

You mean I can't be certain that the artist, engineers, and producers have signed off that this is indistinguishable to the master it's derived from??? Say it isn't so!

 

[Norton]

2 hours ago, Cebolla said:

you appear to have missed both that @CJA's Vitus has a Conversdigital (streamer) board & is using (Conversdigital's) Mconnect controller app

Way over my head technically  I’m afraid.  But if a forum member is registering problems with MQA replay, but neither the manufacturer (Vitus) of his equipment makes any claims re MQA replay, nor does MQA list that manufacturer as a MQA replay partner, then it is likely  a waste of time pursuing things further.

[CJA]

29 minutes ago, Norton said:

Way over my head technically  I’m afraid.  But if a forum member is registering problems with MQA replay, but neither the manufacturer (Vitus) of his equipment makes any claims re MQA replay, nor does MQA list that manufacturer as a MQA replay partner, then it is likely  a waste of time pursuing things further.

 

Thanks for your valuable input.

[Norton]

14 minutes ago, CJA said:

 

Thanks for your valuable input.

If you want valuable input best to simply ask the manufacturer of your very expensive amp how to achieve MQA replay or else buy a MQA certified DAC.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CJA]

5 minutes ago, Norton said:

If you want valuable input best to simply ask the manufacturer of your very expensive amp how to achieve MQA replay or else buy a MQA certified DAC.

 

Awesome. Thanks again.

[Currawong]

On 8/6/2023 at 2:42 AM, CJA said:

On my Vitus...
The two hand-tagged mqa files and mqa-helper app tagged file (mqa.aiff, mqa.flac and mqa.flac) show up as 352.8 so an MQA process of upsampling and filtering is probably being engaged.

On the Bluesound...
Given that the blue mqa light appears in the Bluesound app for every single file including the non-mqa tagged files, Bluesound detects an mqa process on the files and is applying upsampling and filtering.
It would seem that MQA-CD files still gets a blue light (supposedly indicating a 24 bit source) despite the original encoded file being 16 and not 24 bit due to the limitations of the format."

 

You've got it right. Basically, whatever lights turn on, or sample rate is indicated, is merely just based on flags and numbers in the MQA encoded data. Neither actually reflect anything about the actual content. Heck, they could have encoded the original sample rate as 8008.5* and it would have been just about as meaningful. 

*It's an old schoolboy digital calculator joke, if you don't understand the reference.

[CJA]

1 hour ago, Currawong said:

 

You've got it right. Basically, whatever lights turn on, or sample rate is indicated, is merely just based on flags and numbers in the MQA encoded data. Neither actually reflect anything about the actual content. Heck, they could have encoded the original sample rate as 8008.5* and it would have been just about as meaningful. 

*It's an old schoolboy digital calculator joke, if you don't understand the reference.

 

I'm not exactly sure what you mean - the content for the UMJ MQA disc of "The Best of Blondie" is sourced from a 24/352.8 file according to the OBI. The rips I made of this 16/44.1 redbook cd are being upsampled and filtered to different degrees in each piece of gear I played them on.

 

My post was meant to be about the technical aspects of ripping, tagging and playing files of an MQA-CD that engages (or doesn't) the MQA process on that piece of gear (even if we agree that it's all smoke & mirrors).

 

So playing 5 different rips of that disc as AIFF, FLAC, MQA hand-tagged AIFF, MQA hand-tagged FLAC & MQA Helper App tagged FLAC caused the following behavior on a Vitus SIA-030, Bluesound Node 2i, and a Lumin A1:

 

On the Vitus...
The two hand-tagged mqa files and mqa-helper app tagged file (mqa.aiff, mqa.flac and mqa.flac) show up as 352.8 so an MQA process of upsampling and filtering is probably being engaged.

The Vitus hardware itself indicates the sample rate presented to its internal dac.

On the Bluesound...
The blue mqa light (supposedly indicating a 24 bit source according to Bluesound's FAQ about MQA) illuminates in the Bluesound app for each of the 5 rips including the non-mqa tagged files. In each case Bluesound detects an mqa process on the files and is supposedly applying upsampling and filtering.

 

On the Lumin A1...

Similar to the Bluesound, the Lumin A1 engages upsampling and filtering for all of the 5 rips of the album. The Lumin app and hardware display show a file resolution of 24/352.8.
 

[wklie]

In case anybody still cares about it, manufacturers intending to support MQA had the responsibility to send devices (especially with analog output) to MQA Ltd. for the support of MQA - it is not enough just for the streaming board inside to be verified - it has to be the complete unit with DAC.  Although some people did not believe it, those hardware was indeed measured, and if necessary, different filters for different hardware would have been created.  Generally, the streaming board and the DAC need to communicate to make everything work, including the front panel display and especially the correct invocation and implementation of the required / measured / approved filter without audio anomalies.  MQA device manufacturers also needed to pay royalties to MQA Ltd.

 

As of today, I maintain 25 MQA devices (some together with our partners) of different types of outputs with different hardware architectures and DAC types.

[Currawong]

23 hours ago, CJA said:

I'm not exactly sure what you mean -

What I mean is, nothing you say is incorrect, it's just that these lights and numbers don't actually mean anything useful. It's still only 16/44.1 data (or 13/44.1 + 3 bits of noise).

[CJA]

On 8/15/2023 at 2:43 AM, wklie said:

In case anybody still cares about it, manufacturers intending to support MQA had the responsibility to send devices (especially with analog output) to MQA Ltd. for the support of MQA - it is not enough just for the streaming board inside to be verified - it has to be the complete unit with DAC.  Although some people did not believe it, those hardware was indeed measured, and if necessary, different filters for different hardware would have been created.  Generally, the streaming board and the DAC need to communicate to make everything work, including the front panel display and especially the correct invocation and implementation of the required / measured / approved filter without audio anomalies.  MQA device manufacturers also needed to pay royalties to MQA Ltd.

 

As of today, I maintain 25 MQA devices (some together with our partners) of different types of outputs with different hardware architectures and DAC types.

 

Peter,

Today I was wondering why the Lumin A1 plays back files from an MQA-CD at the same bit depth and resolution regardless of whether the rips are AIFF (or FLAC) or MQA.FLAC. My Bluesound Node 2i seems to do the same thing.

 

If the files are internally handled the same way and display as 24/352.8 in the Lumin app and on the hardware, why bother tagging them with .MQA in the file name?

 

The guess I have is that the Lumin and Bluesound are MQA full decoders and the way they handle MQA-CD files might be exclusive to that kind of hardware.

 

My Vitus amp with its not-really-MQA-cetified-except-for-the-ConversDigital-streaming-board oddly upsamples to 352.8 but keeps the bit depth at 16 and only does this with MQA-tagged tracks. Neither the classification of "core decoder" or "renderer" seem to fit the Vitus device's playback since a "core decoder" allegedly only plays back at 88.2 or 96kHz. But this behavior is what makes me guess that full decoders can identify MQA on both MQA-tagged and MQA-untagged files.

 

Thanks,

Christian

 

 

 

[wklie]

Proper tagging or .mqa file naming should not be required for correct implementation of MQA in network streamers.  If some manufacturers did not achieve this goal for this any reason, then they might be helped by users manually tagging or naming the files.

 

What you described is not exclusive.  They are intended to work that way.  The ability to do this properly is independent from whether it's a MQA full decoder.  Lumin U series with digital outputs only is a MQA Core decoder, not full decoder (as that requires analog output), but they also behave in the intended way.  Even with MQA Core decoder output of 88.2kHz, the MQA display is still 352.8kHz because it refers to the master, not the output.

 

With MQA, please do not worry about the bit depth display of 16 bit or 24 bit.