Uptone Audio Regen

[Lionelh2]

I was thinking of ordering a SOtM battery supply to power my SMS-100 mini server. But I realized I could use it to power the Regen instead and see which way it made more difference.

 

Any one have the SOtM battery supply and a Regen? Would be interested to hear what the combo sounds like.

 

I have the REGEN Green Feeding the REGEN Amber setup. I am powering the Green with the supplied MeanWell PS and powering the Amber with the SOtM battery supply. Sounds awesome. I initially had the power setup the other way ( Green SOtM power and Amber MeanWell) and it didn't sound as good.

[zilch0md]

 

Hey guys! (@Nicolas_S and @lmitche)

 

Researching your affordable isolation transformers, I came across this 2004 thread in the avsforum.

 

High Performance Tripp-Lite Toroidal Isolation Transformer - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

 

Please tell me what you think of the OP's claims and the unanswered question in post #6, especially.

 

Why would it be beneficial (or not beneficial) to "float" the secondary, by disconnecting it from "the neutral of its A/C outlet"?

 

Thanks!

 

Mike

 

I've now found several audiophile references where local "experts" are saying that an Isolation Transformer should "float" the neutral output of the secondary coil, that it should not be connected to ground. (Neither lead of the secondary should be connected to ground.) It is generally claimed by these audiophiles that this will reduce noise coming in from the mains.

 

I've also found several non-audiophile references where "floating" the secondary outputs is said to provide greater safety (to the equipment that's plugged into the isolation transformer).

 

Now here's the weird thing: I can also find several non-audiophile references, where it's said that grounding the neutral from the secondary will reduce common mode noise.

 

Which leaves me in a quandary because reducing common mode noise by grounding the neutral of the secondary coil seems to be something every audiophile would want, and yet, floating the secondary is what most audiophiles seem to prefer, claiming that doing so reduces noise from the mains.

 

What's going on here? Anybody?

 

(For the record, all Tripp-Lite Isolation Transformers have the secondary's neutral grounded - not floated.)

 

Mike

[Daudio]

I've now found several audiophile references where local "experts" are saying that an Isolation Transformer should "float" the neutral output of the secondary coil...

 

Mike,

 

I think you posted this in the wrong thread ?

[zilch0md]

Hi Daudio,

 

Mike,

 

I think you posted this in the wrong thread ?

 

I realize that, at first glance, it might seem off-topic, but I'm responding to posts recently made to this thread, where Nicholas_S and Imitche had both said they use Tripp-Lite isolation transformers.

 

Should I start a new thread called USB Regen Power Conditioning? :-)

 

Just kidding... I think we have enough Regen threads, but I'm willing to post discussions of Regen power conditioning anywhere you think it's more appropriate. I'm just looking for answers.

 

Thanks,

 

Mike

[Daudio]

Should I start a new thread called USB Regen Power Conditioning?,

 

 

Mike,

 

Sure ! Not enough Regen threads !!!

 

[Superdad]

Should I start a new thread called USB Regen Power Conditioning?

 

No, but one discussing isolation transformers would be interesting to me. I use two smallish 1:1 transformers for my front end gear, and their secondaries are not grounded. Also of interest to me are the Equi-Tech balanced transformers which as far as I understand are just 1:1 trannys with a grounded center tap. Is that right?

[YashN]

No, but one discussing isolation transformers would be interesting to me.

 

Also of interest to me are the Equi-Tech balanced transformers which as far as I understand are just 1:1 trannys with a grounded center tap. Is that right?

 

Alex, head over here:

 

AC Filtering, Grounding Boxes, Linear PSU and Balanced Power.

[lmitche]

No, but one discussing isolation transformers would be interesting to me. I use two smallish 1:1 transformers for my front end gear, and their secondaries are not grounded. Also of interest to me are the Equi-Tech balanced transformers which as far as I understand are just 1:1 trannys with a grounded center tap. Is that right?

 

Hi Alex,

 

Yesterday, I floated the ground on my Tripplite IS1000 at the base of my power system. My amp, which has a ground/floating ground switch is connected directly to the IS1000. My digital components are all individually powered by 4 Tripplite IS250s plugged into the IS1000.

 

The step function difference in sound quality is easily as big as adding the REGEN to the USB line. After researching the potential safety issues, I see no major problems. Also the IS1000 no longer hums what so ever.

 

Strangely re-listening to my music library has revealed some tracks that were un-listenable before, that now are potentially the best sounding tracks in the library.

 

Still haven't decided which position of the ground/floating ground switch on the amp sounds best.

 

I realize this modification has disabled the ability of the IS1000 to reject common mode noise. Oh well, I am delighted with the trade-off.

 

It seems that every week I find another way to improve SQ. Is this ever going to stop?

 

Larry

[Superdad]

Alex, head over here:

 

AC Filtering, Grounding Boxes, Linear PSU and Balanced Power.

 

Yeah, I've been following that thread since you started it. But all that ground rod stuff bores me. I "float" everything in my system as I have nothing but disdain for the crap that runs around a house ground. My room has a dedicated sub-panel with 000awg wire going 20 feet back to the main panel, and I have one perfectly decent ground spike for the whole house. The power pole utility transformer feeding my house is just for my house as we are in a rural area. So my house mains is pretty clean, especially since when I put both panels in I optimized where I put the noisy loads (after shutting off all the house breakers and choosing which side of the 120/0/120 sounds better for my system--that's one of the most important SQ things you can do for your stereo mains and does not cost a dime).

 

But this whole business of grounding the output side of an isolation trans has me scratching my head since one does not normally ground the neutral of outlets (while of course back at the main panel they ARE "bonded" to ground). I'm going to ask John a bit about this when have our call tonight.

 

So yes, maybe the topic of isolation transformers deserves its own thread, especially since there are some other interesting ways to make a "good sounding" 1:1 trans (tight is not always best, loose coupling has some advantages).

 

Ciao,

--Alex C.

[Superdad]

It seems that every week I find another way to improve SQ. Is this ever going to stop?

 

I've been tweaking since I was 12 in 1974, so probably not!

 

Yesterday, I floated the ground on my Tripplite IS1000 at the base of my power system.

 

Was that the input side of your transformer (where it connects to the wall)? Or the output side in that what you plugged into it essentially got a cheater plug such that you did not use the ground pin of its outlets?

Or did you do something else to your IS1000 on the inside? (I am still not clear about the circuit or mod that people are doing with their IS1000. Something is weird there.)

 

As I stated in the prior post, I float everything. (I don't use cheater plugs, I just pull back the cover of the Marinco/Wattgate mains plugs of my power cords and disconnect/tape the ground wire.) It is especially important that the chassis grounds of components don't "see" each other--other than through their interconnect grounds--but that is not the only benefit of floating.

[YashN]

Yeah, I've been following that thread since you started it. But all that ground rod stuff bores me.

 

There is a single 'ground rod' mention in that thread, which was rather rapidly dimissed in a couple of subsequent posts.

[Daudio]

The power... that's one of the most important SQ things you can do for your stereo mains and does not cost a dime).

 

Wow !

 

USB signal integrety, vibration isolation, power/ground cleaning. Real, significant, audible, achievable, improvements to our beloved Sound Quality. Without megabuck hardware (mostly).

 

Wonderful !

 

And all this without the usual Sub/Obj brawls ?

 

Outstanding !

 

The promise of CA and online audio forums unfolding, and in my lifetime ? Who'd a thunk it ?

 

Thanks All ! carry on...

[YashN]

It seems that every week I find another way to improve SQ. Is this ever going to stop?

Larry

 

Unfortunately, not until you tell yourself to stop because as soon as you correct a weakness in the chain, the next weakest one becomes apparent

[YashN]

As I stated in the prior post, I float everything. (I don't use cheater plugs, I just pull back the cover of the Marinco/Wattgate mains plugs of my power cords and disconnect/tape the ground wire.) It is especially important that the chassis grounds of components don't "see" each other--other than through their interconnect grounds--but that is not the only benefit of floating.

 

I'd rather not do that myself and instead try to properly fix the overall power and grounding (within means), so no floating of grounds, but rather trying to get chassis properly grounded, and signals cleaned-up properly.

[lmitche]

I've been tweaking since I was 12 in 1974, so probably not!

 

 

 

Was that the input side of your transformer (where it connects to the wall)? Or the output side in that what you plugged into it essentially got a cheater plug such that you did not use the ground pin of its outlets?

Or did you do something else to your IS1000 on the inside? (I am still not clear about the circuit or mod that people are doing with their IS1000. Something is weird there.)

 

As I stated in the prior post, I float everything. (I don't use cheater plugs, I just pull back the cover of the Marinco/Wattgate mains plugs of my power cords and disconnect/tape the ground wire.) It is especially important that the chassis grounds of components don't "see" each other--other than through their interconnect grounds--but that is not the only benefit of floating.

 

Inside the IS1000 is strap from the transformer secondary neutral output to a star earths ground. I removed the groundstrap from the neutral post at the outlet. Now it is truly an isolation transformer.

[Nicholas_S]

Inside the IS1000 is strap from the transformer secondary neutral output to a star earths ground. I removed the groundstrap from the neutral post at the outlet. Now it is truly an isolation transformer.

 

Do you have a picture of the strap removal to share with the curious folks here?

[sandyk]

Inside the IS1000 is strap from the transformer secondary neutral output to a star earths ground. I removed the groundstrap from the neutral post at the outlet. Now it is truly an isolation transformer.

 

And if you receive a full on electric shock from the mains side of gear that is connected to it, will your ELCB still save your bacon from becoming crispy ?

[zilch0md]

Hi Alex,

 

No, but one discussing isolation transformers would be interesting to me. I use two smallish 1:1 transformers for my front end gear, and their secondaries are not grounded. Also of interest to me are the Equi-Tech balanced transformers which as far as I understand are just 1:1 trannys with a grounded center tap. Is that right?

 

Yes!

 

 

Quoting Audio Noise and AC Systems

 

... a 120-volt, two-phase grounded system applied to a typical EMI/RFI filter. The phase to ground voltage on each side of the AC line is about 60 Volts. Each line of the iso-transformer output is 180 degrees out of phase to the other, therefor a 120-volt potential between the lines is present. When this voltage is applied to an EMI/RFI filter, the current passed through the capacitors is nulled at the common chassis ground by its inversely phased counterpart. Obviously, this noise cancellation effect on the ground is beneficial for audio circuits.

 

Mike

[lmitche]

And if you receive a full on electric shock from the mains side of gear that is connected to it, will your ELCB still save your bacon from becoming crispy ?

 

Hi Sandyk,

 

Specifically, what circumstances would make that happen?

 

Larry

[lmitche]

Do you have a picture of the strap removal to share with the curious folks here?

 

I don't have a picture, but there is a nice video here of the procedure:

 

[zilch0md]

No, but one discussing isolation transformers would be interesting to me. I use two smallish 1:1 transformers for my front end gear, and their secondaries are not grounded.

 

I am intrigued by your use of "two smallish isolation transformers" as I've recently read a CA post written by One and a half that implies bigger is not necessarily better with isolation transformers.

 

As the VA rating of the isolation transformer rises relative to the load it serves, the impedance is reduced and you start to lose the current-smoothing benefits. Going much higher than 2x the load you will lose this benefit. (I've not been able to find corroborating evidence of this elsewhere, but I'm still searching.)

 

In my case, the DAC and headphone amp, plus a small TeraDak LSR to power the Regen and DAC, will only pull a maximum of 46VA at 110V.

 

How many Watts is 46VA? For that you need to know the Power Factor (PF), but let's assume it's 0.8.

 

P_(W) = S_(VA) × PF

 

46 VA * 0.8 = 36.8 Watts

 

 

So, if there's some truth to One and a half's statement (and I have no reason to doubt him as he seems to be very well versed on this stuff), even if the Power Factor were 1.0, I should avoid isolation transformers rated higher than 2x 46 Watts = 92 Watts.

 

 

About the only collaboration I've found along these lines is this avsforum contributor, who advocates not only floating the neutral in the Tripp-Lite is1000 (that Imitch and Nicolas_S use), but also severing the connection between the two massive torroidal coils, to essentially convert the 1000W isolation transformer into two completely independent 500W isolation transformers inside a single chassis (except for sharing magnetic fields?), as seen in this photo - note the cut wire (that has yet to be taped):

 

 

(Note: The cut wire seen in this photo is NOT how you float the secondary coils in an is1000 - but rather how you segregate the two coils so that there's no connection between one pair of outlets and the other pair of outlets.)

 

 

So, having recently bought a 500W Tripp-Lite is500, where I've not yet cut the secondary's neutral to ground, I'm thinking of replacing it with individual, small isolation transformers for each load, all of them with floating grounds, with each of them rated no more than 2x the load they each serve. (I'm still researching...)

 

 

Mike

[sandyk]

Hi Sandyk,

 

Specifically, what circumstances would make that happen?

 

Larry

 

See reply 191 by One and a half. He is an expert in this area.

You may be willing to take the small risk, but what about other family members ?

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/ac-filtering-grounding-boxes-linear-power-supply-unit-and-balanced-power-24916/index8.html

[zilch0md]

Alex, head over here:

 

AC Filtering, Grounding Boxes, Linear PSU and Balanced Power.

 

Thanks for posting this link YashN!

[zilch0md]

Hi Larry!

 

Hi Alex,

 

Yesterday, I floated the ground on my Tripplite IS1000 at the base of my power system. M

 

(snip)

 

Strangely re-listening to my music library has revealed some tracks that were un-listenable before, that now are potentially the best sounding tracks in the library.

 

(snip)

 

I realize this modification has disabled the ability of the IS1000 to reject common mode noise. Oh well, I am delighted with the trade-off.

 

It seems that every week I find another way to improve SQ. Is this ever going to stop?

 

Larry

 

I'm encouraged to read your findings having floated the is1000's secondary. I'm seeing a consensus, in all the reading I've done on isolation transformers, that says (as you've said here) that even though floating the secondary comes at the expense of no longer enjoying common mode noise rejection, there are many audible benefits that outweigh the loss of common mode noise rejection (had with a grounded neutral on the secondary).

 

Mike

[zilch0md]

 

(snip)

 

I "float" everything in my system as I have nothing but disdain for the crap that runs around a house ground. My room has a dedicated sub-panel with 000awg wire going 20 feet back to the main panel, and I have one perfectly decent ground spike for the whole house. The power pole utility transformer feeding my house is just for my house as we are in a rural area. So my house mains is pretty clean, especially since when I put both panels in I optimized where I put the noisy loads (after shutting off all the house breakers and choosing which side of the 120/0/120 sounds better for my system--that's one of the most important SQ things you can do for your stereo mains and does not cost a dime).

 

(snip)

 

--Alex C.

 

The power pole transformer feeding my house (and others) happens to be right at one corner of my back yard, but I sure don't have any 000 AWG coming to my listening room on a dedicated on a panel! That's awesome!