Optical Network Configurations

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I started off with the galvanic isolation method of utilizing dual FMCs right before the streamer/bridge.  Then I did the same for media streamers (Nvidia ShieldTV and Roku Ultra).  So surprised by the improvements, I just couldn't stop.  Eventually changing over my entire LAN from copper to fiber.  Currently, my setup looks like this:

I have 1G fiber into my home which utilizes their own proprietary fiber converter.  I use a very short ethernet cable out of it and into my ASUS RT-AX89X router's WAN input.  At this stage, the only points in my network that employ copper again are just before each video streamer, my PS Audio Bridge II and a short run out of my Intel NUC.  I run fiber (OM4) out of the router using the 10G SFP+ cage and into my first Mikrotik CRS309 switch.  This way my local playback doesn't have to go through the router at all.  My NAS, another Mikrotik CRS309 and Intel NUC are the connected devices to this first switch (via OM4 fiber).  The exception being my NUC, which uses a pair of Finisar FTFL1318P3BTL transceivers and OS2 fiber into a Sonore optical Module (OG model).  I have a 50' run of OM4 to my 2nd CRS309 switch which is in the front of my media room behind all of my components.  Off of this switch is a short run of OS2 fiber into an EtherRegen (also using the same Finisar transceivers as above) then into my PS Audio DS DAC via a WW Starlight 8 ethernet cable.  Various video streamers are fed from this switch and they all utilize linear PSUs for their FMCs.  Every switch, the router, the Sonore oM, ER and my NUC run on linear PSUs.  My server houses my HDDs for movies and SSDs for music, so I didn't bother with an HDPlex/ATX linear setup for it but it does utilize an Intel X520 NIC (SFP+ NIC).  This way it never has to convert copper to fiber externally.  I may try an HDPlex in it someday just to hear the difference.  I am currently in the process of switching out all SFP/SFP+ from generic (mostly 10Gtek) to Finisar modules.  I don't know what it is about those Finisars but they improve every device I put them onto. 

This whole 'project' turned into a full-time hobby but I've been thoroughly enjoying it and learning so much.  I enjoy reading about new things to try and then how to implement them.

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3 hours ago, audiophilac said:

Hi,

Is your CRS309 still connected to etherRegen?

I sold the ER after I purchased a Lumin U2. With it's optical input, the ER became obsolete. 

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3 hours ago, Superdad said:

I guess more redundant for you than “obsolete.” 

You have an optical network feed from you Microtik.  
Yet there are a good many Lumin X1 and U2 owners feeding optical from their EtherREGEN. We went to a lot of trouble and expense to make the EtherREGEN’s performance—data/clocking/power, but not port compliment—symmetrical on both sides of its active differential isolation moat, so that it could be used in the B>A direction with fine results.  We did so specifically for optical endpoint users (which at the time was only the Sonore opticalRendu, Lumin models subsequently arrived on the market).

 

Separately, @audiophilac just sent me a PM regarding some troubles feeding his EtherREGEN from a Microtik 10G switch.  To him I advise two things:

a) Use SFP transceivers and not SFP+ to assure that the Microtik stays at 1G;

b) Read/search this thread for reports from other Microtik users as I recall someone here saying that the Microtik settings to force a port into 1G do not actually work. There seems to be some confusion/contention around this.

Yes obsolete. My entire LAN is fiber optic, so it would be foolish to convert from light to copper and then back to light just to utilize an ER.

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3 hours ago, R1200CL said:

The ER should also be looked as a DDC. If the ER2 will have fiber both sides, it may be worth trying the ER2. Especially with an 50 ohm external 10mHz sine wave clock.

I’m using an opticalRendu, and I do the “foolish” conversion with a 10 GB Mikrotik upfront 😀

 

I agree 100% on the fiber both sides and I would definitely give it a listen. But that remains to be seen. 

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15 minutes ago, audiophilac said:

Would there be another Layer 2 SFP+ switch, fanless that could work with eR?

I'm currently using Aruba POE switch with four SFP+ ports.

I'm not positive I'm answering your exact question, but I run a 1G SFP switch into my U2. I inserted a Finisar 1471 (SFP+ w/DFB laser) in the switch and a Finisar 1317 in my U2. SFP+ transceivers are incompatible with Lumin was my reasoning and this arrangement sounded best to me. All switches are on their own LPS unit. 

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2 hours ago, SQFIRST said:

In a 10G board, such as the CRS308, the SFP+ module specifications hold. From the Datasheet:

https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/610/finisar_ftlx1475d3btl_rohs-6_compliant_10g_10km_13-1272466.pdf

As mentioned in datasheet bullet #2 this only supports 10G

I have seen the term dual rate used interchangeably to indicate running an SFP+ at 1G on a 1G network device vs the actual dual rate specification from the manufacture. Seemingly both are dual rate, except one is restrictive and official (when using 10G board).

example: Ftlx1475d3BCV

https://datasheet.octopart.com/FTLX1475D3BCV-Finisar-datasheet-137383310.pdf

 

If you have a 1G device with optical port you should be able to use the modules you have and connect with the ER. It is frustrating when things do not work.

 

I am using 10 or 12 of the 1471BCV modules in my network.  Most are connected to two of my CRS309s.  They work fine (in all of my 1G AV gear/video streamers/OLED/etc).  I use cheap, 1G media converters on the gear side of each component.  It took a lot of trial and error to figure out what and where things just worked.  Single rate (BCL) modules wouldn't work in the same scenario where BCV modules would.  A very steep learning curve indeed.

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3 hours ago, R1200CL said:

Is that the correct number?

https://www.digikey.de/htmldatasheets/production/3368495/0/0/1/product-guide.html

Well other than my abbreviated version, yes. Here are a few of my extras....

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Although I wouldn't need the LHY switch for my audio, it might be interesting to use as a FMC for my video streamers and OLED TV. It would save me several boxes (LPS and FMCs).

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6 hours ago, Mike Rubin said:

.All of the product listings I find for that model number say the modules are SFP+, not SFP.  My understanding has been that you can use an SFP module in an SFP+ cage, but not vice versa.  

 

Am I misunderstanding the spec of the Cisco modules or is my compatability understanding what's off here? 

Your understanding of compatibility is off, as you said. You can definitely use an SFP+ transceiver is a 1G (SFP) router/switch. Is it guaranteed to work? No. But even SFP transceivers arent guaranteed to work in every device that supports 1G speeds.. 

Many of us have gone through a lot of trial and error to figure out, not only what works, but what sounds best in our setup. 

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On 1/19/2024 at 7:02 AM, Axiom05 said:

I have a question for you optical experts. I just replaced my two TP-Link SFP modules with a pair of Finisar FTLF8519P3BTL, one in a Trendnet switch and one in an Opticalmodule. What is it about the Finisar that makes them better? The Finisar cost 2 to 3 times that of the TP-Link, what am I getting for the extra cost?  Also, how do the SFP's labeled as "Finisar Compatible" compare to the Finisar units themselves? Thanks, just trying to learn something, no ulterior motive.

Don't buy the Finisar Transceivers new. Buy them from a reputable IT firm who consistently pulls them from large organizations when they upgrade to 25G or whatever. 

 

Finisar transceivers are Ultra reliable, high quality and the biggest reason they're more expensive (IMO) is the LED/laser driving them. Most of us use single mode due to their DFB lasers.  I have no technical reasoning as to why these sound the best to me, but I too was skeptical before listening for myself. I posted a review earlier in this thread somewhere. 

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3 minutes ago, Iving said:

 

So translation 10G > 1Gb outside the PC - and before the eR - no matter what we call that process or the device involved - is complex - and a matter of trial and error? That's not my idea of a clear path! It's a pity - because I'd probably give it a whirl otherwise.

In my experience, 10Gbe > 1Gbe period. The issue boils down to compatibility and that's where the trial and error come into play. If that sounds like too much work, it's probably not for you. Nothing wrong with your stance. It's a hobby for many of us. 

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4 hours ago, Iving said:

 

Where would you start if you were me?

If you mean where should you start by cleaning up your lag spikes, I have no idea.  I am not an IT professional, just a hobbyist. 

I was merely commenting on your 10G vs 1G in terms of sound quality.  I have never noted any sort of difference in terms of reliability or link speed, etc., between the two types of interfaces.

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2 hours ago, Iving said:

 

The spiking problem is now located to the Network Card which means that the problem is solved.

 

But the solution involves finding a good card to replace the miscreant ... SFP. 1Gb. Probably Intel i210/i350. They're a bit out of date! I already got a great latency report using a cheapo. Maybe the SQ can be enhanced with known good components.

 

Or - pursue the 10G idea affirmed in different ways here. This wouldn't be straightforward - apparently. I should expect trial and error getting from 10G to 1Gb successfully. Yes I'm a little reluctant to invite new unknowns because I've been distracted for weeks by the spike issue.

 

I thought if you were courageous enough to say to me, "If that sounds like too much work, it's probably not for you", then you might also be generous enough to help me with a starting point. For 10G - surely - all I need is a 10G PC AIC and a device between it and my eR. Any ideas at all? Where I could start?

I have and use two Intel X520 cards in my network. These are excellent NICs even if theyre a bit dated. The only thing they're picky about is what transceivers they accept. But there is a way around that somewhere on the web. It's strange because on my server box (TrueNAS), I am using 10G Finisars. My Win11 machine would only accept Intel transceivers. But they're made for them by Finisar, so not a big deal. 

 

Edit: found the thread on h9w to unlock an Intel X520...

 

https://forums.servethehome.com/index.php?threads/patching-intel-x520-eeprom-to-unlock-all-sfp-transceivers.24634/

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@Iving yes. A competent switch allows for 10G devices to communicate with 1G devices. 

 

Be careful with the CRS310. If noise is any kind of concern, don't buy that switch. The fan is crazy loud. Buy a 305 or 309 instead. Neither of those two switches have fans. They'll also negotiate from/to 10G/1G. I have a 305 and a pair of 309s in my network. All devices in my LAN connect at 1G except my Win11, TrueNAS box and ASUS router, which are 10G/SFP+.

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6 minutes ago, audiobomber said:

Thanks for clarifying, because it seems that some people have taken the "10G has lower jitter" statement as proof that 10G is better than 1G for audio. Actually, I run my audio systems at 100Mbps where possible, as suggested by some audiophile companies. 

I think you might be over-simplifying your 10G comment and proof just a bit.  Three years ago when I switched my network to fiber, very little was known vs today...  Many of us didn't take anything as fact in our experimentation.  We spent loads of time, effort and expense in finding what worked best for us and in our setups.  Heck, I have no way or even the desire to measure to see if 10G has lower jitter than 1G.  My proof that 10G is better in my setup (audio and video in my case) lies in my experimentation.  Seeing/hearing is believing.

As this entire thread provides real-world feedback while performing heaps of trial and error, everything should be taken with a grain of salt.  It's up to any/everyone to experiment for themselves, in their setup to hear what sounds best for them...  Sure, we all read posts and even try product A or B which comes recommended.  But in the end, we have to determine what is/was better for us.  I've had an eR and sold it.  It's beloved on so many forums but it ended up not being 'all that' in my setup.  Not only in terms of sound quality but in terms of system/network hiccups.  Roon did not care for the eR and would skip songs long before the end.  Since removing, I have never, ever had Roon FF to the next track until the current track ended. 

I currently have and utilize a Sonore oM.  And as obvious as some transceivers make in audibility, or SM vs MM fiber types, linear vs SMPSUs, I could not tell you if the oM sounds any better than any of my 10Gtek FMCs (I have other 'cheapies' too) with the same linear power supply being used.  One day, I will try to do a thorough A/B between the two but I have no desire to do so right now.  I already own the Sonore, so it's easier to just keep it in the chain because it works.

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2 minutes ago, muski said:

These are the other ones I've tried...

TP-Link TL-SM311LM

Finisar FTLF1321P1BTL

Finisar FTLX8574D3BCV

 

@audiobomberif you want to know of other transceivers, I may have listed some ealier in this thread. I have over 100 SFP/SFP+ transceivers. I have used the three above and countless ones from GiTi, 10Gtek, Wiimark (I believe that's the name), Intel, Finisar among others. 

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4 minutes ago, jabbr said:

Hey @Jud I see you have a fiberoptic USB cable, what do you think?

I don't have a fiberoptic USB but I do own a pair of Wireworld Stellar Optical HDMI cables.  I use them on my Zidoo UHD3000.  One into my OLED and the other into my Lyngdorf SSP.  The Zidoo is a Roon Endpoint for 5.1 SACD and DVD-A files.  So I do get to listen to hi-rez music through it.  They're certainly not true optical cables but a hybrid of copper+optical but I am very pleased with them.  Never once experienced intermittent blackouts or audio drop outs that every other cable has had at some point.  

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I decided to try one of the LHY SW-6 switches in my setup.  My intent was to remove 4-5 FMCs on linear power supplies and use the LHY as a multi-device FMC.  That alone would make me happy due to space issues.  I run a fiber optic LAN already, so input into the SFP cage was natural and then I have (5) 1G ethernet ports for my devices (OLED, ShieldTV, Zidoo UHD3000, Roku, etc). I use the Zidoo for my 5.1 rips from my NAS as well as movies and concert videos.  Most, but not all, of my listening was done through the Zidoo and my ShieldTV which is on a Sonore LPS unit with a custom cable/adapter made by myself.

What I didn't expect from this switch was much difference in terms of a SQ improvement.  High hopes but low expectations, right?  I've done many things - and returned/sold far more things, in my setup but this LHY switch has been one of the best devices/tweaks that I've stumbled across.  This includes an ER and a Sonore OM, although I never hooked up an A/V device to them due to their bandwidth/speed limitations.  I won't go much into a review since it is on topic to a degree (FO switch) but kind of off topic too.  I will just say it's like I added several speakers off to the sides, behind me, above me, etc.  And the vocals through my center are even more natural sounding than before, which I already thought was pretty damn good.  I just don't understand how this switch made such a big impact on in my room/setup.  Very satisfied.

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1 hour ago, TRHH said:

These are the new switches I am currently looking at:

• HPE - Aruba Instant On 1930 8G Switch (JL680A#ABB)
• QNAP - QSW-2104-2S
• ZyXEL - XGS1010-12

It would be great if anybody knows if they work with FTLF1318P3BTL.

 

Thanks 

 

Torben

i do not have firat-hand experience with those mentioned but I will add that my 1318s have worked with every switch I have tried them in. Several from Mikrotik, QNAP, EtherRegen, Sonore Optical Module and a few  inexpensive, generic switches off of Amazon.  

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2 minutes ago, TRHH said:

THX all :-)

 

As I don't want to replace my FTLF1318P3BTL let me rephrase the question:

 

• What 8-10-12 port switch will work with FTLF1318P3BTL?

 

Thanks

 

Torben

Mikrotik CRR309 and CRS310 worked for me. I also have a cheapie from Binardat that works fine (currently in use w/ a 1318 transceiver). I don't see it for sale any longer though but there were several clones on Amazon at the time I purchased it. Just differing name badges.

I just noticed that the above Mikrotiks are claiming 1G switches now and not 10G? That's a strange move if true. 

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10 hours ago, dbastin said:

Hi, Just chipping in some ideas to consider.

 

Apparently SFP modules generate noise, so you might get a better result with wired connection from ER Side B to the X1.  Side B is the better, and some ethernet cables may perform better than fibre.  Try a gpod quality Cat 6a UTP with Shakti on lines on each end.

Alex Crespi (UpTone Audio) assured me that both sides (A and B) of the moat are identical in data, clocking and power performance.

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@hltf I own a pair of those FMCs but to be honest, I do not recall for certain if they work with Finisar 1318s.  Those were a bit more temperamental than 10Gtek FMCs.  I own many 10Gteks and they are quite versatile.  Here is a link:

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XZ7HXMR/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_image?ie=UTF8&th=1

 

But I have moved away from generic/less expensive FMCs completely, to ones made by LHY.  They're certainly not cheap but the price to improvement in SQ is well worth it to me.  I use their SW-6 switch as a 5:1 media converter and I also have their FMC between my NUC (running Roon ROCK) and fiber switch in my PC/server 'area'.  I just ordered a larger SW-10 switch to get all of my AV devices/endpoints onto one switch.  Still amazes me what a difference these switches/FMCs made - especially for movie soundtracks utilizing 5.1.4 Atmos.

 

 

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Yeah the ClearCurve will work great. I've no clue about an AOC because I've never experimented with them. 

 

Edit: since you appear to have fallen down the rabbit hole, I actually prefer these cables in my system. I have ClearCurve as well but pulled it out for these. 

 

SpeedyFiberTX – 1-Pack 1 Meter LC to LC Fiber Patch Cable, Corning SMF-28 Singlemode 9/125um Ultra Optical Fiber, Duplex, Yellow Riser OFNR Cable Jacket https://a.co/d/h5jeLzt

 

My entire LAN is now comprised of those Corning cables. 

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45 minutes ago, hltf said:

Thanks again @audiom3.  I might try the SpeedyFiber at some point.  I assume it is much better than the ClearCurve.

Well, it started with one of my ClearCurve cables literally coming apart. I may have been unlucky with the construction on one of them. But in trying several different cables, I preferred the Corning SMF-28. In my system it seemed to bring about the most balanced sound. Maybe it's less sensitive to bending than the ClearCurve? I'm not exactly sure and when I called Corning, the CS rep didn't seem to know either 😄 

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@audiobomber I never tried the SMPS on any FMC, so I'm sure that you are right. I've always had a 5v LPS unit and even used a few Jameco Reliapro units. Never in my audio path but on video streamers' FMCs. But they seemed to work well.