Design a PC/Server for ROON and HQ Player

[craighartley]

What spec is the Windows NAA box going to be?

 

That's a work in prospect. At the moment I'm just using something similar to the CL100 Miska is using, with a quality linear powered supply, and iFi USB 3.0 Nano. I haven't invested much effort and expense in this as yet as Ive been waiting to see if it would become possible to use the microRendu at 512 with the T&A8.

[sydlow]

... Ive been waiting to see if it would become possible to use the microRendu at 512 with the T&A8.

I think many are waiting to see if that becomes possible, but looks pretty unlikely for quite a while

[Miska]

I agree, and I'm using a Windows NAA, but which of those two M.2 SSDs would you choose?

 

PM961 seems to be based on TLC NAND. SM961 would be based on MLC NAND and faster. Either way those are newer than the 950 PRO.

 

There is now also new 960 PRO (MLC NAND) which is even faster.

[xiddox]

Hi folks, I'm on the cusp of ordering parts for a high powered silent PC for running hqplayer (2 channel only, upsample to DSD512, possible convolve), roon, tidal and Acourate, and I'm looking for feedback on my plans.

 

I just ordered a Streacom FC10 Alpha fanless case.

 

I'm planning to order:

 

Samsung Pro SSD probably SATA (for easy external power), but possibly M.2 for speed (like Miska?)

CPU: Intel i7 6700K

Motherboard: ASUS Z170M-Plus

RAM: 16GB DDR4 (2 x 8 GB to allow for possible expansion to 32 GB later if required), probably 2400, but not sure if i should stick with 2133 or go for an even higher speed. Thoughts? Any brand recommendations? (eg Hyperx Fury like Miska)

 

As for power, I'm thinking of an external Teradak 600W linear supply rather than an internal Seasonic 500W. Does anyone here have (good or bad) experience with it? Any compatibility issues?

At a later date, I will also probably add separate internal linear supplies for at least the SSD (see above), RAM, and motherboard clock (see below).

 

I will initially use this with a microrendu, but I also have a low power PC for use as a NAA, and I may also use the high power PC directly at some stage. I have a pink faun I2S card, but may also buy a high quality USB card (eg. JCAT).

 

At some stage, I will probably replace the motherboard clock with something like a PPA clock.

 

I will be running Windows mainly (server 2012 R2), but may also run Linux on occasions.

 

Any comments, suggestions or warnings would be appreciated!

[craighartley]

Could anyone please help by pointing out pros and cons of having HQPLayer desktop and Roonserver on same or separate PCs when playing to a separate NAA?

[lmitche]

Could anyone please help by pointing out pros and cons of having HQPLayer desktop and Roonserver on same or separate PCs when playing to a separate NAA?

Craig,

 

Many of us run Roon/HQplayer on the same PC without an NAA. Be careful with a Linux NAA to always run with DOP as native DSD from Linux is dangerous to your speakers health. ASIO drivers on Windows seem to reduce the risk.

[Miska]

Many of us run Roon/HQplayer on the same PC without an NAA. Be careful with a Linux NAA to always run with DOP as native DSD from Linux is dangerous to your speakers health. ASIO drivers on Windows seem to reduce the risk.

 

Which DAC are you talking about? I have pretty much opposite experience. There are good technical reasons too; because doing mute properly at DAC side with DoP is much harder. With native DSD on Windows/Linux, the DAC knows already upfront before playback is started whether there will be DSD or PCM. With DoP it only knows once the data has been already coming for short while.

 

If some DAC behaves badly with native DSD (or PCM-DSD transitions in general), then there is simply some design flaw in the DAC.

 

iFi iDSD Micro used to have some snap and pop with the early firmware versions, but it has gotten much better with recent versions. The only tricky one never fixed is Mytek Stereo192-DSD DAC which is due to lack of output mute relays and the stupid way ESS Sabre deals with DSD (no explicit way to switch between PCM/DSD).

 

If DSD is done correctly, DAC mutes output for first and last 50 milliseconds of DSD output. (this is because single DSD sample doesn't contain any state, unlike PCM samples)

[Jud]

Which DAC are you talking about? I have pretty much opposite experience. There are good technical reasons too; because doing mute properly at DAC side with DoP is much harder. With native DSD on Windows/Linux, the DAC knows already upfront before playback is started whether there will be DSD or PCM. With DoP it only knows once the data has been already coming for short while.

 

If some DAC behaves badly with native DSD (or PCM-DSD transitions in general), then there is simply some design flaw in the DAC.

 

iFi iDSD Micro used to have some snap and pop with the early firmware versions, but it has gotten much better with recent versions. The only tricky one never fixed is Mytek Stereo192-DSD DAC which is due to lack of output mute relays and the stupid way ESS Sabre deals with DSD (no explicit way to switch between PCM/DSD).

 

If DSD is done correctly, DAC mutes output for first and last 50 milliseconds of DSD output. (this is because single DSD sample doesn't contain any state, unlike PCM samples)

 

Hi Miska - I'm running HQP on Linux through a CuboxTV as NAA, native DSD256. The DAC is an iFi micro-iDSD with the latest firmware.

 

I haven't paid the closest attention to when this happens because my pre-amp is usually turned low enough that it isn't terribly loud, but there are definitely times when there is noise at the start of playback.

 

I believe this happens most often when I click a track in the middle of an album to start it playing. I'll try to determine when it occurs more precisely.

[lmitche]

Which DAC are you talking about? I have pretty much opposite experience. There are good technical reasons too; because doing mute properly at DAC side with DoP is much harder. With native DSD on Windows/Linux, the DAC knows already upfront before playback is started whether there will be DSD or PCM. With DoP it only knows once the data has been already coming for short while.

 

If some DAC behaves badly with native DSD (or PCM-DSD transitions in general), then there is simply some design flaw in the DAC.

 

iFi iDSD Micro used to have some snap and pop with the early firmware versions, but it has gotten much better with recent versions. The only tricky one never fixed is Mytek Stereo192-DSD DAC which is due to lack of output mute relays and the stupid way ESS Sabre deals with DSD (no explicit way to switch between PCM/DSD).

 

If DSD is done correctly, DAC mutes output for first and last 50 milliseconds of DSD output. (this is because single DSD sample doesn't contain any state, unlike PCM samples)

Hi Miska,

 

I have had these incidents with both the IFI microIDSD and the T+A DAC 8 DSD in the past two weeks.

[sydlow]

...

I just ordered a Streacom FC10 Alpha fanless case.

...

As for power, I'm thinking of an external Teradak 600W linear supply...

 

I have a Fanless Streacom case too. The FC9. Other components are:

Intel Core i7-6700

Gigabyte GA-Z170MX-Gaming 5

and

I use the Uptone LPS. Powers the motherboard with the Pico PSU and the SSD separately via the two power outs.

 

[Miska]

I have had these incidents with both the IFI microIDSD and the T+A DAC 8 DSD in the past two weeks.

 

Do you have the latest firmware on iFi? I use it all the time on Linux with the native DSD driver support and I have not noticed any problems recently, apart from the occasional need to reboot the firmware by re-plugging USB (it is running 24/7). (but I need to switch the HP amp to some other input when powering up or down the DAC side from the volume knob, because that makes fairly loud pops)

 

On the T+A I have not noticed anything either, used on Windows with the ASIO driver @DSD512. Output is set to fixed volume (volume control bypassed), and the balanced XLR outputs are in use.

[craighartley]

.

On the T+A I have not noticed anything either, used on Windows with the ASIO driver @DSD512. Output is set to fixed volume (volume control bypassed), and the balanced XLR outputs are in use.

 

Same here.

[LewinskiH01]

Hello.

 

I have a headless WS2012R2 machine running in core mode with JRiver and I'd like to incorporate Roon, which JRiver doesn't support. I'm considering going with HQP and optimizing around it.

 

I don't do DSD, but I do use Acourate to generate digital crossovers and room correction to get 4-way stereo. So 8 channels. Right now at 24/192 the CPU runs at about 15% load.

 

This is my current machine: Intel S1200KPR, Xeon E3 1265lv2, Crucial V4 SSD for OS, PPA USB card v2, PPA wide range picoPSU, PPA SATA cable for SSD, Streacom FC8 Evo case, lab linear PSU for picoPSU, Windows Server 2012 R2, AudioPhil's Optimizer.

 

I'm wondering if this machine would be powerful enough to do the HQP number crunching. Maybe Room + HQP?

 

1) Should I use this one machine for everything, connected to the DAC thru USB?

2) Use it for processing and use a NAA connected to the DAC? A microRendu, for example?

3) Or build a workhorse machine as front end and use my existing machine as NAA?

 

What is the best configuration for best possible sound?

[craighartley]

Can anyone advise if there are particular settings in NVidia control panel or in bios that should be used for CUDA with HQPLayer and Asus Strix 1080? The PC is headless and therefore has nothing connected externally to the graphics card.

[lmitche]

Do you have the latest firmware on iFi? I use it all the time on Linux with the native DSD driver support and I have not noticed any problems recently, apart from the occasional need to reboot the firmware by re-plugging USB (it is running 24/7). (but I need to switch the HP amp to some other input when powering up or down the DAC side from the volume knob, because that makes fairly loud pops)

 

On the T+A I have not noticed anything either, used on Windows with the ASIO driver @DSD512. Output is set to fixed volume (volume control bypassed), and the balanced XLR outputs are in use.

Yes, I can confirm that the latest firmware is running on my microIDSD. It seems the firmware version is called Limoncello.

 

And yes, rebooting the PC with a Dac connected and amp powered up creates a large thump on both the IFI and T&A DACs when the usb port resets on a power up event. This can be quite startling and damage to my speakers has occurred in this circumstance. Muting the T+A DAC prevents the thump from hitting the amp. Obviously this has nothing to do with HQplayer as it is not running at the time these events occur.

 

From each of these two DACs there are often pops between tracks when music is played from Windows/Roon/HQplayer at native DSD512. This is regardless of the resolution, same or different, of the next track relative to the prior track. Roughly, the inter track pop happens about 20% of the time here. Happily this pop is mostly short in duration and not damaging. It can emanate randomly from one or both speakers.

 

Nevertheless I have had this inter track pop damage my speakers when playing DSD512 native on the IFI microIDSD using Linux with and without a Linux NAA. Twice this has resulted in speaker damage. An Archlinux distribution was in use during at least one of these events. I know other very qualified people here who have had the same problems. We all avoid Linux use in combination with native DSD due to these experiences.

 

Also, on Windows, when music play stops, and for a few seconds after, HQplayer locks the drop down menus on the main panel. During this period, if a menu choice is made, or if the player is exited by "x-ing" out of the windows, a loud thump can be heard.

 

Feel free to PM me if you need any more detail.

 

Happily, this weekend, I found what seems to be a very well qualified speaker repair shop that will replace the foam on my speaker woofers in a very short timeframe and at a reasonable cost. I look forward to having permanent repairs done to my speakers.

[Miska]

And yes, rebooting the PC with a Dac connected and amp powered up creates a large thump on both the IFI and T&A DACs when the usb port resets on a power up event. This can be quite startling and damage to my speakers has occurred in this circumstance. Muting the T+A DAC prevents the thump from hitting the amp.

 

I think for me it has been completely silent... At least I don't remember ever hearing any extra noises from the T+A.

 

Nevertheless I have had this inter track pop damage my speakers when playing DSD512 native on the IFI microIDSD using Linux with and without a Linux NAA. Twice this has resulted in speaker damage. An Archlinux distribution was in use during at least one of these events. I know other very qualified people here who have had the same problems. We all avoid Linux use in combination with native DSD due to these experiences.

 

I don't know if it is somehow related to ArchLinux because I don't use it myself (not a supported platform). But I wonder how loud people are listening if such can happen. It shouldn't be possible for the pop to be louder than music, because maximum output voltage should be fairly close in both cases. Just for the record, my iDSD Micro is set to fixed output level (the switch below the DAC near rear panel is set to "Direct"). I know it makes noises when powered up, so I always power up the headphone amp after iDSD Micro is already on, and I power down the headphone amp before turning off the iDSD Micro.

 

If anybody is using software volume control, it is really advisable to use it in the recommended way. IOW, when HQPlayer is set to output at 0 dBFS level, it shouldn't be any louder than loudest reasonable listening level. This is to avoid nasty surprises if the OS or DAC decides to do something funny.

 

Also, on Windows, when music play stops, and for a few seconds after, HQplayer locks the drop down menus on the main panel. During this period, if a menu choice is made, or if the player is exited by "x-ing" out of the windows, a loud thump can be heard.

 

I'm not sure I understand what you mean and on which DAC (driver)?

[lmitche]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean and on which DAC (driver)?

 

These thumping events happens with either the T&A or IFI DACs. But you are right, I should have been more clear. The case is when Roon playback stops. There is then a second or two of silence, if a HQplayer menu is touched or HQplayer closed during this period a thump occurs. Once the drop downs are released, all is good.

[Miska]

These thumping events happens with either the T&A or IFI DACs. But you are right, I should have been more clear. The case is when Roon playback stops. There is then a second or two of silence, if a HQplayer menu is touched or HQplayer closed during this period a thump occurs. Once the drop downs are released, all is good.

 

OK, that will likely cause very short start-stop playback cycle. If you touch HQPlayer GUI while Roon is controlling, Roon will back off it's control, if HQPlayer was already initializing for next playback (on source format change), and it will realize that the source has disappeared right after starting the playback.

 

It is good idea to stop playback from Roon and wait until HQPlayer enters stopped state (play-button is not anymore pressed) before touching HQPlayer GUI. Roon has delay of about 10 seconds when you stop, it first pauses the playback and then after about 10 seconds it stops.

[LewinskiH01]

Hello.

 

I have a headless WS2012R2 machine running in core mode with JRiver and I'd like to incorporate Roon, which JRiver doesn't support. I'm considering going with HQP and optimizing around it.

 

I don't do DSD, but I do use Acourate to generate digital crossovers and room correction to get 4-way stereo. So 8 channels. Right now at 24/192 the CPU runs at about 15% load.

 

This is my current machine: Intel S1200KPR, Xeon E3 1265lv2, Crucial V4 SSD for OS, PPA USB card v2, PPA wide range picoPSU, PPA SATA cable for SSD, Streacom FC8 Evo case, lab linear PSU for picoPSU, Windows Server 2012 R2, AudioPhil's Optimizer.

 

I'm wondering if this machine would be powerful enough to do the HQP number crunching. Maybe Room + HQP?

 

1) Should I use this one machine for everything, connected to the DAC thru USB?

2) Use it for processing and use a NAA connected to the DAC? A microRendu, for example?

3) Or build a workhorse machine as front end and use my existing machine as NAA?

 

What is the best configuration for best possible sound?

 

Anybody able to provide any feedback?

[Miska]

Anybody able to provide any feedback?

 

Probably it is fine, 192k PCM is pretty light weight. But you can just try, there's a free 30 day trial...

 

I would start with (1) and you can always go for option (2) later if you like (depending on your DAC). I don't think (3) is good option.

[craighartley]

After seeking advice on this and other threads on what might assure me of upsampling any rate DSD or PCM, with any filter, to DSD 512 24576000 bit rate (stereo) I've bought a PC with a 6700k processor. It will do full poly-sinc with Auto rate family checked, but it won't do multiples of 44.1 to 24576000 without very bad stuttering.

 

What is more, I added some safety margin by including an Asus Strix 1080 for CUDA offload. This was intended to give me a bit of future proofing. But it barely improves the stutter. The stutter remains the same whether the music is stored on NAS, a directly attached USB 3 SSD drive, or onboard M2.SSD.

 

I am playing to a Windows NAA. My next step, after a bit of rejiggling, is to attach the 6700k PC direct to my T&A 8 DSD DAC.

 

Meanwhile can anyone please confirm again that I should be able to do this with just the 6700k and no CUDA offload?

 

And a question for Miska please: looking at the activity of the ASUS 1080, it is helping quite a bit during the building of the poly-sinc-2S filter, but when I press play using the full poly-sinc filter, activity drops to zero until the music starts playing (stuttering). Is that correct behaviour? Anything I might be doing wrong?

 

( Gigabyte Gaming 5; 256 Samsung 950 pro M2.SSD; 32gb of DDR4 3200 RAM; Windows 10 pro)

[lmitche]

Yes, connect the Dac directly to the PC. The NAA or network is probably the source of stuttering. If this is a dedicated audio PC running AO along with it's windows stripping feature may be of help as well.

 

I have an Asus I7-6700k and T&A Dac here and can up-sample everything to dsd512 without any stuttering at all. The PC and DAC are directly connected. There is no NAA or CUDA card in use.

[craighartley]

Yes, connect the Dac directly to the PC. The NAA or network is probably the source of stuttering. If this is a dedicated audio PC running AO along with it's windows stripping feature may be of help as well.

 

I have an Asus I7-6700k and T&A Dac here and can up-sample everything to dsd512 without any stuttering at all. The PC and DAC are directly connected. There is no NAA or CUDA card in use.

 

Thanks very much. I'll try that tomorrow. It's a dedicated audio server rather than anything I can have permanently in the listening room attached to the DAC. So if it is a network problem I'll have to sort that out.

 

What I don't understand is why there there could be a network difference in streaming 88.2 via poly-sinc2s at 24m6, which works fine and with no stuttering (though only with CUDA offload), and the same file at 24m6 via full poly-sinc, which stutters. Surely the load is at the filtering stage, and a 24m6 stream should not change behaviour at the network stage? Or am I being naive?

 

Anyway I'll rule the network in or out tomorrow.

[lmitche]

Best to get everything working in the simplest way possible, then add the NAA. To me adding a second PC is like squaring the problem, so I avoid it.

[Quadman]

@craighartley when you use HQP do you have Auto Rate Family checked? This way when you upsample to DSD512 HQP will upsample 44K material to 22M6 and 48K material to 24M6 on the T+A Dac 8 DSD. This will help lessen the CPU load as you are doing even multiples of the base frequency and the result is still DSD512. You should have no issues with that. Also I highly recommend going direct from PC to T+A and if you can use balanced IC to go from T+A to your preamp or amps. Stunning difference.