Optical Network Configurations

[89reksal]

11 minutes ago, Jud said:

You realize neither the article you cited about vendor lock-in nor the very first post under the John Swenson search support what you are saying?

I assume you're referring to R1200CL's response to this post "Again the SFP module has to both be supported by the switch and support the selected speed. It’s data sheet states which speeds it supports." by jabbr?

 

This is what comes up as "the very first post under the John Swenson search":

 

"Just some more info on SFP+ ports and modules. As far as I know ALL switches with SFP+ ports will automatically run the port at 1Gb when an SFP module is plugged it. There are a few switches (they HAVE to be managed switches) let you program the port to a fixed 1Gb , so it will run at 1Gb even with an SFP+ module plugged in. The opposite does not make sense since an SFP module will not run at 10Gb. BUT an SFP+ module WILL run at 1Gb! So you CAN actually put an SFP+ module into an ER! So IF you have one of those switches that lets you program the speed of a port you could actually use SFP+ modules at both ends.

 

 Note that for all of these switches that let you program the port speed, the default behavior is to look at the module type to determine the speed. If you want to use an SFP+ module with an SFP+ port with an ER you HAVE to have a switch that supports manual speed selection and you HAVE to go in an program it. You have to be comfortable with programming your switch."

 

I'd say that couldn't be clearer in supporting what R1200CL is saying. What it doesn't support is what jabbr is saying.

[dbastin]

23 minutes ago, lasker98 said:

If someone is able to tell me how to get them working in my switch at 1G it would be much appreciated.

 

I am liasing with my local Mikrotik support agent to hopefully shed light on this issue regarding running 10G SFP+'s at 1G speed.

 

He suggested ... untick the 10G 'advertisement' ..  perhaps you know what this means in case you haven't tried it (I havent).

[Jud]

5 minutes ago, lasker98 said:

There are a few switches (they HAVE to be managed switches) let you program the port to a fixed 1Gb , so it will run at 1Gb even with an SFP+ module plugged in.

 

"Program" doesn't imply to me set and forget in a GUI. I picture something more like the command line use I saw in my reading where some experienced people discussed how to get SFP+ modules in 10G ports in Mikrotik switches running at 2.5G.

 

I'm not experienced, and I don't expect GUIs to do everything a command line can in the hands of someone who does have experience. So I like to be very careful about assuming anything will work before I've specifically read about it working from a number of people, or if that's not available, tested it myself where recovery from failure is easy.

 

For the ER specifically, I will try a 10Gtek SFP+ module, since your experience indicates that works, and feed it with the same SFP module that currently works in the Mikrotik. When I get a Fitlet3 in here, I might try an SFP+ module and substitute a QNAP switch, depending on whether I can get some assurance the SFP+ module will work in the Fitlet3 (I already know it does in the QNAP).

[Bertel]

1 hour ago, lasker98 said:

If someone is able to tell me how to get them working in my switch at 1G it would be much appreciated.

 

@lasker98 what usually works for me is to untick the 'Auto Negotiation' box on the 'Link' tab in SwOS, reboot the CRS305, when it comes back up there usually is 'no link' displayed, then tick it again, and either the link comes on then, or another reboot will bring it up. Not exactly intuitive, but I guess the FTLX1475D3BCV dual rate module needs to somehow get initialised or set correctly by the switch first. (That process worked for me last Friday when I replaced a FTLF1321P1BTL 1G module with a new FTLX1475D3BCV dual rate module)

 

@dbastin I assume that's what MikroTik support mean when stating to 'untick the 10G 'advertisement'

[89reksal]

21 minutes ago, dbastin said:

He suggested ... untick the 10G 'advertisement' ..  perhaps you know what this means in case you haven't tried it (I havent).

It's accessed through RouterOS. Use "WebFig" (selected at top right of RouterOS UI (you'll see "Quick Set" "WebFig" "Terminal" options). Then from the left side menu selections, choose "Interfaces", then you'll see your ports. Under "Name" tab, click on the port you want. That will open a new page showing link options for that port. Scroll down and you will see "Advertise" with all the different options. On mine, "10G full" is already unchecked for all ports.

 

Be aware that as far as I know, settings made in RouterOS are only in effect while in RouterOS. They have no effect once back in SwOS. If I'm wrong on this anyone please feel free to correct me.

[Jud]

2 minutes ago, Bertel said:

 

@lasker98 what usually works for me is to untick the 'Auto Negotiation' box, reboot the CRS305, when it comes back up there usually is 'no lonk' displayed, then tick it again, and either the link comes on then, or another reboot will bring it up. Not exactly intuitive, but I guess the FTLX1475D3BCV dual rate module needs to somehow get initialised or set correctly by the switch first. (That process worked for me last Friday when I replaced a FTLF1321P1BTL 1G module with a new FTLX1475D3BCV dual rate module)

 

@dbastin I assume that's what MikroTik support mean when stating to 'untick the 10G 'advertisement'

 

This is why I think GUIs, for all their convenience (I wouldn't be without them) are so often less precise, more ambiguous, than the command line. With the latter it's either right or wrong, no ambiguity (though there are often several different commands that can do what you want). With a GUI, there is often uncertainty, and I try not to blindly trust it will do what I think it says.

[Jud]

2 minutes ago, lasker98 said:

Be aware that as far as I know, settings made in RouterOS are only in effect while in RouterOS. They have no effect once back in SwOS. If I'm wrong on this anyone please feel free to correct me.

 

I recall a section in the Mikrotik online documentation that talks about setting configuration for SwOS while in RouterOS. I can try to find it again over the next couple of days if you don't get there first.

[89reksal]

27 minutes ago, Jud said:

"Program" doesn't imply to me set and forget in a GUI.

I read it in a much more generic way as John used it. I take it to simply mean it has to be set somehow through the switch management console. Not all switches have a more simple GUI like  SwOS in our Mikrotik switches, that allows you to manage some settings (such as link speed which apparently doesn't function correctly in this use case) without getting into more advanced configuration through command line or RouterOS. My two Mikrotik switches are the only managed switches I have any experience with.

[Jud]

19 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

I recall a section in the Mikrotik online documentation that talks about setting configuration for SwOS while in RouterOS. I can try to find it again over the next couple of days if you don't get there first.

 

https://wiki.mikrotik.com/wiki/Manual:CRS3xx_series_switches#Configuring_SwOS_using_RouterOS

[89reksal]

3 hours ago, Bertel said:

what usually works for me is to untick the 'Auto Negotiation' box on the 'Link' tab in SwOS, reboot the CRS305, when it comes back up there usually is 'no link' displayed, then tick it again, and either the link comes on then, or another reboot will bring it up. Not exactly intuitive, but I guess the FTLX1475D3BCV dual rate module needs to somehow get initialised or set correctly by the switch first.

Thanks Bertel. I tried these steps and had the same results after each step but could never get a working link established. Because of dbastin's post about advertising 10G I went into RouterOS to see what was going on with that since when I posted about mine being deselected, that was with the 1318 SFP modules working. It was still unselected with these 1475 SFP+ modules but no link.

 

I tried lots of random interface settings while in RouterOS, mostly combinations of flow control on/off/auto, full duplex on/off, auto negotiation on/off but again no go. I booted back into SwOS where auto negotiation was deselected and no go. I enabled auto negotiation, applied new settings (without reboot) and immediately had working 1G links. I didn't have to reboot anything downstream (ER, OM Deluxe, sonic transport or streamer/dac), the links just worked. There was definitely no specific repeatable sequence to get it working but somehow, as you said, the modules finally got initialized. So for now I again have 1G links working between dual rate FTLX1475D3BCV SFP+ modules in the Mikrotik CRS305 (using SwOS) and the regular FTLX1475D3BCL SFP+ modules in my ER and OM. Hopefully it lasts longer than two days this time.

 

If these Mikrotik switches are working "correctly" I'd sure hate to see them working incorrectly.

[jabbr]

7 hours ago, lasker98 said:

Two days later I went to play music and nothing. After about an hour of trying everything I had tried to get it working originally, I went back to the 1318 modules and again, these instantly worked.

Honestly I'm confused about what you are trying to do. If the 1318 module is working in the Mikrotik, what is the problem? Why did you get 4 new modules?

[jabbr]

9 hours ago, Jud said:

What it "knows" has got to be limited to what the electronics inside the module can communicate (plus possibly what algorithms in the switch, which may not exist in cheaper switches, can make of that). What sort of information are we talking about?

There is a serial interface which allows the switch to interrogate things like vendor code, and many other properties of the device as well as the link. The switch could ask, for example, if the SFP(+) module supports 1000base-X ie 1g

[jabbr]

8 hours ago, lasker98 said:

I'd say that couldn't be clearer in supporting what R1200CL is saying. What it doesn't support is what jabbr is saying.

Oh ok, why are you having a problem then? You are the one asking for help. The bottom line is for you is getting your network working. The Mikrotik has worked fine for me at 1G, and lots of other switches work fine for me. so I'm just trying to figure out why you are having so much trouble. If everything just magically worked there'd be no reason for this thread.

[89reksal]

1 hour ago, jabbr said:

Honestly I'm confused about what you are trying to do. If the 1318 module is working in the Mikrotik, what is the problem? Why did you get 4 new modules?

I'm beginning to see why we seem to just keep going around in circles with this discussion. It appears you haven't been reading my posts.

 

The 1318 is an SFP module working at 1G in the Mikrotik CRS305 10G switch (and prior to that a Mikrotik CSS610 switch). That configuration has been working all along as stated in multiple posts. I've been asking over the last few pages here how to get an SFP+ module to work at 1G in these switches.

 

I got 4 new modules (4 because I'm connecting 2 devices; ER and OM Deluxe) because you've repeatedly stated that the only way to achieve this is with dual rate 1G\10G modules. So following your advice I decided to get 2 new dual rate 1475 modules for the 2 ports at switch end and to be safe, since you and others had commented about using same modules on each end of a link, I also bought 2 new non dual rate 1475 SFP+ modules for the ER and OM connections.

 

Understand now?

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, lasker98 said:

appears you haven't been reading my posts.

Please excuse me if I missed something of critical importance, but this sounds a bit entitled. 

[89reksal]

2 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Please excuse me if I missed something of critical importance, but this sounds a bit entitled.

WOW

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 minutes ago, lasker98 said:

WOW

I must have missed something ?

[89reksal]

4 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I must have missed something ?

This probably should have been your first post. As the owner of this site I would have expected better from you.

[The Computer Audiophile]

30 minutes ago, lasker98 said:

This probably should have been your first post. As the owner of this site I would have expected better from you.

Your post just sounded entitled as if everyone offering free advice is required to read all your posts and understand them fully, else they receive a critical reply from you.
 

Now that you’ve also told me what I should’ve done as well, it’s hard to believe my first impression was wrong. 

[89reksal]

Please delete my account. Thanks.

[Jud]

2 hours ago, jabbr said:

There is a serial interface which allows the switch to interrogate things like vendor code, and many other properties of the device as well as the link. The switch could ask, for example, if the SFP(+) module supports 1000base-X ie 1g

 

Sure. OTOH, as we've both been saying, knowing whether a module and switch combination supports 1g is something we might well want to know before making the purchase and putting them together.

 

So, for example, I plan to use a QNAP-compatible SFP module in a QNAP SFP+ port running to an SFP+ module in the ER port, in the expectation the combination will work, since there was a report of the same working with a Mikrotik switch into an ER without the need for anything beyond plug and play.

 

With the QNAP switch into the Fitlet3, the latter's marketing regarding an SFP+ port that runs at 1G is a little confusing, so I'm probably going to have to do a little research before I can determine whether I'll have to use the same configuration there as with the ER, or whether I can use SFP+ modules in both QNAP and Fitlet3 and have it work "out of the box" (or at all).

[The Computer Audiophile]

24 minutes ago, lasker98 said:

Please delete my account. Thanks.

Sure thing. 

[jabbr]

14 minutes ago, Jud said:

With the QNAP switch into the Fitlet3, the latter's marketing regarding an SFP+ port that runs at 1G is a little confusing, so I'm probably going to have to do a little research before I can determine whether I'll have to use the same configuration there as with the ER, or whether I can use SFP+ modules in both QNAP and Fitlet3 and have it work "out of the box" (or at all).

Switch to switch if one side is running 1000base-LX and the other 1000base-LX they will talk to eachother (that’s 1g singlemode) … SFP(+) modules don’t need to be the same on each side and the only compatibility is that they run the same protocol — 1000base-LX or SX

 

Also haven't seen the Fitlet3 and have no idea if the SFP+ port which only runs at 1G is a typo or more subtle power issues etc. I don't think there is any reason to run an SFP+ module in it except if you have one laying around and want to check it out. I got scores of SFP(+) modules that I use for testing etc. I get them on ebay, indeed posted about this awhile ago ... and others do the same: https://www.servethehome.com/get-an-intel-silicon-photonics-100gbe-qsfp28-optic-sptsbp2clks-100g-cwdm4/

 

[jabbr]

Let me summarize a few things about SFP, SFP+ compatibility and connecting 10g capable and 1g devices:

 

1) you do NOT need to run the same SFP/SFP+ part number/model on each side of a link, rather they must both run the same protocol e.g. 1000base-LX, 10GBASE-SR etc

2) SFP ports and modules run ethernet at 1g i.e. 1000base-X, they may run other protocols at higher speeds e.g. 2g

3) switches ARE NOT required to use a specific SFP/SFP+ module in a port, they have compatibility lists that may not be comprehensive

4) SFP+ modules often work at 1g in SFP ports but no guarantee

5) SFP modules frequently run in SFP+ ports at 1g

6) While its possible that a switch could run a 10G SFP+ module at 1G via a setting it often won't and certainly isn't required to support a protocol that the module doesn't advertise itself as supporting

7) dual rate 10g/1g modules advertise themselves as supporting both 10g and 1g, if the switch supports both rates in a particular port and if the switch supports the module then it SHOULD run both rates with that port/module

 

I'm not going to argue with whatever else has been written on the Internet, or even this site, about this topic, YMMV

[Jud]

27 minutes ago, jabbr said:

I don't think there is any reason to run an SFP+ module in it except if you have one laying around and want to check it out.

 

Just thinking of the possibility that, for example, a future firmware upgrade might enable the port to run at 10G (or if it is really a typo, which seems unlikely), in which case I'd already have the appropriate modules installed. The one I'd get isn't expensive, so cost is not a consideration here.

 

Edit: I've sent a note to C-Lab asking whether SFP+ modules at both ends of the Fitlet3-QNAP connection would work. Let's see what they say.