DSD downloads worth the trouble?

[Hiro]

One thing about Tascam is clear - input and output section is performed with electrolytic capacitors, if I buy that Tascam, I will replace all caps in analog signal tracks for MKP caps. That difference is known to me . Like light cloud on sound...

 

The converter was built to a price point, and that means there's probably room for some tweaks

 

It's impressive that Tascam closed in $1000 for an ADC + DAC in one box, by the way.

[Maldur]

It's impressive that Tascam closed in $1000 for an ADC + DAC in one box, by the way.

 

I think, there is more - linear power block,1ppm master clock, good quality headphone amplifier... all this in 1U package!

 

SDIF-3 input is yet another interesting possibility, I have one more Amanero Combo for that, and I finished SDIF-3 output on my old SACD player.

[bmoura]

How big the difference in sound quality is with these ADC converters? (...thinking about buying Tascam DA-3000 for my recording needs/for DAC side also...)

 

A lot depends on how much money you have allocated for the ADC. In the entry level price area, Tascam and Korg would be key choices. If you can spend more, ADCs like the Pyramix Horus and the others come into play - especially if you need Quad DSD (DSD256) and Multichannel (the Horus offers 8 Channels of ADC).

[Maldur]

A lot depends on how much money you have allocated for the ADC. In the entry level price area, Tascam and Korg would be key choices. If you can spend more, ADCs like the Pyramix Horus and the others come into play - especially if you need Quad DSD (DSD256) and Multichannel (the Horus offers 8 Channels of ADC).

 

True.

I think, for home environment Horus is too much. Also, stereo channels is enough (for start), DA-3000 has cascade function, so adding some more DA-3000 to the system in future is possible. Unfortunately, QDSD stays unreachable (or who knows - maybe FW update solves this issue (or possibility to record direct to DXD for example)).

Btw. talking about firmware updates - in DA-3000 pictures of innards I see very similar connection point of SATA drives and exact room for 2,5" HDD. Of course, this function is not activated (yet!).

 

Maybe we see in future new version of Tascam DA-3000 with SATA SSD drive....

[bmoura]

True. I think, for home environment Horus is too much.

 

Depends on the need. Some audiophiles are using the Horus/HAPI combination to archive vinyl LPs, SACDs and Reel to Reel Tapes to Quad DSD (DSD256) - in Stereo and Multichannel.

[Hiro]

True.

I think, for home environment Horus is too much. Also, stereo channels is enough (for start), DA-3000 has cascade function, so adding some more DA-3000 to the system in future is possible. Unfortunately, QDSD stays unreachable (or who knows - maybe FW update solves this issue (or possibility to record direct to DXD for example)).

 

Recorders with AD converters utilizing Sigma Delta modulators can't record directly to DXD.

 

DXD (and PCM in general) is produced from either 1-bit or low-bit high speed sigma delta format.

[Hiro]

What a converter like the Tascam DA-3000 allows you to do is record a direct output of its sigma delta modulator. Since the Tascam is using double 1-bit 5.6448MHz modulators (one per channel) you may record directly at that rate, without downsampling, bypassing its PCM decimation filter. When using a DAC with direct DSD128 support you can play it back without PCM reconstruction and oversampling filters.

[Hiro]

My understanding is that Philip O'Hanlon at On A Higher Note bought the last AD1 available months ago. No word on what Grimm might have coming next to replace it. Perhaps an ADC that supports DSD128? Time will tell.

 

Jared Sacks is already using a custom built analog pre amplifier and mixing board from Rens Heijnis (it even has a Channel Classics logo on it )

 

 

I have a feeling that he wouldn't mind adding a custom built DSD128 Grimm converter to his recording chain....

[bmoura]

Jared Sacks is already using a custom built analog pre amplifier and mixing board from Rens Heijnis (it even has a Channel Classics logo on it )

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]14677[/ATTACH]

 

I have a feeling that he wouldn't mind adding a custom built DSD128 Grimm converter to his recording chain....

 

I'm sure he'd be interested in such a product if that is what Grimm is considering for its next product.

[Hiro]

I'm sure he'd be interested in such a product if that is what Grimm is considering for its next product.

 

I wasn't necessarily thinking about Grimm's next product, but rather a custom built unit for Channel Classics (think DSD128-upgraded AD1)

[bmoura]

I wasn't necessarily thinking about Grimm's next product, but rather a custom built unit for Channel Classics (think DSD128-upgraded AD1)

 

Could be. I know that there are photos on Twitter of Channel Classics testing DSD 128 recording at a recent session. My understanding was that session included a Pyramix Horus at DSD 128, not the upgraded AD1 you're thinking about.

 

Of course there could always be future tests of ADCs by Channel Classics at DSD 128 or above. Time will tell.

[Hiro]

Could be. I know that there are photos on Twitter of Channel Classics testing DSD 128 recording at a recent session. My understanding was that session included a Pyramix Horus at DSD 128, not the upgraded AD1 you're thinking about.

 

Of course there could always be future tests of ADCs by Channel Classics at DSD 128 or above. Time will tell.

 

I've heard about the tests as well. I hope that they won't do anything stupid, like changing the current state-of-the-art discrete AD1 converter to some other converter only because it has higher sampling rate, but actually doesn't sound nearly as good.

 

At present Channel Classics webstite still states: "It is no secret that this converter (Grimm AD1) has raised the ‘musical’ level of the recordings for the last two years. Naming all the technical details and improvements in respect to other converters is secondary to just listening and comparing the results."

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for upgrading to DSD 2x, but not at the cost of losing any aspects of the sound the Grimm AD1 excels at, i.e. stunning musicality, ultra-realistic capture of the timbre of the instruments and voices.

 

BTW, since Jared is currently recording a new Rachel Podger project, maybe he could give us a little sample in both Grimm DSD and Horus DSD 2x?

[bmoura]

I've heard about the tests as well. I hope that they won't do anything stupid, like changing the current state-of-the-art discrete AD1 converter to some other converter only because it has higher sampling rate, but actually doesn't sound nearly as good.

 

At present Channel Classics webstite still states: "It is no secret that this converter (Grimm AD1) has raised the ‘musical’ level of the recordings for the last two years. Naming all the technical details and improvements in respect to other converters is secondary to just listening and comparing the results."

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for upgrading to DSD 2x, but not at the cost of losing any aspects of the sound the Grimm AD1 excels at, i.e. stunning musicality, ultra-realistic capture of the timbre of the instruments and voices.

 

BTW, since Jared is currently recording a new Rachel Podger project, maybe he could give us a little sample in both Grimm DSD and Horus DSD 2x?

 

I don't know what equipment is being used on the new Rachel Podger project, but I do know that the test session included both a Grimm and the Horus at DSD 128. So it is possible a sample file or two from that session could become available. Perhaps on the "Just Listen" section of the Native DSD web site. We will see.

[Hiro]

I don't know what equipment is being used on the new Rachel Podger project, but I do know that the test session included both a Grimm and the Horus at DSD 128. So it is possible a sample file or two from that session could become available. Perhaps on the "Just Listen" section of the Native DSD web site. We will see.

 

Looking forward to that. We do indeed need to just listen

[bmoura]

Looking forward to that. We do indeed need to just listen

 

If you've ever been with Jared Sacks, he definitely does that. I saw him in action in May at The Show in Newport Beach. Carefully putting on headphones, setting the volume, carefully listening to different products and at music demos. Nothing escapes his ears.

[Jud]

I've heard about the tests as well. I hope that they won't do anything stupid, like changing the current state-of-the-art discrete AD1 converter to some other converter only because it has higher sampling rate, but actually doesn't sound nearly as good.

 

At present Channel Classics webstite still states: "It is no secret that this converter (Grimm AD1) has raised the ‘musical’ level of the recordings for the last two years. Naming all the technical details and improvements in respect to other converters is secondary to just listening and comparing the results."

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for upgrading to DSD 2x, but not at the cost of losing any aspects of the sound the Grimm AD1 excels at, i.e. stunning musicality, ultra-realistic capture of the timbre of the instruments and voices.

 

BTW, since Jared is currently recording a new Rachel Podger project, maybe he could give us a little sample in both Grimm DSD and Horus DSD 2x?

 

There was a blind test of ADCs at What's Best Forum in which I participated. I liked the Horus best, Grimm next. I asked Bruce Brown of Puget Sound Audio, who made the test recordings, which was closest to the actual sound in the studio. He said the Horus, but he also very much liked the sound of the Grimm.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[One and a half]

I wish I could find the text on the web that mentioned Playback Designs were working on an A/D with the output to DSD. The would certainly increase the front end quality in the studio, but for now unless there's a statement from someone, it's just speculation at this stage.

[Hiro]

There was a blind test of ADCs at What's Best Forum in which I participated. I liked the Horus best, Grimm next. I asked Bruce Brown of Puget Sound Audio, who made the test recordings, which was closest to the actual sound in the studio. He said the Horus, but he also very much liked the sound of the Grimm.

 

Were they these Wilson Audio DSD transfers, by any chance?

 

"For the first time anywhere, I have assembled the best of the best. For the Wilson Audiophile downloads, we did tape transfers though 5 different converters and let the Wilsons listen blindly to the files. Like Daryl said, the differences are not subtle. Now you, the consumer, can decide for yourself."

Interestingly enough, it looks like the Wilson chose neither the Grimm nor Horus.

 

"I did the transfers with several converters and the Wilsons chose the files done from a modified EMM Labs ADC8 IV into a Sonoma workstation at DSD64fs."

Wilson Audio Downloads! - Page 2

 

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

[tailspn]

 

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

 

Remember, these are from tape transfers, which have a very different combination of dynamic range, frequency bandwidth, and transient response than an analog mic(s) feed. The synergy of sources and converters greatly affects the resultant product.

 

We'll have the current ten Wilson Audio releases in metadata tagged dsf format in a few weeks at nativedsd.com. We'll all be able to compare them with similar transfers being done this week by Bob Attiyeh of Yarlung Records with a Horus at 256fs.

[Hiro]

Remember, these are from tape transfers, which have a very different combination of dynamic range, frequency bandwidth, and transient response than an analog mic(s) feed. The synergy of sources and converters greatly affects the resultant product.

 

Good point. Channel Classics direct-to-DSD test recordings done with the Grimm AD1 and Horus will be more informative in absolute terms.

 

We'll have the current ten Wilson Audio releases in metadata tagged dsf format in a few weeks at nativedsd.com. We'll all be able to compare them with similar transfers being done this week by Bob Attiyeh of Yarlung Records with a Horus at 256fs.

 

It's a pity that Bruce Brown didn't do these Wilson Audio DSD transfers at 128fs (the EMM ADC which he used is DSD128 capable as you know).

[davide256]

Pythagoras is even much older now. :hint:

 

We are not living in a newtonian world; Pythagoras does not get you to the quantum dynamics that are why solid state devices work. And in the end

all theories have their gaps where other, newer principles govern more strongly.

[davide256]

I consider the utmost realism in sound quality important, and that is precisely why I choose to stay away from DSD always when possible.

 

The playback hardware inadequacies for just 44.1 playback IMHO took 15 years to reach an acceptable level of playback. I doubt that DSD playback devices are past their infancy yet for full capability development given how recent a phenomena it is.

[spdif-usb]

We are not living in a newtonian world; Pythagoras does not get you to the quantum dynamics that are why solid state devices work. And in the end

all theories have their gaps where other, newer principles govern more strongly.

 

 

[tailspn]

It's a pity that Bruce Brown didn't do these Wilson Audio DSD transfers at 128fs (the EMM ADC which he used is DSD128 capable as you know).

 

It was recorded with a Sonoma, which supports 64fs only (at this time).

[davide256]

Are there at this time any natively DSD recorded commercial downloads that one could use as a reference? The small group recordings or older analog to digital transfers are not convincing to me... yes they sound good but they don't demonstrate the limits of the technology capability that a well engineered full orchestra recording done since 2000 could.