Mapleshade Bedrock Speaker Stands

[17629v2]

mea culpa... I own a tube pre-amp

 

 

OTOH, it is a very neutral sounding tube pre...

 

It is. A lot of people didn't like SF just for that reason. Personally, I think they made great preamps. I had one myself.

[Jud]

blind testing is considered essential in overcoming confirmation bias, which is a huge problem

 

I agree it is essential to use some means of overcoming bias. What means to use is the question.

[4est]

It MAY be air dried in the correct sense, but I feel their literature may be stretching the truth. They claim their boards are "hand planed" by Amish crafts persons. I can pretty much guarantee someone did not use a hand plane to size those boards to thickness.

 

They also appear to use wormy soft maple as opposed to hard maple FWIW. Instruments use hard maple. Jud is correct however, in that the heat does change the nature of the wood's cellulose bonds. Audible in a stand? Unlikely...

 

I don't think, based on my research in the scientific literature, that double (or the more common single) blind testing is effective for most situations that audiophiles are concerned with. However, I agree another board of the same material, construction and dimensions should sound the same, with the possible exception that Mapleshade's maple is air dried, which is a rarity - by far the majority of maple lumber is kiln dried. If you read lumber yard and furniture maker websites, you will find that air dried maple is acknowledged to have less internal stress, all else being equal, than kiln dried maple. The possibility that this would make a difference in the resonant behavior of the wood and have audible results seems pretty tenuous to me, but I can't dismiss it on any scientific basis, so I've included it in my reply.

[Jud]

It MAY be air dried in the correct sense, but I feel their literature may be stretching the truth. They claim their boards are "hand planed" by Amish crafts persons. I can pretty much guarantee someone did not use a hand plane to size those boards to thickness.

 

They also appear to use wormy soft maple as opposed to hard maple FWIW. Instruments use hard maple. Jud is correct however, in that the heat does change the nature of the wood's cellulose bonds. Audible in a stand? Unlikely...

 

I don't doubt it was hand planed at some point.

 

Yes, exactly, they use wormy (a/k/a "ambrosia") maple, considered soft maple.

 

While some instruments may use hard maple, softwoods are used in many acoustic instruments. (The Martin guitar plant is not far, and many of their guitars use spruce tops.)

[Jud]

Some ideas instead of solid maple (though maple works great). Build a 3 inch deep wood box, fill with sand, glue on a top piece of wood to seal. Of course leave the corners thick enough for the threaded rod legs. A variation of this is used for benchtop stands for analytical balances. Those aren't accurate or repeatable if you have vibration corrupting results.

Or use two pieces of plywood or other thin wood. Place damping material in between, and clamp the two pieces together with the threaded rod nuts for each shelf. You can adjust clamping force for each shelf. Adjustable constrained mode damping. Permatex gasket material works well, but is nasty. Vinyl flooring is nearly as good and clean. You could use felt sheets. You could think of other materials. You want something that when you bend it the bend stays rather than flexing back.

 

Best version of all for vibration. Build your self a 6 inch deep box. Fill with sand about 4 inches deep. Cut top for the box with half inch gap all the way around. Float top on sand without touching the rest of the box. This is particularly good for turntables.

 

When I bought my first Vandersteens in the late '80s, they included their own substantial metal stands, which I filled with sand as directed. A while later I purchased the Sound Anchors stands, which were also metal and of similar construction, but I think they were filled with something other than sand. (I spoke to the Sound Anchors principal on the phone and he was kind enough to go into some of the construction details. I believe I recall him saying they weren't sand-filled, but I don't recall what the specific material was, or even if he told me what it was, or just that it wasn't sand.) The speakers sounded better to me with the new stands.

 

So *if* I recall correctly it was something other than sand, and *if* my notion the speakers sounded better with the new stands was correct, then all we need to do is find the "secret filling" of the Sound Anchors stands and fill the box with *that*.

[semente]

When I bought my first Vandersteens in the late '80s, they included their own substantial metal stands, which I filled with sand as directed. A while later I purchased the Sound Anchors stands, which were also metal and of similar construction, but I think they were filled with something other than sand. (I spoke to the Sound Anchors principal on the phone and he was kind enough to go into some of the construction details. I believe I recall him saying they weren't sand-filled, but I don't recall what the specific material was, or even if he told me what it was, or just that it wasn't sand.) The speakers sounded better to me with the new stands.

 

So *if* I recall correctly it was something other than sand, and *if* my notion the speakers sounded better with the new stands was correct, then all we need to do is find the "secret filling" of the Sound Anchors stands and fill the box with *that*.

 

Ha, ha, that made me laugh.

 

Perhaps the secret filling is used hairless Sphynx cat litter box filling...

The ancient Egyptian were great believers in magic and worshiped a cat goddess.

 

R

[4est]

Well, I do doubt it, on multiple levels. The first of which is the misconception that the Amish do not use machines because they are opposed to electricity. Around here they strip off the electric motors and replace them with hydraulic ones powered by an engine, and rechargeable batteries charged by an "English" neighbor ala the milkman.

 

Of course softwoods are used in instruments. Soft maple is not a "softwood", but a sub species of maple that is softer than hard maple. I have never seen, nor heard of soft maple being used in instruments. It has much different characteristics than hard maple, and closer to something like poplar than hard maple. FWIW, I LOVE wormy soft maple and have some racks and stands made out of it as well.

I don't doubt it was hand planed at some point.

 

Yes, exactly, they use wormy (a/k/a "ambrosia") maple, considered soft maple.

 

While some instruments may use hard maple, softwoods are used in many acoustic instruments. (The Martin guitar plant is not far, and many of their guitars use spruce tops.)

[Jud]

Well, I do doubt it, on multiple levels. The first of which is the misconception that the Amish do not use machines because they are opposed to electricity. Around here they strip off the electric motors and replace them with hydraulic ones powered by an engine, and rechargeable batteries charged by an "English" neighbor ala the milkman.

 

Hi Forrest. I should have clarified what I meant in my previous response by the emphasized phrase "at some point." I meant it's not unlikely a hand plane was used to bevel corners, smooth or round a surface, etc., in producing finished products. But yes, I absolutely agree the lumber that was fabricated into those products was not hand planed in the process of making it into boards. (By the way, almost every item of furniture in our house, plus our kitchen and our bathroom vanities, came from Amish and Mennonite craftsmen my wife and I met with personally at their shops, so I'm familiar with the various methods they use in fabrication.)

 

Edit: I should mention that Forrest is a wood craftsman in Michigan, if anyone has a home thereabouts where they're looking to have some fine work done.

Of course softwoods are used in instruments. Soft maple is not a "softwood", but a sub species of maple that is softer than hard maple. I have never seen, nor heard of soft maple being used in instruments. It has much different characteristics than hard maple, and closer to something like poplar than hard maple. FWIW, I LOVE wormy soft maple and have some racks and stands made out of it as well.

 

Yep. I was just wanting to be fair and mention that it isn't necessary for a wood to be hard in order for it to be used in some parts of some musical instruments. (Though in other parts hardness/stiffness is highly desirable. The density of the maple used in the back, ribs and neck of Stradivarius instruments is one of the many factors involved in speculation about the reasons for their reputed superiority.) However, the key as you say is that although Mapleshade mentions musical instruments, ambrosia maple is used for decorative purposes rather than instruments.

[witchdoctor]

It MAY be air dried in the correct sense, but I feel their literature may be stretching the truth. They claim their boards are "hand planed" by Amish crafts persons. I can pretty much guarantee someone did not use a hand plane to size those boards to thickness.

 

They also appear to use wormy soft maple as opposed to hard maple FWIW. Instruments use hard maple. Jud is correct however, in that the heat does change the nature of the wood's cellulose bonds. Audible in a stand? Unlikely...

 

The synergy of maple, brass, rubber and cork works in my system, YMMV.

The upgrade for me was HUGE

[witchdoctor]

When I bought my first Vandersteens in the late '80s, they included their own substantial metal stands, which I filled with sand as directed. A while later I purchased the Sound Anchors stands, which were also metal and of similar construction, but I think they were filled with something other than sand. (I spoke to the Sound Anchors principal on the phone and he was kind enough to go into some of the construction details. I believe I recall him saying they weren't sand-filled, but I don't recall what the specific material was, or even if he told me what it was, or just that it wasn't sand.) The speakers sounded better to me with the new stands.

 

So *if* I recall correctly it was something other than sand, and *if* my notion the speakers sounded better with the new stands was correct, then all we need to do is find the "secret filling" of the Sound Anchors stands and fill the box with *that*.

 

In all seriousness I hear some people use kitty litter.

[semente]

Hi Forrest. I should have clarified what I meant in my previous response by the emphasized phrase "at some point." I meant it's not unlikely a hand plane was used to bevel corners, smooth or round a surface, etc., in producing finished products. But yes, I absolutely agree the lumber that was fabricated into those products was not hand planed in the process of making it into boards. (By the way, almost every item of furniture in our house, plus our kitchen and our bathroom vanities, came from Amish and Mennonite craftsmen my wife and I met with personally at their shops, so I'm familiar with the various methods they use in fabrication.)

 

Edit: I should mention that Forrest is a wood craftsman in Michigan, if anyone has a home thereabouts where they're looking to have some fine work done.

 

 

Yep. I was just wanting to be fair and mention that it isn't necessary for a wood to be hard in order for it to be used in some parts of some musical instruments. (Though in other parts hardness/stiffness is highly desirable. The density of the maple used in the back, ribs and neck of Stradivarius instruments is one of the many factors involved in speculation about the reasons for their reputed superiority.) However, the key as you say is that although Mapleshade mentions musical instruments, ambrosia maple is used for decorative purposes rather than instruments.

 

I find the mentioning of musical instruments in audio equipment "literature" misleading, since these are not meant to be used for playing but for reproducing music, which is something entirely different.

It'll immediately trigger off my "bulldung" alarm.

 

In my opinion a loudspeaker stand should provide:

1 - the correct height

2 - stability

3 - an inaudible resonant behaviour

 

R

[Jud]

I find the mentioning of musical instruments in audio equipment "literature" misleading, since these are not meant to be used for playing but for reproducing music, which is something entirely different.

It'll immediately trigger off my "bulldung" alarm.

 

In my opinion a loudspeaker stand should provide:

1 - the correct height

2 - stability

3 - an inaudible resonant behaviour

 

R

 

Agreed on all counts, with the possible addition of a #4, reducing a speaker's self resonant behavior, and #5, isolating speakers from external resonances, insofar as possible.

[esldude]

In all seriousness I hear some people use kitty litter.

 

Yes, they do. I wish I had it handy as a link, but some folks did some accelerometer testing using kitty litter, sand, lead shot, combined lead shot and sand. Compared to nothing, the kitty litter was a bit better. There was little if any difference in sand vs sand/lead shot. Lead shot was best. Sand, sand with shot, and just lead shot were all a relatively good amount better than kitty litter.

[semente]

Agreed on all counts, with the possible addition of a #4, reducing a speaker's self resonant behavior, and #5, isolating speakers from external resonances, insofar as possible.

 

I thought of adding number 5 but since there is no agreement on whether speakers should be isolated or coupled I chose to leave it out.

 

And if number 4 is to be considered then it's mandatory that the manufacturer provides measurements proving any claims.

 

R

[esldude]

When I bought my first Vandersteens in the late '80s, they included their own substantial metal stands, which I filled with sand as directed. A while later I purchased the Sound Anchors stands, which were also metal and of similar construction, but I think they were filled with something other than sand. (I spoke to the Sound Anchors principal on the phone and he was kind enough to go into some of the construction details. I believe I recall him saying they weren't sand-filled, but I don't recall what the specific material was, or even if he told me what it was, or just that it wasn't sand.) The speakers sounded better to me with the new stands.

 

So *if* I recall correctly it was something other than sand, and *if* my notion the speakers sounded better with the new stands was correct, then all we need to do is find the "secret filling" of the Sound Anchors stands and fill the box with *that*.

 

Just guessing, but I bet Sound Anchor didn't want to ship stands with lead shot. It is possible they used some shot like that used in shotgun shells. The two main types would be bismuth shot and some variation on tungsten, brass or tungsten, brass, iron alloys. None of these have the toxic issues of lead. They also wouldn't have the issues of moisture absorption of sand.

 

Or maybe it was something different they found better. Something really secret. Like epoxy coated sawdust.

[semente]

Yes, they do. I wish I had it handy as a link, but some folks did some accelerometer testing using kitty litter, sand, lead shot, combined lead shot and sand. Compared to nothing, the kitty litter was a bit better. There was little if any difference in sand vs sand/lead shot. Lead shot was best. Sand, sand with shot, and just lead shot were all a relatively good amount better than kitty litter.

But they did not test the used hairless-Sphynx-cat kitty litter which has magical properties.

[esldude]

But they did not test the used hairless-Sphynx-cat kitty litter which has magical properties.

 

Yes, I suppose someone could do another test. Magical Egyptian Sphynx cat litter, sand from near the Pyramids, and ground up quartz healing crystals infused with Shamanic energy.

[Jud]

Just guessing, but I bet Sound Anchor didn't want to ship stands with lead shot. It is possible they used some shot like that used in shotgun shells. The two main types would be bismuth shot and some variation on tungsten, brass or tungsten, brass, iron alloys. None of these have the toxic issues of lead. They also wouldn't have the issues of moisture absorption of sand.

 

Or maybe it was something different they found better. Something really secret. Like epoxy coated sawdust.

Well, it's really secret. Quotes from their web site:

 

Our latest generation of floor standing bases incorporates all that we have learned. We increase the footprint size for stability, we spike them at the floor to mass load and further stabilize the system, and we fill the bases with various proprietary materials to absorb and control system energy.

 

All Sound Anchor 4 Post Monitor Stands are pre-filled at the factory with special materials to make them acoustically dead. This adds mass and ensures that they will not add any sound of their own to that of your speaker. It also adds to convenience as the audiophile does not need to fill them.

 

Sound Anchor 801 Matrix Stands come from the factory filled with our proprietary filling that has been optimized to eliminate unwanted resonance. You do not need to mess with sand or shot. Sound Anchor 802 Matrix Stands come with 3 heavy duty spikes to ensure maximum stability and a limited transfer of energy to the floor.

 

These seem in general to be non-outlandish claims.

 

By the way, something at the back of my mind says epoxy coated sawdust seems familiar. Real life example?

[witchdoctor]

Yes, they do. I wish I had it handy as a link, but some folks did some accelerometer testing using kitty litter, sand, lead shot, combined lead shot and sand. Compared to nothing, the kitty litter was a bit better. There was little if any difference in sand vs sand/lead shot. Lead shot was best. Sand, sand with shot, and just lead shot were all a relatively good amount better than kitty litter.

 

Someone had a lot of time on their hands but thanks for taking the hit for the team, good to know.

Another good reason to use wooden stands, less work.

[witchdoctor]

Yes, I suppose someone could do another test. Magical Egyptian Sphynx cat litter, sand from near the Pyramids, and ground up quartz healing crystals infused with Shamanic energy.

 

If we put that on kickstarter maybe we can make some $$$

 

[witchdoctor]

Epoxy wood filler example?

 

[17629v2]

It MAY be air dried in the correct sense, but I feel their literature may be stretching the truth. They claim their boards are "hand planed" by Amish crafts persons. I can pretty much guarantee someone did not use a hand plane to size those boards to thickness.

 

You guys are way to negative, and have some serious trust issues. Someone had to stand there and feed the planer by hand.

[witchdoctor]

Yes the money does come into it. My oak speaker stands were $60 each. Get the computer off the floor is critical especially if its the major source as mine is. From your photo it looks like a tower. Best to put it in a horizontal case like a silverstone or like, then will go on that spare shelf. Computers are as fickle as any audio component for vibration. Otherwise put your centre speaker on the other side and your tower in its place. You would have to move your racks to the right to get the centre somewhat in the midfield. Or run the tower on its side but keep vents clear. No good if you use disc player though.

 

Thanks for the reminder about the PC. I took my extra bedrock stand out of the closet, placed the PC on it with 4 of those rubber and cork pads between the PC and the maple. Sound is more clear and the bonus I didn't expect is the video improved too!

[robocop]

Hi witchdoctor certainly don't use anything that contains rubber or sorbothane between component and shelf or stand. These are some of the worst materials.

 

I still use blu-tac between speakers and stands. Between components and shelves I use cut up bamboo cutting board rectangles about 20 x 15 x 30mm stood on 15mm edge. The downside is the component can move especially a CD player(I have a white stone sitting on this to counteract this).

 

I use to use solid copper discs(25mm dia x 20mm thick) and aluminium which I made. I have tried brass cones and still use them under my granite to floor under my subs which are spiked to granite.

 

Robert

[robocop]

They claim their boards are "hand planed" by Amish crafts persons. I can pretty much guarantee someone did not use a hand plane to size those boards to thickness.

 

Not sure what effect "hand planed" would have on the end result. I suspect nothing. Generally all wood is machined these days bar some handmade to order furniture detail. Even these can be made on a machine. Perhaps they are implying this is de stressing for the wood. Something I've not heard off. In terms of metals this is a reality especially after casting or pressuring metals into shapes.

 

In terms of wood or timber different parts of the same tree sound different and react in a different way to another. As also each tree is slightly different to another.

 

Stradivarius spent years making violins and checking this effect experimenting. It would seem we have not been able to repeat his process today with all we have.

 

Quote form Wiki re Stradivarius

 

The wood used included spruce for the top, willow for the internal blocks and linings, and maple for the back, ribs, and neck.

 

A comparative study published in PLOS ONE in 2008[4] found no significant differences in median densities between modern and classical violins, or between classical violins from different origins; instead the survey of several modern and classical examples of violins highlighted a notable distinction when comparing density differentials. These results suggest that differences in density differentials in the material may have played a significant role in the sound production of classical violins. A later survey, focused on comparing median densities in both classical and modern violin examples, questioned the role available materials may have played in sound production differences, though it made no comment on variations in density differentials.

 

If this has a bearing on instrument playing then its as critical for a speaker or component and all materials.

 

Robert