UpTone Audio USB Regen Listening Impressions

[CortlandApple13]

I do not think the test can work, because of the fleeting nature of auditory memory (two seconds or less), unless someone figures out a "tell" or "cheat" for the test.

 

Jud, I agree with you about the fleeting nature of auditory memory. I have tried to do an A/B test with and without my Regen, but the time required for unplugging and plugging was too long to maintain an accurate auditory memory.

 

What do you think the second half of about Mark Waldrep's test where he will perform a "reverse polarity" test?

I’m going to capture the output of the Mac with and without the REGEN and do a polarity reverse in one file. I’m going to see if they null each other. If they do, it will show that the digital data coming from the REGEN and straight from the computer are identical. For me, that’s proof enough that the DAC will produce the exact same analog output signal. We’ll see.

 

Thanks,

 

Victor

[pl_svn]

the real question is... who has the nerve to tell Alex he has sub-standard equipments?

 

:lol:

[jtwrace]

Tests like that really are just entertainment to me at best. If you want to know what it does just buy one. It's $175 which is peanuts in this hobby.

[Jud]

Jud, I agree with you about the fleeting nature of auditory memory. I have tried to do an A/B test with and without my Regen, but the time required for unplugging and plugging was too long to maintain an accurate auditory memory.

 

What do you think the second half of about Mark Waldrep's test where he will perform a "reverse polarity" test?

I’m going to capture the output of the Mac with and without the REGEN and do a polarity reverse in one file. I’m going to see if they null each other. If they do, it will show that the digital data coming from the REGEN and straight from the computer are identical. For me, that’s proof enough that the DAC will produce the exact same analog output signal. We’ll see.

 

Thanks,

 

Victor

 

You have a metal tape measure ruled to the mm and want to know if it expands and contracts with temperature. To find out, you measure against (a) another metal tape measure ruled to the mm; or (b) a micrometer made of material you know does not expand or contract with temperature.

 

Mark has chosen (a). I think (b) is what you would need if you wanted to make sure you were measuring what you intended to rather than the error or "noise" in your measurement equipment.

[jtwrace]

Every metal material changes with temperature from my objective testing. :-) But yes, you are correct...do it right!

[Jud]

Every metal material changes with temperature from my objective testing. :-) But yes, you are correct...do it right!

 

Some just not as much.

 

Have an illustrative story later when I'm back at a real keyboard.

[Jud]

Every metal material changes with temperature from my objective testing. :-) But yes, you are correct...do it right!

 

BTW - was thinking of plastic micrometers; do they make those?

[jtwrace]

BTW - was thinking of plastic micrometers; do they make those?

 

Yes, but they're as accurate as Mark's test. ;-)

[jtwrace]

Some just not as much.

 

It's all relative...

[JohnSwenson]

What do you think the second half of about Mark Waldrep's test where he will perform a "reverse polarity" test?

I’m going to capture the output of the Mac with and without the REGEN and do a polarity reverse in one file. I’m going to see if they null each other. If they do, it will show that the digital data coming from the REGEN and straight from the computer are identical. For me, that’s proof enough that the DAC will produce the exact same analog output signal. We’ll see.

 

Thanks,

 

Victor

 

Many such tests have been performed by other people, there are inherent problems with them. First you NEVER get 100 percent cancellation. What you get is a "certain dB null". Part of the problem is syncing the two streams up properly, if you are off even by a tiny bit all bets are off. The clock in the DACs and ADCs can actually drift slightly between runs which again makes this kind of test difficult.

 

There are programs out there which attempt to process the two streams and account for these issues. But even with them you rarely get better than an 70db null.

 

But what happens is then a bunch of people say a 70 db null is good enough, nobody can hear anything that low anyway so it has been proven they are identical.

 

The big issue here is we don't know what the analog effects actually are. When you listen to the music and say it sounds "more real", nobody actually knows what electrical signal change caused that realism change. Since we don't know that, there is no way to tell whether a 70db null is good enough or not to establish analog identity.

 

Another issue is the ADC used to sample the analog signal from the DAC, IF what is happening is caused by small jitter changes, then you want an ADC that has significantly lower jitter than what is causing the effect. Such devices do not exist. The best ADCs have jitter on the same order as the jitter of the best DACs, This makes it very problematic to use them for measuring DACs.

 

The biggest problem here is not knowing the characteristic of "what makes it sound more real", if we knew THAT it might be possible to develop specific measurements to detect differences in it.

 

Tests such as this one being performed are more like a shotgun rather than a focused laser beam.

 

John S.

[Tony Lauck]

Jud, I agree with you about the fleeting nature of auditory memory. I have tried to do an A/B test with and without my Regen, but the time required for unplugging and plugging was too long to maintain an accurate auditory memory.

 

What do you think the second half of about Mark Waldrep's test where he will perform a "reverse polarity" test?

I’m going to capture the output of the Mac with and without the REGEN and do a polarity reverse in one file. I’m going to see if they null each other. If they do, it will show that the digital data coming from the REGEN and straight from the computer are identical. For me, that’s proof enough that the DAC will produce the exact same analog output signal. We’ll see.

 

Thanks,

 

Victor

 

It's a bitch doing real experiments. If you believe in measurements you could connect the output of the DAC to an A/D and capture the stream with and without the Regen and then use appropriate software (if any exists, which I doubt) to analyze the results. If you believe in listening tests then you could use two identical DACs, make sure that they are precisely level balanced, and then run both of them at the same time off of an identical synchronized sources. If you are a first class experimenter, you will figure out all the various ways that might go wrong and take that into account in devising your experimental procedure.

 

Or you can just listen to music.

[Sanderman]

I plugged the regen into my Win7 photo editing machine and it worked. Checking Device manager the driver associated with it is asmthub3.sys

 

When I plug it into the server and look at device manager it is listed as not working and Windows can't find a driver. Anyone know what driver to use with this thing on a Server 2012R2 based Intel machine and where to download it?

 

Hi Sanderman,

 

I am not sure if this is the case, but I will refer to one answer from John (Swenson) about this kind of problem...

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f10-music-servers/uptone-audio-regen-22803/index106.html#post461084

[mourip]

I plugged the regen into my Win7 photo editing machine and it worked. Checking Device manager the driver associated with it is asmthub3.sys

 

When I plug it into the server and look at device manager it is listed as not working and Windows can't find a driver. Anyone know what driver to use with this thing on a Server 2012R2 based Intel machine and where to download it?

 

Are you using AO in Core mode? If so you may need to exit back to GUI mode so that plug n' pray will pick it up.

[junker]

Atkinson didn't see a difference on an AP with and w/o a Jitterbug bug but insisted he could hear a difference.

[CortlandApple13]

Many such tests have been performed by other people, there are inherent problems with them. First you NEVER get 100 percent cancellation. What you get is a "certain dB null". Part of the problem is syncing the two streams up properly, if you are off even by a tiny bit all bets are off. The clock in the DACs and ADCs can actually drift slightly between runs which again makes this kind of test difficult.

 

There are programs out there which attempt to process the two streams and account for these issues. But even with them you rarely get better than an 70db null.

 

But what happens is then a bunch of people say a 70 db null is good enough, nobody can hear anything that low anyway so it has been proven they are identical.

 

The big issue here is we don't know what the analog effects actually are. When you listen to the music and say it sounds "more real", nobody actually knows what electrical signal change caused that realism change. Since we don't know that, there is no way to tell whether a 70db null is good enough or not to establish analog identity.

 

Another issue is the ADC used to sample the analog signal from the DAC, IF what is happening is caused by small jitter changes, then you want an ADC that has significantly lower jitter than what is causing the effect. Such devices do not exist. The best ADCs have jitter on the same order as the jitter of the best DACs, This makes it very problematic to use them for measuring DACs.

 

The biggest problem here is not knowing the characteristic of "what makes it sound more real", if we knew THAT it might be possible to develop specific measurements to detect differences in it.

 

Tests such as this one being performed are more like a shotgun rather than a focused laser beam.

 

John S.

 

 

John, thanks for your detailed answer.

 

Considering that nothing about this subject appears to black-and-white, it is surprising to me that the "bits-are-bits" proponents are so sure of themselves.

 

I will look forward to reading Mark Waldrep's test results this afternoon and then reading the comments sure to follow.

 

Victor

[Jud]

Some just not as much.

 

Have an illustrative story later when I'm back at a real keyboard.

 

A favorite old lawyer's war story from back when the red blood of a litigator flowed through my veins:

 

There had been a series of cases involving truck tire failures - don't remember whether it was Goodyear or Firestone or someone else. Our firm wound up with one of them - a tire had blown out and the truck had overturned, killing the driver. Our firm hired an expert witness, who was shepherded at his deposition (out of court examination and sworn testimony prior to trial) by a senior partner. The opposition lawyer started with this question:

 

"Sir, is there such a thing as a perfect tire?"

 

Great question, because if you say yes you're obviously lying, and if you say no, now we're into the whole slippery slope thing. Seeing our expert obviously struggling with how to answer this, the opposition attorney pressed his advantage:

 

"Come on sir, you can't make a perfect tire, now can you?"

 

A smile slowly spread across our expert's face as he replied, "No, but you can make a mighty fine tire."

 

So no perfect measurements, but you can make some mighty fine ones.

[Sanderman]

Are you using AO in Core mode? If so you may need to exit back to GUI mode so that plug n' pray will pick it up.

 

 

I'm running in GUI mode. Plug 'n play is active in Services.

 

Joe

[Jud]

John, thanks for your detailed answer.

 

Considering that nothing about this subject appears to black-and-white, it is surprising to me that the "bits-are-bits" proponents are so sure of themselves.

 

I will look forward to reading Mark Waldrep's test results this afternoon and then reading the comments sure to follow.

 

Victor

 

The response I hear most often is that considering the descriptions of degrees of difference from subjectivists, the impression of a difference ought to be able to survive quite a lot of "play" in test procedures.

 

A couple of comments about John's post with respect to this:

 

- As John mentioned, what you'll find is a lot of commentary saying that nulls down to (x) dB leave no room for the degree of difference mentioned by subjective reports.

 

- Something else John mentioned that I think should be highlighted with regard to such null testing is the difficulty of actually lining up the two responses correctly in time. This has to be done using judgment, i.e., *subjectively*. Every report I've seen that has mentioned the need to line up responses has said it was done to maximize the null. QED!

 

Thus the experiments find what the experimenters expected to find, so not terribly surprising neither the results nor the methods used to obtain them are subject to a great deal of doubt or questioning.

[Sanderman]

Are you using AO in Core mode? If so you may need to exit back to GUI mode so that plug n' pray will pick it up.

 

 

I neglected to mention that I'm running the Paul Pang USB V4 card and that's what I've been plugging into on my server. I just tried one of my MoBo USB ports instead and it worked just fine. I'm running the driver Paul steered me to for his card.

 

Anyone else using a PP card with the REGEN?

[Superdad]

Hello Superdad,

 

This is my first substantial post on CA. I have become fascinated with improving the streaming sound on my iMac Retina for the past 6 months. As a major part of my audiophile education, I read the New Posts on CA every day.

 

Along with new speakers and a new DAC, I purchased a Regen and am happy with the SQ improvement. I want to understand more about why “bits are bits” or why “bits are not bits” so I can make wise purchasing decisions.

 

…snip...

 

Alex, have you been in communication with Mark about his test?

 

Do you agree that his test conditions are appropriate?

 

If you do not agree, how would you change the test conditions?

 

Thanks,

 

Victor Siegle

 

Dear Victor:

 

First off, I'm glad to see you posting--and glad to hear that you are enjoying the REGEN in your system.

 

With regards to Mark Waldrep and his campaign:

Both Michael Lavorgna (Editor, AudioStream) and I have posts in that Real-HD Audio.com thread "awaiting moderation," which means they may or may not get posted depending upon Mr. Waldrep's fortitude.

 

So in the meantime I will share both of our posts here:

 

Michael's first:

===========

Re. your “test”, you have already put the following stakes in the ground (these are all quotes from you):

 

“But is the REGEN going to make a difference in a truly high-end system? No, it won’t.”

“Although, I’m willing to accept that the REGEN and devices like it may work for some people that have substandard gear.”

“Over the years since I first met him [John Siau of Benchmark], he has become a friend and one of my goto guys when it comes to the technical merits of this or that system, format, or accessory.”

“Tomorrow Russ brings his friend’s REGEN box, his Benchmark DAC2 and a few other cables and such. I’ve invited a few LA and OC Audio Society friends to come and participate in the evaluation of the device.”

 

You want us to believe that you are going to provide an unbiased “test” of a device you know won’t work, played through your friend’s DAC, which, if you admit to hearing a difference with the REGEN, by your words is necessarily “substandard gear”.

 

That’s about as big a hole as any I’ve ever met. It will be interesting to see if and how you can dig yourself out of it.

 

 

 

And mine, which I wrote before Michael copied me on his:

=======================

Dear Mr. Waldrep:

 

I am the owner of UpTone Audio LLC, and thus the producer of the USB REGEN (designed by my associate, the well known John Swenson). I have followed off and on your conversations with Michael Lavorgna and your postulations about what the REGEN does or does not do. Now that you are about to "test" one for yourself, it seem prudent for me to make a few comments in advance:

 

1) As an industry professional with a web site and readership, it seems highly irregular and somewhat unethical for you to engage in a supposed objective review of a product (your bias and preconceived notions aside) without contacting the manufacturer (me) to ask permission or a single question about design or use of the device.

 

2) I can tell you right now that you will not measure any difference in the bits, and if that is, as you have stated, your only criteria for judging the efficacy of the device then you are wasting you time.

 

3) Despite M. Lavorgna imploring you to read the condensed "white paper" of ours (published at the front of the AudioStream review of the REGEN: UpTone Audio USB REGEN | AudioStream) you continue to misconstrue the mechanisms by which the REGEN works (improving signal integrity at the input of the DAC so that the DAC's PHY chip leaves its pre-processing circuits off, thus generating less ground-plane and packet-noise and fewer current/voltage spikes on the PS).

 

4) Surprisingly, you also seem to mis-understand asynchronous DAC clocking and the role (or lack thereof) played by the 24.0MHz USB clock. The clocks running the hub chip and PHY in the REGEN and the same function clock (typically 12Mhz or 24.0MHz) at the USB or Ethernet input of a DAC have absolutely no relation to the DACs master clock(s) or jitter developed inside the DAC. And NEVER do we claim the REGEN delivers a "lower jitter" signal to the DAC.

 

5) If you would study the chips and input architecture common to all USB-input DACs, you would understand that what is input to these stages is not bits at all, but high-frequency voltages with variations that must be decoded. First by the PHY chip (a nasty beast with several PLLs and internal clocks at various phases), and then by a MAC USB protocol engine (in an FPGA, XMOS, Cmedia or other custom chip). And it is here where jitter and pernicious ground-plane noise starts. All the isolators and reclocking flops in the world can't keep all of that from reaching the master clock. The place to measure jitter is at the input of the DAC chip, but I am certain you are not set up for that.

 

6) If you wish to see tangible evidence of the effect the REGEN has on signal integrity, then you will have to get yourself a 3-4GHz scope and set up for eye-pattern testing. John Swenson has done just that, and we will soon publish such measurements showing the functioning. Yet just this morning someone sent me a link to post where well known engineer John Westlake (late of AudioLab) ran an eye-pattern test on a USB signal without and with a REGEN. He posted the graphs and talks a bit about what he saw:

MDAC First Listen (Part 00101001) - Page 46 - pink fish media

 

7) The REGEN works the same for DACs from modest to extreme. If one can hear even a slight difference with a USB cable feeding your DAC, then you should hear an even bigger difference with the REGEN--if properly used. To maintain the improved signal integrity and impedance match, the REGEN should be positioned at the input of the DAC by use of the solid USB male/male A>B adaptor provided. Putting a USB cable after the REGEN will reduce--but not eliminate--its effectiveness.

 

8) While you may consider the Benchmark DACs high-end (and thank goodness they finally moved away from the ASRC of the earlier models), they are decidedly very much in the low-to-middle range of DACs our customers are successfully using the REGEN with. Some of our clients are using reference-level DACs from Berkeley, dCS, PS Audio, exaSound, Meitner, MSB, Resonessence, Auralic, and Schiit just to name a few.

 

9) I agree that the bits are the bits. But they are not bits until they are turned into such--and THAT DOES NOT HAPPEN UNTIL THE OUTPUT OF THE DAC's USB INPUT STAGE.

 

So please do your readers a service and skip trying to measure data differences that I can tell you right now won't be there. And the trouble with trying to measure the analog output is that the ADC chips of the measurement gear are going to obscure the nature of the improvement as well. That's a whole other argument and controversy that could go on ad infinitum, but even if you measure analog variations (the magnitude of what so many hear with the REGEN really ought to be measurable), how to correlate those to qualitative differences is a separate challenge.

 

My telephone number is on our website and messages via the contact page come directly to my e-mail account. I trust you will show integrity in performing your evaluation and that you will lend an open ear and mind as well. The REGEN is not "snake oil." It is solid engineering to address a very real issue limiting the sonic performance of the USB interface.

 

Sincerely,

 

Alex J. Crespi

UpTone Audio LLC

========================

 

By the way, do check out the eye-patterns that John Westlake posted at that Pinkfish Media link I cited. Not a surprise, but it is nice to see someone else show what actually happens. Eye-patterns don't prove the susceptibility of DACs to variations in signal integrity, but they sure do support the proposition of that mechanism when combined with what you hear.

[sandyk]

I'm going to capture the output of the Mac with and without the REGEN and do a polarity reverse in one file. I'm going to see if they null each other. If they do, it will show that the digital data coming from the REGEN and straight from the computer are identical. For me, that's proof enough that the DAC will produce the exact same analog output signal. We'll see.

 

 

What a stupid waste of time ! It would appear that he doesn't wish to believe that the Regen is capable of making such marked improvements, especially if the supplied +7.5 SMPS plugpack is replaced by/augmented with an improved PSU.

 

Extract from an email received from a participant at a recent Sydney listening session

WOW! What a positive difference your diy power supply made when plugged in to the Regen. I stopped analysing the sound and was enveloped in the music....

The best part is that Alex C will soon be supplying a John Swenson designed, improved PSU that will almost certainly put my simple DIY PSU to shame.

 

Alex

[zilch0md]

The best part is that Alex C will soon be supplying a John Swenson designed, improved PSU that will almost certainly put my simple DIY PSU to shame.

 

Amen!

 

And if UpTone puts it in a case made of borosilicate glass, it will have a low coefficient of expansion (just in case anyone tries to measure it with a metal ruler).

 

:-)

 

Mike

[rickca]

I'd like to know how Mark Waldrep can make statements like

I would prefer to use Amarra because I believe it does the best at playing back the digital information

or how he how he has selected 'a couple of good USB cables'

given his approach to this test.

 

Maybe he needs to subject Amarra and his cables to similar tests, since he clearly thinks those components sound better. I just want him to be consistent.

 

Of course, he may just decide that the REGEN actually does sound better despite not being able to account for it.

 

[YashN]

well known engineer John Westlake (late of AudioLab) ran an eye-pattern test on a USB signal without and with a REGEN. He posted the graphs and talks a bit about what he saw:

MDAC First Listen (Part 00101001) - Page 46 - pink fish media

 

Very interesting screenshots by Westlake here and very cogent reply, but bear in mind it can fall on deaf ears for someone with an agenda.

 

I'd mention the Trinity DAC too in the list of high-end DACs which are known to benefit, Lampis as well, correct?

[Superdad]

Of course, he may just decide that the REGEN actually does sound better despite not being able to account for it.

 

And maybe you will look up in the sky tomorrow and see this: