A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[the_doc735]

58 minutes ago, austinpop said:

most of us want a DAC that is 100% immune to the upstream chain ....

....but surely all that toxic rubbish is inherent & intrinsic to the electronics, hardware & software? Yes reduce to a minimum level! BUT surely 100% clean is impossible; like you say: "even very expensive DAC's don't achieve this". I would say it is impossible to totally eradicate the toxicity?

[the_doc735]

How high is the obsession level here?

Is the equipment more important than the actual music? e.g. Like guys that repair TV's but never watch any programs!

 

If someone came up with a noise free, ripple free, EMI free, RFI free device/DAC/PSU/server/streamer/renderer/player, would you all concede that the music output can't possibly get any 'better', or would you all still pursue higher sound quality in some other direction perhaps?

 

Very interested to know, genuine, serious question!

 

Respect to all those that are brave enough to answer!

Many Thanks!

 

[the_doc735]

56 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Speaking only for myself, my record (no pun intended!) speaks for itself. Look at my posts in the Album of the Evening, Tidal MQA Gems, Qobuz, and other music threads. It is, and will always be, about the music.

 

As for ever reaching a point where 'it can't get any better'... Is that even a question?!  What true audiophile is ever content with the current state of their system?

 

Folks who are active on this thread like living on the bleeding edge. Let's be real - we'll always be looking for improvements.

 

But take a look at the masthead above: it says Computer Audiophile. Enough said.

thank you for your opinion. Take care, respect!

[the_doc735]

10 hours ago, MikeyFresh said:

 

Not at all, but I do object to the condescending tone and presumptive know-it-all stance of that post.

 

This is particularly true relative to whom it was directed at (the actual thread starter prior to Austinpop's assumption of stewardship), however it almost doesn't even matter who that reply was directed at, statements like " things you obviously know very little about! " and " based on either your limited testing or understanding" are unwarranted, inaccurate, and pompous to say the least.

 

Hence the immediate ignore list election.

Just want to point out that the highlighted texts are not my comments. Thank you. @hopkins  wrote that.

[the_doc735]

Is @vortecjr and the Sonore Company listening to this thread I wonder?

 

They like to base their products on listening to purchasers requests and innovations.

So, do Sonore have any plans for a "load everything to RAM" product ? (or have done already?)

Cheers!

[the_doc735]

On 11/12/2018 at 10:26 PM, Hauser said:

This may be a good time to take a short break from NUCs to share my recent upgraded power supply project.   Although the thread title says 'massively improve', everything in audio is relative and I consider the upgrade significant and well worth the effort if DIY is of interest and for those confident working with AC.

 

The project has involved several months of research, design, execution and a few repairs.  The original construction of the box was to house a TX USB hub Ex and Iso Regen along with a couple of LPS1s and SMPS to power them and accomodate all the associated cabling.

 

Some, probably ill founded, doubts over SMPSs led me to explore the potential to change the supplies to linear, regulated.  I upped the challenge by adding a third supply for the Aries in the same box.   This required external transformers and for aesthetic reasons, toroids with custom stainless covers.

 

More important was the selection of the power boards.  Recommendations from posts on DIY Audio, Audio Asylum and Seeteeyou, suitable dimensions, cost and availability as completed boards made the Studer 900 the board of choice.  The vendor had limited knowledge of the board's performance and suggested testing.  From my testing, the board's power requirements seem similar to the Sigma 11 which is extensively covered on the AMB site and proved to be a valuable source to achieve success.

 

Modding the board by replacing the large cap with an industrial Kemet brought a worthwhile improvement.  Replacing the other caps with Panasonic FCs, nothing conclusive.  Adding the LT3045s made the sound subtly smoother.  I used Toroidy 30VA transformers.  These sustain higher voltages than another commercial transformer I tried.  Schedule 5 Stainless pipe will comfortably sleeve these transformers; I had to ream schedule 10 pipe.

 

Compared to the previous power supplies: more bass and treble extension, better detail and more realistic sound and more stage depth.  

 

For a very modest material cost there is a potential very worthwhile sonic benefit to be had for those with the time available, not to mention the satisfaction.  Just don't get zapped.

 

Martin. 

would you recommend this?

[the_doc735]

@Hauser  fantastic machine you put together there!!

[the_doc735]

1 hour ago, Hauser said:

Lol,

 

Yes, I have gone to considerable time and effort because I think the result is worthwhile and I recommend it.  The vendor says a max of 2A.  The max I have used is 17V and 1A.  If your power requirements are in this range, something you may consider.  Having seen your previous threads and posts, I would suggest your best bet is to go for something boxed and ready to go.

 

Martin.

Did you click on the link to show the item I was referring to?

I just wondered because PeterSt said that all chinese PSU's are junk and will destroy the rest of your gear? I presume that studer900 is chinese?

[the_doc735]

40 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

We have been down this road before, and his post has been referred to Admin.

will no one ever be able to challenge that offensive comment, if they have experience of good quality chinese PSU's? Surely people should be allowed to say that they have experience of good quality chinese PSU's?

[the_doc735]

15 minutes ago, greenleo said:

Thank you Sandy and doc for your replies.  Now I know that I'm just too naïve.  Let's back to our journey.

Agreed! Actually Sandyk had no business interjecting like that because all I did was ask @Hauser if he thought the studer900 was any good, as he was using them in his new project PSU.

[the_doc735]

Well, after Roy, Larry and 'the gang' finish their experiments with the NUC (NUC7CJYH?), maybe somebody will release a commercial audiophile NUC together with the most appropriate software bundled in? They seem to be trying all sorts of stuff and exploring every avenue at the moment!

 

Which NUC is best (NUC7CJYH?)

 

Cheers! 

[the_doc735]

20 hours ago, Hauser said:

Hi Doc,

 

No I didn't click the link so misinterpreted your question,; apologies.  If you Google Studer900 power supply, down the list there is a review of a complete supply with the board enclosed on the 'Audio Asylum ' forum.  It discuses the merits and failings of the supply.

 

Martin

ok many thanks!

[the_doc735]

12 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

 I would expect that current models all have overload protection incorporated.

 Normally, the manufacturer will prevent this happening in the design of the PCB by restricting the amount of adjustment possible, or at least provide warnings in the User Manual.

 

Irrespective, it is never a good idea to adjust the output of a voltage regulator PCB way below the maximum output voltage.

LPSU's in general. Are they not ALL protected? IF they are NOT(!), what to avoid please?

[the_doc735]

12 hours ago, Chopin75 said:

Strange the manufacturer would allow such adjustment if it would actually cause overheat issue. I would check with Hdplex later when I get the LPS.

agreed!

[the_doc735]

1 hour ago, sig8 said:

I have been using AL for few months the improvement in SQ is big so well worth it. I have tried it on three systems and all sounded lot better than Windows based system. so in my opinion the magic is in AL, not NUC,  I think people should try AL on their current systems and see if they get any jump in SQ, I am pretty sure they will.

Can AL be used with ultrarendu 1.4?

Can I try AL on a NUC without other additions?

In this thread members have talked about various SOtM PCIe riser cards and 'clocks', but I didn't think a NUC had any PCIe slots or rear panel clock sockets, so how can they be used (with a NUC)?

Cheers!

[the_doc735]

48 minutes ago, Middy said:

I did post this, most won't use thier NIC card. I ordered an extender to move it away from the board. WIFI for me..

 

(I am not 100% if this works but there are extenders with pci sockets. )

See aliexpress examples here.

https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/cK4ENHSt

I wanted to move NIC and shield it. To see if it helps....

 

Note they seem to have power pins for independant supply? Or flying leads pins for testing. Not sure?

I was mainly referring to the use of SOtM tX-USBexp & sCLK-EX & mutec REF 10?

Cheers!

[the_doc735]

ANYBODY!

 

Can AL be used with ultrarendu 1.4?

Can I try AL on a NUC without other additions?

In this thread members have talked about various SOtM PCIe riser cards and 'clocks', but I didn't think a NUC had any PCIe slots or rear panel clock sockets, so how can they be used (with a NUC)? e.g. referring to the use of SOtM tX-USBexp & sCLK-EX & mutec REF 10? 

Cheers!

[the_doc735]

38 minutes ago, One and a half said:

Is my perception correct in that the 2 PC approach is dwindling, to a single headless PC with Audio Linux on a USB stick, running Roon server?

 

So the 2nd NUC is out, replaced with a single NUC?

No!

[the_doc735]

16 hours ago, Johnseye said:

 

Thanks! I didn't realize. My NUC has no hard drive

???

[the_doc735]

43 minutes ago, sig8 said:

+1. As you said, don't know what is special about NUS's? I tried three different MoBo's and did not find anything special about NUC's. Try AL on what you have.

+2

[the_doc735]

6 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

 

I'm running out of patience with Innuos. in the 15 months I've been in the Innuos ecosystem they've yet to do anything that lifted my SQ - unless you count suggesting I buy the Statement at twice the price. Innuos have suggested they might do something, sometime. Now 15 months later and better library management is all that's offered does not reconcile with my expectations as a flagship customer.

Get a NUC?

[the_doc735]

1 hour ago, seeteeyou said:

IMHO some might interpret all that as another nail in the coffin, others would still fight tooth and nail just for sports or something. Of course one could also propose that we're finally hitting the nail on the head with NUC.

I think with all the information on this thread, if intel are monitoring these developments - and the NUC stock depleting and prices on the up, it's time for Intel to manufacture a bespoke Audio NUC, based on these discoveries 'herein'. I think they would be on to a REAL winner! Anyone agree/disagree? Would they be a giant audiophile equipment KILLER, or would they join the ranks of the giants and MASSIVELY inflate their prices? (e.g. £2000-£10,000?). I'll mark off-topic, just incase.

[the_doc735]

13 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

I think I’ve already mentioned that I don’t get the skipping issue with LMS. So yes, the problem is Roon.

 

But that’s not the point. I don’t want to use LMS. LMS is terrible from a UI perspective.

 

I’m try to see if there’s a way to tune the Roon squeezelite combo to eliminate or greatly reduce the problem.

LMS?

can't find it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LMS (click)

[the_doc735]

22 minutes ago, JohnSwenson said:

LMS definitely does NOT use HTTP for sending audio data. SlimProto is actually a very simple protocol and is used for sending the audio data. It supports several "native" formats, which are essentially the audio data in common file formats. (WAV, FLAC, MP3, probably a couple more). The rest of the file formats get converted in the server into one of these.

 

The only thing HTTP is used for is talking to the web server GUI that is part of the server. If you are using any of the other controllers (hardware or software) HTTP is not used at all.

 

LMS also uses UDP multicast to coordinate servers, controllers and players finding each other on a network, but after they are found the rest happens through SlimProto.

 

John S.

Hi John,

I have several things going on e.g. PC based mini-ITX one box solution with windows 10.

However, my latest start up project involves the microrendu 1.4  and synology ds218+ (+ laptop controller). Do you know what options are available in terms of software implementation? (& how to get these devices to talk to each other?)   ...software streamers/servers/controllers etc. bewildering choice out there! (i.e. free/paid). I may well be adding a ISO REGEN to this quite soon. Any setup instructions on here?

Many Thanks!

[the_doc735]

18 minutes ago, MrUnderhill said:

A few weeks ago I posted this on a thread I started about the SOtM stack:

https://forums.naimaudio.com/topic/sotm-trifecta?reply=77314878523732546#77314878523732546

 

.........

You are right, in digital audio power is CRITICAL. In Naim-world this is mainly taken care of, at a price. I hope you don't mind if I answer this in a circuitous way.

When I got my microRendu I fell in love with the dynamics and the detail, but alongside it came EDGE. It took me 18 months to get that EDGE down to a level that I found acceptable; that is, only the edge that is in the recording!

The solution was in various parts which had a greater or lessor influence, although I found them to be additive. Here I will just discuss what I have done in my front end, not with my servers and files. The parts consisted of:

1. Grounding
   This was a journey. Initially I started out by using Isolation Transformers to try and form a barrier to noise. What I succeeded in doing was highlighting to myself the need for careful consideration of grounding - hums broke out all over!
   Ultimately I realised that I had a number of devices that were powered and used floating earths, in combination with devices that were earthed through their power cables. I bought a standard earthing block and ran a cable from a metal part of every floating earth device back to the block. I then ran a cable from the block to my pre-amp. My intention was to try and have one route to earth.
   This had a small positive effect.
2. LPSU
   I have run through a number of PSUs, including: SMPS cheapos; IFI iPower SMPS; Cheap Chinese LPSU; R-Core LPSUs; and, Uptone LPS-1.
   I have not gone to the expense of a Paul Hynes, but an SR7 is definitely on my wish list, and I have been in contact with Paul.
   I found that GENERALLY, but not always, making a larger current available led to good results; i.e. a 2A supply where 1A is the spec.
   I found cheap SMPS to be dreadful; but, they interestingly emphasised certain frequency ranges.
   The IFIs were a definite step up.
   Cheap LPSUs were on a similar level to the IFI.
   R-Core were better.
   The LPS-1 was detailed and dynamic, but I found I preferred an over specified R-Core overall - but this was a matter of taste.
   This had a moderate positive effect.
3. LT3045
   These cards remove noise, and having tried one I fitted them everywhere I could. You need to make them up in a hobby box with a bit of soldering.
   An R-Core + LT3045 became my PSU of choice, and enabled me to sell my LPS-1s without a worry.
   This had a moderate positive effect.
4. DC Cabling & PoE
   This is an interesting one. The cables used to connect the DC power have a ridiculous influence. The best I have found is a DUAL CAT arrangement using Power over Ethernet (PoE). The CAT cables do matter, and the best to date have been Audioquest. I am using Pearls, but Cinnamon is better. There are some cheap and very effect cables such as the 3M Vandersils CAT8 or Ibra CAT7. Cheap experiment and has to be heard to believe it.
   The DUAL CAT involves doing some DIY on a PoE distribution box to use all eight CAT wires, and then use one cable for +ve and one for -ve.
   This had a moderate positive effect.
5. Digital Cabling (USB/SPDIF)
   I have fought against cable foo for an age, but gave up a few years ago as I couldn't ignore the evidence of my own ears. Many cables are just different, better is another matter.
   In terms of USB I have found a cable that is just all round better to be the IFI Audio Mercury 3.0.
   A friend came around with a Cut Loose SPDIF. This is the cable that Audionote sells as the Black Pallas for large amounts of money. It is extruded silver coated in Palladium and constructed as a ribbon. In my system it had a superb effect ....but, at £2k I don't think so. I found a similar type of cable on ebay for £100, the Nimak Pulsar Mk 2. Not quiet as good but very nice, and not the  rip off I feared it might be.
6. Where to put the BEST power supply
   I played with this a lot. Ultimately I found the best place to be the last hop before my DAC, which in my case is the SingXer-F1. It needs 5V 0.5A. It is being powered by a a 6A 8V R-Core LPSU via DUAL CAT PoE into a 5V 1A LT3045; currently using 3M Vandersils CAT8 which I am testing in place of my usual CAT7 AQ Pearls. I will be also trying the AQ Cinnamon in due course.

Why repeat this all here?

A couple of pages ago it was suggested that streaming from my NAS may be better than having directly attached storage. This goes against the moves I have been doing for some time where I found an LPSU powered Raspberry Pi with attached USB sticks, hosted on a StarTech extender, was better than my NAS. I had then attached this StarTech to my AL/Prestige 2 LMS server. However, as we know that leaving a USB stick attached to the AL box degrades the sound quality I thought I would recheck my findings.

 

Surprisingly, to me, the sound quality from my NAS was a LOT closer now then it ever has been. Why? I suspect that it MAY be due to the Power over Ethernet (PoE) I have put in place. Either way on the whole I still prefer the USB hosted files, but it is by NO means a slam dunk:

 

NAS - Files sound slightly darker. A tad more thickness in the midrange. Some cymbal work splashier.
USB - More clearly defined detail. Bass more clearly delineated. Here further into the mix.

 

Depending on the file then I can occasionally prefer the NAS as the host.

 

As a final test I took the StarTech out of the loop (something suggested by a friend on another thread), and attached the USB3.0 Hub that I attach to it directly to the AL/LMS - I think it is a tad better again .....still listening.

 

My gut feeling is that a lot of the widgets I have used historically have been to handle the effects of badly managed power. That once that is sorted a lot of the props I have been using can be removed - just takes an OCD level of attention!

 

M

thanks for the great detail here! I won't pretend I understand everything you have said but to me it is very interesting overall.