Mapleshade Bedrock Speaker Stands

[Ralf11]

if you believe in something hard enough it will come true

 

 

I guess that explains why there aren't any made out of pine or other soft woods

[semente]

I guess that explains why there aren't any made out of pine or other soft woods

 

 

The joint's called maple shade for a reason, although for his own gear the designer seems to prefer lead.

But lead's been banned in Europe and probably in the U.S. as well.

 

R

[witchdoctor]

 

The joint's called maple shade for a reason, although for his own gear the designer seems to prefer lead.

But lead's been banned in Europe and probably in the U.S. as well.

 

R

 

FYI

 

[h=4]Tonewood[edit][/h]Maple is considered a tonewood, or a wood that carries sound waves well, and is used in numerous musical instruments. Maple is harder and has a brighter sound than mahogany, which is another major tonewood used in instrument manufacture.^[17]

The back, sides, and neck of most violins, violas, cellos, and double basses are made from maple.

Electric guitar necks are commonly made from maple, having good dimensional stability. The necks of the Fender Stratocaster andTelecaster were originally an entirely maple one piece neck, but later were also available with rosewood fingerboards. Les Paul desired an all maple guitar, but due to the weight of maple, only the tops of Gibson's Les Paul guitars are made from carved maple, often using quilted or flamed maple tops. Due to its weight, very few solid body guitars are made entirely from maple, but many guitars have maple necks, tops or veneers.

Maple is also often used to make bassoons and sometimes for other woodwind instruments like maple recorders.

Many drums are made from maple. From the 70s to the 90s, maple drum kits were a vast majority of all drum kits made, but in recent years, birch has become popular for drums once again. Some of the best drum-building companies use maple extensively throughout their mid-pro range.^[4] Maple drums are favored for their bright resonant sound.^[18] Certain types of drum sticks are also made from maple.

[semente]

Sorry, you've somehow made it into my ignore list and now I can't see your posts.

[witchdoctor]

Sorry, you've somehow made it into my ignore list and now I can't see your posts.

 

 

I thought we were going to be friends??

[Ralf11]

tonewoods are used in very thin sheets and are subject to large resonant energy in an enclosure (stringed instrument or drum)

 

not seeing this in a spkr stand, but I'm willing to look at their data

[witchdoctor]

tonewoods are used in very thin sheets and are subject to large resonant energy in an enclosure (stringed instrument or drum)

 

not seeing this in a spkr stand, but I'm willing to look at their data

 

The key is they use maple. They way you use it to create an instrument are different than a speaker stand but it carries sound waves very well regardless. Once I used it in my system I could hear the benefit immediately. Check out how a maple platform helped under a turntable;:

 

http://www.audioasylum.com/reviews/Accessory/Mapleshade/Isolation-Platform/vinyl/205525.html

 

or his maple racks

 

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue14/mapleshadesamson.htm

[Jud]

If there are blatant are technical reasons, such as those I've described for the Bedrocks, that affect performance negatively then there's absolutely no need to listen to an equipment or accessory, just as it isn't necessary to drive a car with square wheels to know it won't move.

Audio is first and foremost about science.

 

R

 

P. S. I might listen to Mapleshade's recording if they are free and the music interests me and if this happens I will start a new topic dedicated to that subject. This is not the place to do it.

 

Hi Ricardo. You certainly have every right to your opinions. However, I think one of the technical reasons you have mentioned is not valid, and the other is not necessarily valid.

 

Speakers on the Bedrock stands are not on the floor, and they are likely not firing horizontally, or necessarily in the same direction as the speakers whose measurements you were looking at. The Bedrocks' relatively heavy non-resonant base and the relatively rigid coupling to the speaker should help with both isolation and speaker self-resonance. (This is why casters are the worst of both worlds, because they help with neither.) So what you have correctly cited as bad response may not be true (or at least equally true) of a given set of speakers on the Bedrocks.

 

Your drawing with regard to time alignment is only correct in the situation where the speakers' front panels are perpendicular to a line drawn from the speakers to the listener's ears. Otherwise one could possibly achieve time alignment. (Response from the tweeters might then be somewhat reduced at the listening position due to listening in an off-axis position, but in some speakers this might not be an entirely bad thing.)

 

So if one is being scientific, one ought to take care that what are stated as absolutes in fact apply in absolutely every relevant situation. Or to put it another way, you want to minimize potential variables.

 

All that having been said, I'll repeat a remark from another thread: Though I own and like Mapleshade products, I do find some of the marketing copy on their website cringe-inducing.

[semente]

Hi Ricardo. You certainly have every right to your opinions. However, I think one of the technical reasons you have mentioned is not valid, and the other is not necessarily valid.

 

Speakers on the Bedrock stands are not on the floor, and they are likely not firing horizontally, or necessarily in the same direction as the speakers whose measurements you were looking at. The Bedrocks' relatively heavy non-resonant base and the relatively rigid coupling to the speaker should help with both isolation and speaker self-resonance. (This is why casters are the worst of both worlds, because they help with neither.) So what you have correctly cited as bad response may not be true (or at least equally true) of a given set of speakers on the Bedrocks.

 

Your drawing with regard to time alignment is only correct in the situation where the speakers' front panels are perpendicular to a line drawn from the speakers to the listener's ears. Otherwise one could possibly achieve time alignment. (Response from the tweeters might then be somewhat reduced at the listening position due to listening in an off-axis position, but in some speakers this might not be an entirely bad thing.)

 

So if one is being scientific, one ought to take care that what are stated as absolutes in fact apply in absolutely every relevant situation. Or to put it another way, you want to minimize potential variables.

 

All that having been said, I'll repeat a remark from another thread: Though I own and like Mapleshade products, I do find some of the marketing copy on their website cringe-inducing.

 

Hi Jud,

 

Despite your disclaimer it still sounds a lot as if you feel emotionally compelled to defend the Bedrocks, which are nonsense design wise (I'm not commenting their other products, nor their recordings, although I've noticed that the used their mics flat against an acrylic sheet and my guess is that it'll sound similar to one of us placing our ear against a wall...there are a couple of tracks in youtube but I don't know where the kids have placed my headphones).

I can understand that you may like some of Mapleshade's products but even the mighty manufacturers produce duds.

 

If you look at the Spendor measurements you'll see that all frequencies are affected.

Yes, their speakers are not tilted but most conventional speakers become quasi-omnidirectional in the lower frequencies and omni in the bass so tilting would only minimise the effect in the upper midrange and treble. But, placing a speaker close to a surface will create reflections that affect balance and produce comb filtering, etc. in the upper-mid and top.

Standmount speakers on the floor is wrong, tilted or vertical.

You could try to DSP-out the effects in the lower range and use waveguides for squawkers and tweeters but I don't think Mapleshade provides these; do they provide instructions regarding tilting adjustment, an imperative requisite for time-alignment?

And do all speakers really need physical time alignment?

 

Will some speakers sound better in Bedrocks to some people?

Who cares...

 

(I don't understand why you are bringing the casters to this thread.

They do not belong in this discussion, although you seem to keep on bringing them up to distract from the Bedrock flop.

I mentioned them because they'd be very practical, assuming that Chris will be using heavy stands and probably wants them out of his room when not needed.

They're not the best option, Townshend platforms would perhaps be more adequate, but neither are spikes and people use them all the time.

Anyway, casters are off topic.)

 

My drawing is roughly based in the topology and dimensions of the Paradigm Active 40, which is the fellow's set of speakers.

And the reason I mentioned time-alignment is because Maple shade is pushing it as something important which can be achieved by using their wooden bases.

I ask again: how will the user determine the exact or precise tilting to achieve time alignment at his listening spot, something that would only be possible with two-way speakers anyway?

 

I've had to physically align my drivers before when I was experimenting with horns and it proved a bit challenging to balance the weight of the midrange horn over a slim stand.

 

 

In this photo the midrange horns are too high but that stand was just an experimental model:

 

 

I may not be omniscient in regards to speaker design and in-room response but I'm not a complete ignorant either.

 

R

[semente]

P.S. Horns are very directional and might even work on Bedrocks...

[Jud]

I've noticed that the used their mics flat against an acrylic sheet and my guess is that it'll sound similar to one of us placing our ear against a wall...there are a couple of tracks in youtube but I don't know where the kids have placed my headphones).

 

If you look at the Spendor measurements you'll see that all frequencies are affected.

Yes, their speakers are not tilted but most conventional speakers become quasi-omnidirectional in the lower frequencies and omni in the bass so tilting would only minimise the effect in the upper midrange and treble. But, placing a speaker close to a surface will create reflections that affect balance and produce comb filtering, etc. in the upper-mid and top.

Standmount speakers on the floor is wrong, tilted or vertical.

 

Will some speakers sound better in Bedrocks to some people?

Who cares...

 

My drawing is roughly based in the topology and dimensions of the Paradigm Active 40, which is the fellow's set of speakers.

And the reason I mentioned time-alignment is because Maple shade is pushing it as something important which can be achieved by using their wooden bases.

I ask again: how will the user determine the exact or precise tilting to achieve time alignment at his listening spot, something that would only be possible with two-way speakers anyway?

 

 

R

 

Regarding the microphones:

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boundary_microphone

 

Based on your drawing I had understood you earlier to be saying time alignment with these stands was physically impossible. Perhaps I misunderstood. Now I understand you to be saying it would be an uncertain and difficult process without knowing what you are doing. I agree.

 

Of course it is not only stand mount speakers on low stands that have drivers subject to floor bounce. Virtually every subwoofer on the market and a large number of floorstanding speakers share the same characteristic. So if Pierre is clueless in this respect, at least he has a great deal of company.

[witchdoctor]

Regarding the microphones:

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boundary_microphone

 

Based on your drawing I had understood you earlier to be saying time alignment with these stands was physically impossible. Perhaps I misunderstood. Now I understand you to be saying it would be an uncertain and difficult process without knowing what you are doing. I agree.

 

Of course it is not only stand mount speakers on low stands that have drivers subject to floor bounce. Virtually every subwoofer on the market and a large number of floorstanding speakers share the same characteristic. So if Pierre is clueless in this respect, at least he has a great deal of company.

 

Jud, everyone misunderstands semente, he is making up a story based on a product he never used designed with principles he doesn't even understand.

Trying to explain it to him is not going to help. He started this thread just to troll me when Chris got fed up with our back and forth in the other thread. This is all about him being right and making everyone else wrong. It is just a waste of time I am afraid.

[semente]

Regarding the microphones:

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boundary_microphone

 

Based on your drawing I had understood you earlier to be saying time alignment with these stands was physically impossible. Perhaps I misunderstood. Now I understand you to be saying it would be an uncertain and difficult process without knowing what you are doing. I agree.

 

Of course it is not only stand mount speakers on low stands that have drivers subject to floor bounce. Virtually every subwoofer on the market and a large number of floorstanding speakers share the same characteristic. So if Pierre is clueless in this respect, at least he has a great deal of company.

 

 

If I'm not mistaken there are more than a handful of designers using some form or another of floor-bounce compensation.

Here's Paul Barton's take (PSB):

 

 

R

[Ralf11]

"The key is they use maple... it carries sound waves very well regardless"

 

This is a problem, not a solution. You want a stand to not move or resonate at all.

[Jud]

"The key is they use maple... it carries sound waves very well regardless"

 

This is a problem, not a solution. You want a stand to not move or resonate at all.

 

I agree. I don't think a 4 inch thick hunk of maple is going to be very resonant, though.

[witchdoctor]

I agree. I don't think a 4 inch thick hunk of maple is going to be very resonant, though.

 

If you read Pierre's interview posted on my other thread the way the system is designed is to drain the vibrations out of the speaker or other audio device such as a turntable. The brass supports coupled to the speaker or other device drains the vibrations into the wood.

I had a good result trying the isolation system under my amp, I find with speakers the benefits are even more pronounced.

 

http://mapleshadestore.com/feedback_bedrockstands.php

 

Mapleshade Audio Products

[Jud]

 

If I'm not mistaken there are more than a handful of designers using some form or another of floor-bounce compensation.

Here's Paul Barton's take (PSB):

 

 

R

 

Since there are very few designers using coincident drivers, nearly all multi-driver speakers are using this form of compensation.

 

That word - compensation - is rather a key, isn't it? Anyone who can't afford to hire the Philharmonic and doesn't have a home with a suitable performance space is trying to fit a gallon's worth of performed audio into a pint's worth of home audio reproduction. So compromise and compensation are the order of the day, on both the recording and playback ends.

 

As the ancient Greek saying goes, "The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one great thing." There are many hedgehogs on these forums, telling award-winning producers they don't know how to set up microphones, DAC designers with more than 3 decades of experience that of course USB is the most horrible interface and not worthy of inclusion in an audiophile DAC, etc. The hedgehogs are always alert for violations of the one great truth they know.

 

I, on the other hand, am not smart enough to be a hedgehog. I do not know any great truths. I try to learn a little about compromises others have made to see whether they might be useful for my oh so compromised system. While I have not mistaken my system for the Philharmonic, I do often enjoy listening to it, so that will have to suffice.

[Jud]

If you read Pierre's interview posted on my other thread the way the system is designed is to drain the vibrations out of the speaker or other audio device such as a turntable. The brass supports coupled to the speaker or other device drains the vibrations into the wood.

I had a good result trying the isolation system under my amp, I find with speakers the benefits are even more pronounced.

 

Mapleshade Audio Products

 

Mapleshade Audio Products

 

Barry Diament says such systems are not isolation systems, but coupling systems (they couple the item on the stand to the floor), and that there is no such thing as a system with the stiffness of wood and metal "draining" vibrations. His explanations (and other similar ones) are persuasive to me. But I am no expert, and could easily be wrong.

[witchdoctor]

Don't think you have to use bookshelves to get this type of upgrade from mapleshade stands. If I invested in a nice set of towers these plinths would be worth an audition:

 

Mapleshade Audio Products

[witchdoctor]

Barry Diament says such systems are not isolation systems, but coupling systems (they couple the item on the stand to the floor), and that there is no such thing as a system with the stiffness of wood and metal "draining" vibrations. His explanations (and other similar ones) are persuasive to me. But I am no expert, and could easily be wrong.

 

Barry knows his stuff, I don't know that either approach is wrong, just which is preferable. I completely agree with his view of not buying new components until you isolate your current ones. I have not tried seismic isolation so can't compare.

[robocop]

"witchdoctor" you own a Salamander rack according to your setup. Why do you not have a Mapleshade rack?

 

I own neither but do largely agree with "Mapleshades" ideas. Having come from all welded steel tube structures(speaker stands and rack), spiked to floor and spiked granite shelves to now American Oak speaker stands(modified small tables spiked to floor only) and American Oak rack floating on carpet(on hardwood floor) no spikes what so ever.

 

Bamboo is an excellent material for stands. I was using bamboo on my steel rack before going to Oak. I believe wood in general has a sympathetic resonance with music. I have not tried solid wood as the theory was by using say plywood or laminated wood helped break up resonances. The Oak rack is laminated and my bamboo shelves were laminated, this does make for a very rigid structure. But I guess the glue has a sound which is absent from solid Maple. It all alters the sound and at the end of the day you need to get something that works for you. This is not easy as the logistics of borrowing racks and stands is difficult.

 

I use to manufacture steel racks and speaker stands for 15 years so had chances to compare but in those days I was biased towards welded steel for rigidity and granite shelves for mass.

 

Robert

[witchdoctor]

"witchdoctor" you own a Salamander rack according to your setup. Why do you not have a Mapleshade rack?

 

I own neither but do largely agree with "Mapleshades" ideas. Having come from all welded steel tube structures(speaker stands and rack), spiked to floor and spiked granite shelves to now American Oak speaker stands(modified small tables spiked to floor only) and American Oak rack floating on carpet(on hardwood floor) no spikes what so ever.

 

Bamboo is an excellent material for stands. I was using bamboo on my steel rack before going to Oak. I believe wood in general has a sympathetic resonance with music. I have not tried solid wood as the theory was by using say plywood or laminated wood helped break up resonances. The Oak rack is laminated and my bamboo shelves were laminated, this does make for a very rigid structure. But I guess the glue has a sound which is absent from solid Maple. It all alters the sound and at the end of the day you need to get something that works for you. This is not easy as the logistics of borrowing racks and stands is difficult.

 

I use to manufacture steel racks and speaker stands for 15 years so had chances to compare but in those days I was biased towards welded steel for rigidity and granite shelves for mass.

 

Robert

 

Excellent question about the rack, I scored it on Craigslist cheap:). I have been sprinkling my upgrades toward building an Auro 3D system over the last year. First a new processor, then I added 5 additional speakers. Then I had to get those tall speaker stands along with very long interconnects and power cords ( i use powered speakers all around). I use mapleshades isolation system under my center channel and obviously the bedrock stands. I will eventually get a mapleshade samson rack and if I ever see one come up locally second hand I would jump on it.

The next component to get the isolation treatment is my PC which right now is sitting on the floor.

I think a part of me is also holding back on a new rack because the installation process seems labor intensive.

 

[robocop]

Yes the money does come into it. My oak speaker stands were $60 each. Get the computer off the floor is critical especially if its the major source as mine is. From your photo it looks like a tower. Best to put it in a horizontal case like a silverstone or like, then will go on that spare shelf. Computers are as fickle as any audio component for vibration. Otherwise put your centre speaker on the other side and your tower in its place. You would have to move your racks to the right to get the centre somewhat in the midfield. Or run the tower on its side but keep vents clear. No good if you use disc player though.

[witchdoctor]

Yes the money does come into it. My oak speaker stands were $60 each. Get the computer off the floor is critical especially if its the major source as mine is. From your photo it looks like a tower. Best to put it in a horizontal case like a silverstone or like, then will go on that spare shelf. Computers are as fickle as any audio component for vibration. Otherwise put your centre speaker on the other side and your tower in its place. You would have to move your racks to the right to get the centre somewhat in the midfield. Or run the tower on its side but keep vents clear. No good if you use disc player though.

 

Thanks, I used to have 3 active 40's upfront with 3 bedrock stands until I found the matching center channel. Now I have an extra bedrock stand and am going to try mounting the tower on it. I just need to get some of those rubber pads or brass cones to place under the PC. I had the PC horizontally in the second rack you see on the right next to my salamander for the longest. I placed an amp there for my wide channels (my only passive speakers in the HT) and the PC is now on the floor.I just moved it to the floor for the time being because I want to try the extra bedrock stand I have. I'll probably get the extra pads this week.

[Ralf11]

why not just use a maple cutting board with some cones?