Pono seems totally irrelevant

[mav52]

Rap is to music what graffiti is to art....disposable at best and vandalism always

 

So true

[gmgraves]

And both are doomed to the ash heap of history....

 

 

I hope that you are right. It's fine for people to like this stuff and enjoy listening to it but it's simply not "music" that's going to last much into the future. When the people who bought this trash and made it popular are gone, Mr. Snoop Dog's and Mr. Bieber's work will go with them.

[gmgraves]

Rap is to music what graffiti is to art....disposable at best and vandalism always

 

 

Well said. But people who like this stuff have the right to like it and I wouldn't take that away from them under any circumstances. But even the most ardent fan should understand that it is disposable "music" and like disco before it, will be disposed of when they are through with it.

[gmgraves]

Devolve?.....not likely. Evolve in a direction that you're not in favor of.......probobly. And that's ok.....no need to justify your position, but be equally prepared to accept criticism of it as it involves judgement on multiple levels.

 

 

In case you haven't noticed, the whole world is devolving - actually, going to hell in a hand basket is more like it. And it's only going to get worse.

[InfernoSTi]

Sadly, this thread has continued to be a collection of personal preference with regard to art. It ignores the simple basis of art that it is the creative expression...or equally the expressive creation...of the artist. It is not defined by the number of people who appreciate it nor is it defined by how long it lasts in the collective memories of civilization. Such definitions, while comforting to those who like to create categories of "in" and "out" that bolster their own preferences (as if that were needed), break down the second you think it through logically.

 

For example, let's assume we start with a cello player playing a work of Beethoven in NYC before an audience in a wonderful music hall. Very few would say that is not art. But what makes it art? Is it the work being played (i.e. Beethoven)? Is it the place it is played (i.e. a music hall)? Is the audience it is play in front of (i.e. music lovers who think it is art)? If we start substituting out parts, it becomes hard to say it has to be anything but the act of creative expression/expressive creation. The same work being played alone with no audience or music hall would still be art, so it isn't the location or audience that makes it art. If it were a unique work written by the cellist it would still be art even if not appreciated by the contemporary audience (yes, there are enough examples of the artist not being appreciated until after they die that it is a cliche and needs no proof), so it isn't that it is a famous work that makes it art. In fact, the cello performance does not require recording but can exist only in that one moment in time/space and it is still art, so it need not be passed on for generations for it to be art. The entirety of what makes it art is that the artist is creating expression/expressing creation.

 

This isn't a decline of any kind. In fact, the "great" works of recorded art combine universal human experience with an expression of the current time and technology. Cave paintings have stood the test of time, are still in art history books and studied, and were creative expression/expressive creations of the human experience and used the technology of the time. It makes perfect sense that rock/blues/jazz will be remembered for thousands of years simply because they reflect an age of mankind turning from the industrial era to the information era. Those works that reflect universal/timely human condition and the technology of the era will be remembered the longest. Much of it will be cataloged and reflected upon to a much greater degree than historic works simply because we do have a greater record than we have ever had. How much more would we know about art from the 16th to 19th century if we had as much stored and archived as we do of the 20th and 21st centuries? We are truly in a great age of information like we have never known before yet the essential human condition still continues.

 

Best,

John

[mayhem13]

Sadly, this thread has continued to be a collection of personal preference with regard to art. It ignores the simple basis of art that it is the creative expression...or equally the expressive creation...of the artist. It is not defined by the number of people who appreciate it nor is it defined by how long it lasts in the collective memories of civilization. Such definitions, while comforting to those who like to create categories of "in" and "out" that bolster their own preferences (as if that were needed), break down the second you think it through logically.

 

For example, let's assume we start with a cello player playing a work of Beethoven in NYC before an audience in a wonderful music hall. Very few would say that is not art. But what makes it art? Is it the work being played (i.e. Beethoven)? Is it the place it is played (i.e. a music hall)? Is the audience it is play in front of (i.e. music lovers who think it is art)? If we start substituting out parts, it becomes hard to say it has to be anything but the act of creative expression/expressive creation. The same work being played alone with no audience or music hall would still be art, so it isn't the location or audience that makes it art. If it were a unique work written by the cellist it would still be art even if not appreciated by the contemporary audience (yes, there are enough examples of the artist not being appreciated until after they die that it is a cliche and needs no proof), so it isn't that it is a famous work that makes it art. In fact, the cello performance does not require recording but can exist only in that one moment in time/space and it is still art, so it need not be passed on for generations for it to be art. The entirety of what makes it art is that the artist is creating expression/expressing creation.

 

This isn't a decline of any kind. In fact, the "great" works of recorded art combine universal human experience with an expression of the current time and technology. Cave paintings have stood the test of time, are still in art history books and studied, and were creative expression/expressive creations of the human experience and used the technology of the time. It makes perfect sense that rock/blues/jazz will be remembered for thousands of years simply because they reflect an age of mankind turning from the industrial era to the information era. Those works that reflect universal/timely human condition and the technology of the era will be remembered the longest. Much of it will be cataloged and reflected upon to a much greater degree than historic works simply because we do have a greater record than we have ever had. How much more would we know about art from the 16th to 19th century if we had as much stored and archived as we do of the 20th and 21st centuries? We are truly in a great age of information like we have never known before yet the essential human condition still continues.

 

Best,

John

 

I knew there was a reason I liked you John.....great post! Personal expression sums it up.

[mayhem13]

Rap is to music what graffiti is to art....disposable at best and vandalism always

 

Basquiat's career and legacy clearly differ with your perspective.

 

I'm sorry.....I shouldn't be responding to this and making a mess of this thread. Please excuse my liberal ass!

[Allan F]

Sadly, this thread has continued to be a collection of personal preference with regard to art. It ignores the simple basis of art that it is the creative expression...or equally the expressive creation...of the artist. It is not defined by the number of people who appreciate it nor is it defined by how long it lasts in the collective memories of civilization. Such definitions, while comforting to those who like to create categories of "in" and "out" that bolster their own preferences (as if that were needed), break down the second you think it through logically.

 

+1

[realhifi]

In case you haven't noticed, the whole world is devolving - actually, going to hell in a hand basket is more like it. And it's only going to get worse.

 

Before you know it there will be manical rulers trying to take over the whole world by invading countries and forming concentration camps to eleminate whole races.

 

Oh, that's right, that already happened. Back in those good old days.

[Audio_ELF]

Rap is to music what graffiti is to art....disposable at best and vandalism always

Tell that to Cheltenham... BBC News - Cheltenham Banksy 'Spy Booth' artwork defaced

[mav52]

Before you know it there will be manical rulers trying to take over the whole world by invading countries and forming concentration camps to eleminate whole races.

 

Oh, that's right, that already happened. Back in those good old days.

 

Oh don't worry the Aliens from other worlds will handle the elimination of this race once they find a turntable to listen to the songs on the golden record which is attached to Voyager.

 

Bach, Brandenburg Concerto No. 2 in F. First Movement, Munich Bach Orchestra, Karl Richter, conductor. 4:40

»

 

Java, court gamelan, "Kinds of Flowers," recorded by Robert Brown. 4:43

»

 

Senegal, percussion, recorded by Charles Duvelle. 2:08

»

 

Zaire, Pygmy girls' initiation song, recorded by Colin Turnbull. 0:56

»

 

Australia, Aborigine songs, "Morning Star" and "Devil Bird," recorded by Sandra LeBrun Holmes. 1:26

»

 

Mexico, "El Cascabel," performed by Lorenzo Barcelata and the Mariachi México. 3:14

»

 

"Johnny B. Goode," written and performed by Chuck Berry. 2:38

»

 

New Guinea, men's house song, recorded by Robert MacLennan. 1:20

»

 

Japan, shakuhachi, "Tsuru No Sugomori" ("Crane's Nest,") performed by Goro Yamaguchi. 4:51

»

 

Bach, "Gavotte en rondeaux" from the Partita No. 3 in E major for Violin, performed by Arthur Grumiaux. 2:55

»

 

Mozart, The Magic Flute, Queen of the Night aria, no. 14. Edda Moser, soprano. Bavarian State Opera, Munich, Wolfgang Sawallisch, conductor. 2:55

»

 

Georgian S.S.R., chorus, "Tchakrulo," collected by Radio Moscow. 2:18

»

 

Peru, panpipes and drum, collected by Casa de la Cultura, Lima. 0:52

»

 

"Melancholy Blues," performed by Louis Armstrong and his Hot Seven. 3:05

»

 

Azerbaijan S.S.R., bagpipes, recorded by Radio Moscow. 2:30

»

 

Stravinsky, Rite of Spring, Sacrificial Dance, Columbia Symphony Orchestra, Igor Stravinsky, conductor. 4:35

»

 

Bach, The Well-Tempered Clavier, Book 2, Prelude and Fugue in C, No.1. Glenn Gould, piano. 4:48

»

 

Beethoven, Fifth Symphony, First Movement, the Philharmonia Orchestra, Otto Klemperer, conductor. 7:20

»

 

Bulgaria, "Izlel je Delyo Hagdutin," sung by Valya Balkanska. 4:59

»

 

Navajo Indians, Night Chant, recorded by Willard Rhodes. 0:57

»

 

Holborne, Paueans, Galliards, Almains and Other Short Aeirs, "The Fairie Round," performed by David Munrow and the Early Music Consort of London. 1:17

»

 

Solomon Islands, panpipes, collected by the Solomon Islands Broadcasting Service. 1:12

»

 

Peru, wedding song, recorded by John Cohen. 0:38

»

 

China, ch'in, "Flowing Streams," performed by Kuan P'ing-hu. 7:37

»

 

India, raga, "Jaat Kahan Ho," sung by Surshri Kesar Bai Kerkar. 3:30

»

 

"Dark Was the Night," written and performed by Blind Willie Johnson. 3:15

»

 

Beethoven, String Quartet No. 13 in B flat, Opus 130, Cavatina, performed by Budapest String Quartet.

[realhifi]

Oh don't worry the Aliens from other worlds will handle the elimination of this race once they find a turntable to listen to the songs on the golden record which is attached to Voyager.

 

Bach, Brandenburg Concerto No. 2 in F. First Movement, Munich Bach Orchestra, Karl Richter, conductor. 4:40

»

 

Java, court gamelan, "Kinds of Flowers," recorded by Robert Brown. 4:43

»

 

Senegal, percussion, recorded by Charles Duvelle. 2:08

»

 

Zaire, Pygmy girls' initiation song, recorded by Colin Turnbull. 0:56

»

 

Australia, Aborigine songs, "Morning Star" and "Devil Bird," recorded by Sandra LeBrun Holmes. 1:26

»

 

Mexico, "El Cascabel," performed by Lorenzo Barcelata and the Mariachi México. 3:14

»

 

"Johnny B. Goode," written and performed by Chuck Berry. 2:38

»

 

New Guinea, men's house song, recorded by Robert MacLennan. 1:20

»

 

Japan, shakuhachi, "Tsuru No Sugomori" ("Crane's Nest,") performed by Goro Yamaguchi. 4:51

»

 

Bach, "Gavotte en rondeaux" from the Partita No. 3 in E major for Violin, performed by Arthur Grumiaux. 2:55

»

 

Mozart, The Magic Flute, Queen of the Night aria, no. 14. Edda Moser, soprano. Bavarian State Opera, Munich, Wolfgang Sawallisch, conductor. 2:55

»

 

Georgian S.S.R., chorus, "Tchakrulo," collected by Radio Moscow. 2:18

»

 

Peru, panpipes and drum, collected by Casa de la Cultura, Lima. 0:52

»

 

"Melancholy Blues," performed by Louis Armstrong and his Hot Seven. 3:05

»

 

Azerbaijan S.S.R., bagpipes, recorded by Radio Moscow. 2:30

»

 

Stravinsky, Rite of Spring, Sacrificial Dance, Columbia Symphony Orchestra, Igor Stravinsky, conductor. 4:35

»

 

Bach, The Well-Tempered Clavier, Book 2, Prelude and Fugue in C, No.1. Glenn Gould, piano. 4:48

»

 

Beethoven, Fifth Symphony, First Movement, the Philharmonia Orchestra, Otto Klemperer, conductor. 7:20

»

 

Bulgaria, "Izlel je Delyo Hagdutin," sung by Valya Balkanska. 4:59

»

 

Navajo Indians, Night Chant, recorded by Willard Rhodes. 0:57

»

 

Holborne, Paueans, Galliards, Almains and Other Short Aeirs, "The Fairie Round," performed by David Munrow and the Early Music Consort of London. 1:17

»

 

Solomon Islands, panpipes, collected by the Solomon Islands Broadcasting Service. 1:12

»

 

Peru, wedding song, recorded by John Cohen. 0:38

»

 

China, ch'in, "Flowing Streams," performed by Kuan P'ing-hu. 7:37

»

 

India, raga, "Jaat Kahan Ho," sung by Surshri Kesar Bai Kerkar. 3:30

»

 

"Dark Was the Night," written and performed by Blind Willie Johnson. 3:15

»

 

Beethoven, String Quartet No. 13 in B flat, Opus 130, Cavatina, performed by Budapest String Quartet.

 

They hear those bagpipes and we're finished.

[gmgraves]

Sadly, this thread has continued to be a collection of personal preference with regard to art. It ignores the simple basis of art that it is the creative expression...or equally the expressive creation...of the artist.

John

 

 

No, it hasn't. It's not at all about personal preferences from my point of view. It's about the kind and quality of art that lasts past its era of popularity. I say that most pop music won't pass that test. It doesn't matter whether I like it or not. I don't particularly like baroque music, but baroque has passed the test of time and will likely be with us forever. So obviously what I like and don't like has no bearing on the outcome, I'm merely speculating and using the past history of 20th Century popular music as a sort of bellwether to what is likely to live beyond the lifespan of those people who made the music popular.

 

And as for what is art and what isn't, it's in the mind of the beholder, isn't it? And there is good art and there is mediocre art, and there is bad art. I might paint a simply horrible picture that's amateurish, poorly executed and utterly without any redeeming feature (likely ), but because someone painted it, it IS art, but it's not good art or art that is worth anything financially, socially or aesthetically. So I don't need anybody to define art for me and most popular music - from any era - falls in that category as well.

[gmgraves]

They hear those bagpipes and we're finished.

 

 

And if they hear Slim Whitman sing "Indian Love Call" THEY'LL be finished.

[gmgraves]

Oh don't worry the Aliens from other worlds will handle the elimination of this race once they find a turntable to listen to the songs on the golden record which is attached to Voyager.

 

Luckily, we don't have anything to worry about wrt space aliens. They are so far away that they most likely couldn't get here in a thousand years - even at near the speed of light.

[James1776]

John, your comments on art, while interesting, still fail to note that much of what was considered art is now considered crap. Where it comes to art I fall back on another wiser than I on another related issue...

 

"hard-core pornography" was hard to define, but that "I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that." - Justice Potter Stewart...

 

I know 'art when I see it, and music...and Rap is neither and will be as forgotten as great Roman musicals or great Mayan athletes.

[gmgraves]

Before you know it there will be manical rulers trying to take over the whole world by invading countries and forming concentration camps to eleminate whole races.

 

Oh, that's right, that already happened. Back in those good old days.

 

 

You ain't seen nothin' yet!

[realhifi]

You ain't seen nothin' yet!

 

Yeah, those little bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki will look like firecrackers won't they?

 

 

In no way was this meant as lessening or downplaying the horrific devastation that happened in those cities.

[sandyk]

Yeah, those little bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki will look like firecrackers won't they?

 

From News.com.au

 

 

Aug 06, 2014 9:01AM

 

 

TENS of thousands are gathering for peace ceremonies in Hiroshima to mark the 69th anniversary of the US atomic bombing of the city, as anti-nuclear sentiment runs high in Japan.

 

Ageing survivors, relatives, government officials and foreign delegates, including US Ambassador to Japan Caroline Kennedy, will observe a moment of silence at 8:15am local time (0915 AEST) on Wednesday, when the detonation turned the western Japanese city into an inferno.

[realhifi]

From News.com.au

 

 

Aug 06, 2014 9:01AM

 

 

TENS of thousands are gathering for peace ceremonies in Hiroshima to mark the 69th anniversary of the US atomic bombing of the city, as anti-nuclear sentiment runs high in Japan.

 

Ageing survivors, relatives, government officials and foreign delegates, including US Ambassador to Japan Caroline Kennedy, will observe a moment of silence at 8:15am local time (0915 AEST) on Wednesday, when the detonation turned the western Japanese city into an inferno.

 

Exactly. As we should all remember.

[DreamOperator]

Post

Off topic

Never

On topic

 

Am I rite?

[sandyk]

Post

Off topic

Never

On topic

 

Am I rite?

 

This thread is simply marking time until Pono is finally in the hands of those who have ordered them already, and the owner reports start to become available.

[InfernoSTi]

No, it hasn't. It's not at all about personal preferences from my point of view. It's about the kind and quality of art that lasts past its era of popularity. I say that most pop music won't pass that test. It doesn't matter whether I like it or not. I don't particularly like baroque music, but baroque has passed the test of time and will likely be with us forever. So obviously what I like and don't like has no bearing on the outcome, I'm merely speculating and using the past history of 20th Century popular music as a sort of bellwether to what is likely to live beyond the lifespan of those people who made the music popular.

 

And as for what is art and what isn't, it's in the mind of the beholder, isn't it? And there is good art and there is mediocre art, and there is bad art. I might paint a simply horrible picture that's amateurish, poorly executed and utterly without any redeeming feature (likely ), but because someone painted it, it IS art, but it's not good art or art that is worth anything financially, socially or aesthetically. So I don't need anybody to define art for me and most popular music - from any era - falls in that category as well.

 

George,

 

Thanks for the response. In response, I have two comments.

 

First, does art have to pass the test of time to be great art? Did you consider that something could be great art and not even be recorded whatsoever and it would still be great art?

 

For me, if something can't even be passed on an hour later let alone a decade or a century later, it can still be great art, such as an improvisational violinist that plays for only herself...that can be great art simply by the expressive creation.

 

So my position is the "greatness" of a work of art is not related to if later generations appreciate it or not. In fact, it is not related to if the current generation appreciates it or if it is even heard by anyone else other than the artist. It is inherent in the act of creative expression/expressive creation. But others may feel great art can only exist if it is both appreciated and passed on for generations. Perhaps for them the "greatness" is simply its degree of famousness. Kind of like Top 40 hits are considered better if they are more popular. I disagree. I don't feel "popularity" or how "famous" a work is defines its greatness.

 

Second, I believe that words like "good" and "bad" have no place with art. Instead, art can create emotion, awe (in technique or conception or expression), reaction (strong or weak, positive or negative), etc.

 

For me, these words (emotion, awe, reaction) are not "good or bad" but the outcome of sharing the human condition with someone who has expressed these things in a manner that evokes these feelings.

 

Best,

John

[InfernoSTi]

John, your comments on art, while interesting, still fail to note that much of what was considered art is now considered crap. Where it comes to art I fall back on another wiser than I on another related issue...

 

"hard-core pornography" was hard to define, but that "I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that." - Justice Potter Stewart...

 

I know 'art when I see it, and music...and Rap is neither and will be as forgotten as great Roman musicals or great Mayan athletes.

 

Sorry, but I can't substitute a legal definition of pornography for art. I believe sometimes the greatest art of all is the kind you don't know when you see it...

 

Best,

John

[Allan F]

Second, I believe that words like "good" and "bad" have no place with art. Instead, art can create emotion, awe (in technique or conception or expression), reaction (strong or weak, positive or negative), etc.

 

I'm afraid I'm not totally with you on the above, John. To the extent that art also involves a craft or skill, e.g. painting or playing a musical instrument, there can be "bad" art if indeed it qualifies as art at all.