Amir at ASR claims Uptone won't sell the ISO regen to him...

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Interesting if true

 

Anyone else have their orders canceled?

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38 minutes ago, firedog said:

I think it is pretty clear that: a) Amir has an agenda which colors his work; b) isn't actually competent to do the measurements properly.

He also did let his biases influence what he wrote in his original evaluation of the Regen.

As Alex has said he would be fine giving one to other reviewers who do measurements, your post seems to have no basis.

Amir is an EE. He's also the VP that was in charge of replacing kmixer in XP with WASAPI in Vista/7.  He's wrote a few college texts on the Unix Operating System also. 

 

Here's another thing: Unless Uptone has purchased any new analysis gear, Amir is also better situated to actually bench these devices and post the measured output. This is something the manufacturer should be doing. 

 

He's been benching DAC's (iFi, Behringer, Schitt) and honest to god: If you have a problem with his measurements, go get a PHd. in EE, drop $20-25,000 on an Audio Precision analyzer and prove him wrong. 

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2 hours ago, Superdad said:

By the way, I don't hear any drumbeats for measurements of products and devices from all sorts of other firms, either at WBF or at that ASR graveyard Amir presides over with his sycophants.

 

He's been benching DAC's left and right...

 

You got anytime for a blind eval of the Regen? 

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1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

What is the return policy for the ISO REGEN?

 

Far as I know it's what ever Alex says it is. There is nothing on the website about it that I've found.

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9 hours ago, Speed Racer said:

 

Nice dodge......I don't know and I bet you don't know.

 

Uh, his ears. As in Alex should allow for someone to setup a blind testing rig.

 

Get a windows machine and two DAC's. Feed the DAC's output into a preamp with multiple inputs. One DAC has the regen and another not. Windows can feed both DAC's the same stream at the same time.

 

This would be single blind with someone doing the input switching. 

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8 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

Again this is not about measurements.  I am under zero obligation to sell our products to hostile people who seek only to defame us.

 

But as far as the most important and direct measure of a USB signal regenerating, an eye-pattern contains and reveals the all most important information: amplitude, jitter, noise, edge rates, timing error, etc.--those are the components of what is known as Signal Integrity.

Here is a short article about them: http://www.edn.com/design/test-and-measurement/4389368/Eye-Diagram-Basics-Reading-and-applying-eye-diagrams

 

Differences between USB cables are also revealed using with eye-pattern sweeps.  Here is the before and after with the ISO REGEN:

BEFORE:

 

AFTER:

 

 

 

 

 

Those are both clean eye patterns. A DAC should have zero issue extracting from either with minimal overhead. Show me the output of the DAC or let me fly out and see how you do with your sighted bias removed from the equation. 

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5 hours ago, firedog said:

Like I said, having the degree and the piece of equipment don't prove you know how to use it properly to get real results. Please tell me how this is an incorrect statement. 

 

Funny, when John Atkinson measured the Regen it actually measured WORSE then no regen. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Findings that corroborate Amir and some others. Who has the agenda here? 

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18 minutes ago, firedog said:

Mansr-

You are an intelligent guy, so surely you can consider the additional possibility that Alex doesn't trust Amir (with at least some reason, whether you accept the reasoning or not) to do objective work. 

Guess what the defense to that is? Showing the analog output of a DAC that improved, post the method, and be confident in it and invite Amir to do same said and confirm the findings. 

 

 

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Here is an eye pattern w/o any added gizmo. Image from Tektronix.

 

 

So my question is: What device is being shown in the eye patterns supplied by Alex?

 

What would the eye pattern test look like with a good USB hub?

 

Where are the analog output measurements showing a DAC incapable of keeping it together?

 

As long as samples in the Mask Compliance and Mask Margin are not in the keep-out area you are good to go with either eye pattern. 

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20 minutes ago, firedog said:

I never made any negative comment about JA or his measurements. Again, as Alex has said he would be willing to send an ISO Regen to JA for review and meansuement, I'm not sure how any of this has anything to do with me having an agenda. 

 

I have my opinions. What "agenda" do you think I have?

 

Amir came to the same result as JA but Amir is somehow a problem child for it and JA is not. That's the definition of having an agenda Jabbr. 

 

Amir has never name called but he is respectfully vocal. There's a difference. 

 

My bottom line is that Alex said he would blind evaluate his own product and then disappeared. This is egregious compared to anything Amir has said. Alex's reputation is mud to me currently. 

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3 minutes ago, lmitche said:

That's right, I forgot that for some they need to see one of these: 

Before they trust their ears.  Have fun with that!

 

If Alex doesn't trust his ears (he backed out of it like a scalded pig) why should I? And yes Alex is asking people to trust his ears before he or someone else says "I'm not asking you to trust my ears, I'm asking you to trust yours". If you weren't asking people to trust your ears you wouldn't be developing this product for sale. 

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Just now, lmitche said:

It is Amir's behavior that Alex doesn't trust.

 

At least Alex has the courage and conviction to bring a new product to market.  He did something.  Amir is just a pundit with a bias, all talk and no skin in the game.

 

Here's the perfect defense against Slander: "The Truth". Alex is welcome to present it anytime he chooses to. 

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2 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

 Is the marketplace not filled with audio companies offering rafts of afforable-to-pricey add-ons, cables, sources, DACs, etc. for which no measurements are offered and for which far more outrageous claims of SQ improvement are made? Where is your outrage over them? 

 

 

 

You may want to take a look at the two threads where I tested $699 3 foot Ethernet and $340 12 foot Ethernet cable.

 

What DAC can I order, in conjunction with a regenerator, to hear this?

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1 hour ago, mav52 said:

I guess you didn't read this.

 

https://uptoneaudio.com/products/iso-regen

"As with all UpTone products, the ISO REGEN is sold with a 30-day, money-back, satisfaction guarantee. So just buy it and try it! "

 

I found the problem:

 

google "30-day site:uptoneaudio.com" (without the quotes) Look at the number of absolute results that come back. 

 

The standard of practice is to have  site map, at the least, at the bottom of the page that would include items like support, contact us, returns, etc... So when I mentioned there was no verbiage on returns, I was indeed correct. 

 

I've been on the site in the past and couldn't find anything about a trial period. It also bears repeating, I'm always up for a get together and try some permutations out. 

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5 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

Wow, when you have it out for someone you really dig deep :~)

 

Yep. I have no idea where I pull all these crazy concepts from....

 

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8 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

Perhaps, you misunderstood what I was getting at. The concept isn't crazy, but it's so far away form the context of this conversation and you also raise it as if to push off responsibility on to Alex, for something you didn't find on your own. In other words, it's a sideshow that would only be brought up by someone who wasn't a fan of someone else. 

 

No, I'm pointing out that a online retailer is simply missing some site basics. I'm not pushing anything off. I tried the Schitt Wyrd because they list the returns policy for each product on the respective page. It didn't do anything for my Emotiva Stealth DC-1 so it went back. Same with the AQ Jitterbug. I'm thinking the DC-1 isn't powered by the USB bus and the C-Media in it can be externally powered. 

 

I wanted to try the Uptone Regen awhile ago but didn't see anything about what happens if it didn't do anything for me. Yes I could have called the manufacturer or just deal with an outfit that makes that conspicuous. 

 

Kudos to Alex/Uptone putting the 30 day MBG on their product page BTW. 

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52 minutes ago, jabbr said:

 

There are two sides to this coin:

 

1) Measurements are only good if the correct measurements are done. Any scientist worth their NaCl knows that someone doing a measurement with an agenda will produce skewed results. Even the choice about which measurements to perform or even which equipment to use can affect an agenda and skew results.

 

We know what to measure for because we know the problem the regen is stated to solve. 

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2 hours ago, Jud said:

 

I am not selling the ISO Regen.  I did, however, participate in a blind test of two candidate designs,

 

You might as well blind audition two minidsp with different x-over slopes and topologies for that matter..

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6 hours ago, Jud said:

 

Crossover slopes weren't being tested.  Circuit components were. Would you like to know which of two pieces of equipment performing the same function but  built with different parts sounded better (or if there was no difference)?

 

Jeez. The point is you weren't blind comparing a DAC with and without. You were comparing items that most likely have very measureable differences in output and one of those out putting something so far out of spec that the DAC was expecting it then got sideways. 

 

I mean I'm pretty sure I could feed a DAC something out of spec that it isn't expecting / designed for, say 120V, and wouldn't even need any speakers connected to tell the difference. 

 

Also did you ever consider that you have $655 worth of gadgets driving a $349 DAC and that taking that $1000 you could have absolutely dumped the entire, problematic USB system, for a TEAC NT 503, Cambridge Audio, or the like and went Ethernet were even the designer of the Uptone product line very much doubts that with an in spec cable Ethernet audio devices could be affected? 

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11 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

Since John Swenson says that he doesn't have the instrumentation to measure the effect on jitter (yet), then any audible improvement claimed for the device, at least for now, must remain a conjecture, an educated guess.

 

I'm at a loss how:

 

1. You can guess at a problem that you can't quantify so you can see what's going on but...

 

2. Still develop a solution 'in the blind' for it (whatever 'it' is)

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4 hours ago, Jud said:

 

 

 

By the way, I believe what "the other person" said was that he couldn't find it in Google or in the site footer, if I understand him correctly.  If I do, it would leave you as the only one claiming to have read that full product page and not found it.

 

That was me and what I'm saying is in the PAST *You know that thing that happens long ago* there was no text on the Uptone site about a 30 day MBG. And I'm 100% correct in this. How do I know this? I hit the Internet Wayback machine and found a capture of the site that was after the last time I visited and there was zero text about a 30 day MBG. 

 

Fast forward to today and google-foo for a 30-day MBG and the only page it comes up on is the ISO Regen page. Since I have spell out the obvious: If that text is only on the ISO Regen page, it means it's not on any of the other pages, ergo, it didn't exist on the site prior to the ISO regen page. 

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4 minutes ago, mav52 said:

 

Interesting, back in 2015 in on the 'Mono and Stereo' site, they note  on the USB product " UpTone Audio has a 30 days money back guarantee, so you can try before buy " 

 

I would recommend that Uptone added in the FAQ area a note about the 30 day return policy that supports ALL products. As its only noted on the ISO Reng, which makes it rather confusing.

 

Thanks. That's the only point I was trying to get across. I even posted a few times what I did to find the discrepancy. 

 

Again most sites have a footer that is on every page. With content creation systems like WIX you can often have a website of Uptones caliber in about 4-5 hours using a good template and have those standards of web page interaction up and running. If your entire business is transacted over the web, product information, sales inquiry, ordering etc... It would benefit from having best practices implemented. 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, mansr said:

The Steinberg has much lower noise overall. This is a wider plot with ~1 Hz resolution:

 

That kills the audiophiIe styled DAC. The UR242 is $139.  Is this with balanced / XLR on the Steinberg? If so this lines up with the testing Amir started doing with the $79 Behringer and he didn't even capture the balanced output, only the singled ended. 

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6 minutes ago, mansr said:

The Steinberg has balanced TRS jacks. In fairness to iFi, their more expensive models are significantly better than the Nano.

They aren't significantly close to $139 either. 

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19 minutes ago, mansr said:

Since this thread is, at least tangentially, about isolation devices, I recorded the iFi Nano again. This time I ran the laptops on battery, connected thusly:

[Laptop 1]---<USB>---[iFi]---<RCA>---[Tascam]---<USB>---[Laptop 2].

Only the Tascam interface is connected to AC. Same graphs as before:

The iFi comes out looking much better now.

 

So the USB implementation on the iFi Nano is substandard and the solution is to throw $325-$625 at it vs just getting a $800 DAC in the first place... Makes perfect sense.