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You will be dead like the rest of us, unless you will be in cryo freeze for the next 200 years LOL

 

Of course I will. Probably much sooner than you, but do you not understand what a smiley-face means?

 

 

And yes the Beatles will be remembered along with Chuck Berry - Johnny B Goode and Pygmy girls' initiation song and the Navajo Indians Night Chant and yes Bach - Brandenburg Concerto No. 2 in F among others.

 

Do you understand the difference between entertainment and art? The Beatles, Chuck Berry et al are entertainment, and Bach's Brandenburg Concerto #2 if F is art. Art survives because it crosses all barriers of age, social caste, economics, etc. Pop culture is a purely commercial product created and packaged to appeal whatever the generation it's intended for are "into". When that generation passes, the reason for their pop entertainment passes with them. Sure there are exceptions to that, but they are few and far between, because, with most pop fare, applying the term "mediocre" would be a compliment. I'm sure that history will vindicate me on this.

 

Don't misunderstand me here, I'm not criticizing anyone for liking pop culture entertainment. I watch contemporary TV, read the novels of Clive Cussler, John Grisham and Stewart Woods, etc., and listen to modern Jazz, but what I don't do is attach any pretensions about this stuff being "art" or lasting through the ages to any of it. I don't even put most contemporary classical music in that category. I personally feel that modern composer John Adams, who seems to be a rage now, is a 21st century Antonio Salieri. His music is derivative; plagiaristic, even, and it won't survive the test of time because it's mediocre beyond belief.

George

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Of course I will. Probably much sooner than you, but do you not understand what a smiley-face means?

 

 

 

 

Do you understand the difference between entertainment and art? The Beatles, Chuck Berry et al are entertainment, and Bach's Brandenburg Concerto #2 if F is art. Art survives because it crosses all barriers of age, social caste, economics, etc. Pop culture is a purely commercial product created and packaged to appeal whatever the generation it's intended for are "into". When that generation passes, the reason for their pop entertainment passes with them. Sure there are exceptions to that, but they are few and far between, because, with most pop fare, applying the term "mediocre" would be a compliment. I'm sure that history will vindicate me on this.

 

Don't misunderstand me here, I'm not criticizing anyone for liking pop culture entertainment. I watch contemporary TV, read the novels of Clive Cussler, John Grisham and Stewart Woods, etc., and listen to modern Jazz, but what I don't do is attach any pretensions about this stuff being "art" or lasting through the ages to any of it. I don't even put most contemporary classical music in that category. I personally feel that modern composer John Adams, who seems to be a rage now, is a 21st century Antonio Salieri. His music is derivative; plagiaristic, even, and it won't survive the test of time because it's mediocre beyond belief.

 

I think "art" can only be judged from a distance. J.S. Bach did not right the Brandenburg concertos as "art" - he wrote them to fulfill a commission to provide entertainment at parties. Similarly, his church music was not written for "art", it was written to be performed each Sunday in his church. He was not an "artist", he was a craftsman.

 

As you likely know, J.S. Bach was largely forgotten after he died, with only sporadic interest from time to time. It wasn't until the 20th century he was "revived" and venerated.

 

I have no way of knowing which of the current music makers will be venerated 200 years from now, but I suspect neither the Beatles nor the Rolling Stones will be forgotten. Not that either of them are (necessarily) my cup of tea - I tend to favor 16th-19th century "Classical" and bop-style Jazz, though 60s-70s rock / folk is also somewhat attractive - but I recognize craftsmanship when I see it.

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category. I personally feel that modern composer John Adams, who seems to be a rage now, is a 21st century Antonio Salieri. His music is derivative; plagiaristic, even, and it won't survive the test of time because it's mediocre beyond belief.

 

Everyone is a critic

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There are many kinds of art ranging from fine art to pop art and all kinds of other descriptors (like post-modern art, deconstructionist art, contemporary art, found object art, abstract art, traditional art, naive art, folk art, etc). To say that visual art has these categories is the same as to say musical art has these categories.

 

Then there are the artists who create art. If they play a musical instrument, they are creating art, even if it is 200 year old music they didn't write themselves. I hold no prejudice for a talented musician to play someone else's music rather than their own (this is a funny twist on the complaint about pop music cover bands not being artists but classical musicians playing someone else's music are considered artists...that is just bias for traditional music rather than appreciating that the act of playing music is the art itself).

 

Creation is another common way of describing the artistic process, rather than reproduction. So where do we fall with photography? I say it is creation but others say it is reproduction...I suppose it comes down to whether it is done by the artist or reproduced by others as a copy. But then what do we say of our recordings? They are reproductions yet they are art.

 

Hmmm...perhaps the truth is the proper definition of art is to first discard all definitions of art...

 

Best,

John

Positive emotions enhance our musical experiences.

 

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I think "art" can only be judged from a distance. J.S. Bach did not right the Brandenburg concertos as "art" - he wrote them to fulfill a commission to provide entertainment at parties. Similarly, his church music was not written for "art", it was written to be performed each Sunday in his church. He was not an "artist", he was a craftsman.

 

As you likely know, J.S. Bach was largely forgotten after he died, with only sporadic interest from time to time. It wasn't until the 20th century he was "revived" and venerated.

 

I have no way of knowing which of the current music makers will be venerated 200 years from now, but I suspect neither the Beatles nor the Rolling Stones will be forgotten. Not that either of them are (necessarily) my cup of tea - I tend to favor 16th-19th century "Classical" and bop-style Jazz, though 60s-70s rock / folk is also somewhat attractive - but I recognize craftsmanship when I see it.

 

 

You know, humans, both collectively and individually are subject to being distracted by fads, fashion, and currents and eddies of history. But that same history has shown us that posterity is not so easily distracted and usually "chooses" the correct human accomplishments to lavish ultimate timeless fame upon. DaVinci's 'Mona Lisa' Michaelangelo's Sistine Chapel Ceiling, Shakespeare's plays, Beethoven's Symphonies, The works of Fennimore Cooper, Melville, Dickens, Shaw, etc., All of these great milestones in the journey of Western Civilization, tell us where we've been and as a culture we should revere them. I simply refuse to believe that 20th and 21st century popular music, produced so cynically, and commercially, and being totally devoid of any content any thinking human being would want as an example of his time on this earth, could possibly, ultimately be canonized for the ages. Many of us might love it, might consider it important, but I cannot believe that future generations will see it as anything other than an aberration. I could be wrong, but I certainly hope I'm not. We live in the "Golden Age of Garbage" and it will be best forgotten by the future like the bell-bottom trousers and disco of the 1970's.

George

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Music is part of the fine arts. Kids playing in garage band are making art. Musicians are also referred as artists. Just wanted to clear that up. Now sure there are many levels but still art in my book.

 

 

Some musicians are artists, but I prefer to call pop musicians "performers".

George

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You know, humans, both collectively and individually are subject to being distracted by fads, fashion, and currents and eddies of history. But that same history has shown us that posterity is not so easily distracted and usually "chooses" the correct human accomplishments to lavish ultimate timeless fame upon. DaVinci's 'Mona Lisa' Michaelangelo's Sistine Chapel Ceiling, Shakespeare's plays, Beethoven's Symphonies, The works of Fennimore Cooper, Melville, Dickens, Shaw, etc., All of these great milestones in the journey of Western Civilization, tell us where we've been and as a culture we should revere them. I simply refuse to believe that 20th and 21st century popular music, produced so cynically, and commercially, and being totally devoid of any content any thinking human being would want as an example of his time on this earth, could possibly, ultimately be canonized for the ages. Many of us might love it, might consider it important, but I cannot believe that future generations will see it as anything other than an aberration. I could be wrong, but I certainly hope I'm not. We live in the "Golden Age of Garbage" and it will be best forgotten by the future like the bell-bottom trousers and disco of the 1970's.

 

Well, I strongly disagree. There is a lot of music being made today which is just as creative and relevant today as Bach (for example) was in his day.

 

Just out of curiosity, are you saying out of the entire recorded history of Western music (let's just limit ourselves to 16th - 21st century), only the 20th century will not be remembered at all? i.e., it will simply be a blank "nothing of note happened here" in music history books published 200 years from now? If not, what do *you* think will be included?

John Walker - IT Executive

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Well, I strongly disagree. There is a lot of music being made today which is just as creative and relevant today as Bach (for example) was in his day.

 

Just out of curiosity, are you saying out of the entire recorded history of Western music (let's just limit ourselves to 16th - 21st century), only the 20th century will not be remembered at all? i.e., it will simply be a blank "nothing of note happened here" in music history books published 200 years from now? If not, what do *you* think will be included?

 

Reich will be remembered, Glass will be remembered, Ades will be remembered, Stockhausen will be remembered, Britten will be remembered, Riley will be remembered, Shostakovich will be remembered, Messiaen will be remembered, Cage will be remembered. Shall I continue?

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Well, I strongly disagree. There is a lot of music being made today which is just as creative and relevant today as Bach (for example) was in his day.

 

That might well be true, but I'm not talking about music in general, I'm talking specifically about popular music; i.e. rock and rap and hip-hop and other related genres. I'm sure that there are modern classical composers and jazz artists whose current work will be remembered for many decades to come. The likes of Snoop Dogg and Eminem? Probably not so much.

 

Just out of curiosity, are you saying out of the entire recorded history of Western music (let's just limit ourselves to 16th - 21st century), only the 20th century will not be remembered at all? i.e., it will simply be a blank "nothing of note happened here" in music history books published 200 years from now? If not, what do *you* think will be included?

 

Of course i'm not saying that. I'm not even saying that all popular music from the 20th century will be forgotten. Certainly much of the music from "the American Songbook" will be remembered for centuries and even some of the performers will be. Certainly the music of Gershwin, Cole Porter, Rogers and Hart, Nacio Herb Brown, etc. will probably survive the test of time. On the classical front, the music of such 20th century composers as Copland, Sibelius, Walton, Vaughan Williams, Ravel, Villa-Lobos and hundreds more will survive because the works of these composers has true musical worth that's already seen it firmly ensconced in the standard repertoire. Perhaps recordings by Sinatra or Glenn Miller et al will survive the centuries, but perhaps not. I doubt seriously if any Beatles, Stones, Beach Boys, Pink Floyd, Grateful Dead, or the Who or any rap or hip-hop or any disco will survive because this stuff has no real musical merit that I can see appealing to future generations. Of course, that's just my opinion, you understand, and it is colored by the fact that I personally find no musical worth in any pop music. But this is a fact: I have friends with teen-aged kids. Those kids do not value any of the above mentioned rock from the 50's, 60's, 70's 80's or 90's. This means that I'm not going too much out on a limb when I say that this music's appeal will die out with the generations to whom it was originally aimed. That's why I make the predictions that I am making.

George

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Reich will be remembered, Glass will be remembered, Ades will be remembered, Stockhausen will be remembered, Britten will be remembered, Riley will be remembered, Shostakovich will be remembered, Messiaen will be remembered, Cage will be remembered. Shall I continue?

 

 

Of course they will. Who said that they wouldn't be? And none of the composers you mentioned are late 20th century or 21st century pop "stars" either, are they? That's the music that I am saying won't survive the generations at whom it was aimed. There will be exceptions, but history has shown us that this is the way of things. How many popular songs from the 1900's, 1910's and even the 1920's have lasted even until today in the public consciousness? Very few. yet there was a thriving pop music scene in those decades and millions of phonograph records were recorded and sold and untold reams of sheet music. Yet it is forgotten already because it doesn't have anything to say to us now. Today's pop music won't have anything to say to listeners a hundred years from now either. But Benjamin Britten, Dimitri Shostakovich and Stockhausen will, I'd bet money on that. That's my entire argument in a nutshell.

George

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That might well be true, but I'm not talking about music in general, I'm talking specifically about popular music; i.e. rock and rap and hip-hop and other related genres. I'm sure that there are modern classical composers and jazz artists whose current work will be remembered for many decades to come. The likes of Snoop Dogg and Eminem? Probably not so much.

 

 

 

Of course i'm not saying that. I'm not even saying that all popular music from the 20th century will be forgotten. Certainly much of the music from "the American Songbook" will be remembered for centuries and even some of the performers will be. Certainly the music of Gershwin, Cole Porter, Rogers and Hart, Nacio Herb Brown, etc. will probably survive the test of time. On the classical front, the music of such 20th century composers as Copland, Sibelius, Walton, Vaughan Williams, Ravel, Villa-Lobos and hundreds more will survive because the works of these composers has true musical worth that's already seen it firmly ensconced in the standard repertoire. Perhaps recordings by Sinatra or Glenn Miller et al will survive the centuries, but perhaps not. I doubt seriously if any Beatles, Stones, Beach Boys, Pink Floyd, Grateful Dead, or the Who or any rap or hip-hop or any disco will survive because this stuff has no real musical merit that I can see appealing to future generations. Of course, that's just my opinion, you understand, and it is colored by the fact that I personally find no musical worth in any pop music. But this is a fact: I have friends with teen-aged kids. Those kids do not value any of the above mentioned rock from the 50's, 60's, 70's 80's or 90's. This means that I'm not going too much out on a limb when I say that this music's appeal will die out with the generations to whom it was originally aimed. That's why I make the predictions that I am making.

 

Well, let's be clear: they also don't value the "American Songbook" content you've referenced, either! Neither do they listen to jazz or classical.

 

You prefer classical, jazz, and "American songbook" - fair enough, so do I. But you're sounding an awful lot like the stereotypical old man shaking his hand at the local kids while yelling "get off my lawn!" LOL

 

I just think it will be a while before we know what will be considered worthy of the appellation "art", and I'm not ready to make that call re: rock, folk, rap, hip-hop, etc., just yet . . .

 

. . . though I'm pretty sure rap will not be on the list ;)

John Walker - IT Executive

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Of course I will. Probably much sooner than you, but do you not understand what a smiley-face means?

 

 

 

 

Do you understand the difference between entertainment and art? The Beatles, Chuck Berry et al are entertainment, and Bach's Brandenburg Concerto #2 if F is art. Art survives because it crosses all barriers of age, social caste, economics, etc. Pop culture is a purely commercial product created and packaged to appeal whatever the generation it's intended for are "into". When that generation passes, the reason for their pop entertainment passes with them. Sure there are exceptions to that, but they are few and far between, because, with most pop fare, applying the term "mediocre" would be a compliment. I'm sure that history will vindicate me on this.

 

Don't misunderstand me here, I'm not criticizing anyone for liking pop culture entertainment. I watch contemporary TV, read the novels of Clive Cussler, John Grisham and Stewart Woods, etc., and listen to modern Jazz, but what I don't do is attach any pretensions about this stuff being "art" or lasting through the ages to any of it. I don't even put most contemporary classical music in that category. I personally feel that modern composer John Adams, who seems to be a rage now, is a 21st century Antonio Salieri. His music is derivative; plagiaristic, even, and it won't survive the test of time because it's mediocre beyond belief.

Yes yep you did add the smiley

 

Any way art or entertainment is always in the eye or ear of the beholder

The Truth Is Out There

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The works of Fennimore Cooper, Melville, Dickens, Shaw, etc., All of these great milestones in the journey of Western Civilization...

 

Um, have you actually read much Fenimore Cooper? Some of the characters are memorable, and plot-wise, there's a fair amount happening, but the actual writing is about at the level of Bulwer-Lytton, so pretty much crap. Personally, I'd rather read Sax Rohmer.

 

I'm with jhwalker on this — it takes quite a while to determine what's great art and what isn't, and even then, that evaluation is by no means static. Poor Melville, for example, couldn't get arrested after Moby-Dick was published and didn't join the pantheon of Great Artists until he was many years dead. On the other side of the coin, do you hear a lot of folks talking about what a great painter Fragonard was? Well, there was a time ....

 

So what you think is great (Stockhausen?) or what I think is great (Jutta Hipp?) hardly matters. Let's all consume the art we get the most out of and leave the rest to posterity, which will inevitably draw its own conclusions.

 

--David

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I hate to say this, but you sound like an angry old man looking at this from a very narrow perspective- yours...

 

For starters, was it not you that said in this thread that only 1% of people listen to classical music. Is that truly standing the test of time or speaking to the masses? Was Bach herald as "fresh", or panned by the powers that be of the era.

 

Popular music from the 1900-1910 that didn't survive: Was it ever written or recorded? Could it be that what we think of as classical music was simply that which was written and played often because some aristocrat or church payed for it? Hildegard Von Bingen anyone?

 

Folk songs have and will withstand the test of time. They ARE the voices of the people, and remain so. What is deemed "classical" was done so by an academic, not the people. Let's be real here, the people support pop music by paying for it. Organizations support classical by hiring orchestras.

 

No offense intended toward classics.

 

Iko, iko all day...

 

Of course they will. Who said that they wouldn't be? And none of the composers you mentioned are late 20th century or 21st century pop "stars" either, are they? That's the music that I am saying won't survive the generations at whom it was aimed. There will be exceptions, but history has shown us that this is the way of things. How many popular songs from the 1900's, 1910's and even the 1920's have lasted even until today in the public consciousness? Very few. yet there was a thriving pop music scene in those decades and millions of phonograph records were recorded and sold and untold reams of sheet music. Yet it is forgotten already because it doesn't have anything to say to us now. Today's pop music won't have anything to say to listeners a hundred years from now either. But Benjamin Britten, Dimitri Shostakovich and Stockhausen will, I'd bet money on that. That's my entire argument in a nutshell.

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A couple of points on what is a rather depressing thread...

 

"Now, of course, the percentage of the population who listens to classical music has fallen from about 20% in the 1940's to far less than 1% today, while pop and rock is all that the great majority of Westerners ever listen to or even get to hear."

 

 

Love to know the source of these figures for listening to classical music vs pop and rock. Classical music follows us everywhere, TV & Cinema are habitual & regular users, TV Adverts use it all the time, it appears in Anthems (Such as the rather strange & pompous EU National Anthem), in fact it is everywhere. Given that I find 1% impossible to believe.

 

 

As for Pono's relevance, if they deliver a decent music player that will be a great start. Like or not it has created a very high profile debate about the quality of downloads. Even my non audiophile friends have been talking about it - I would say it has already been a success and highly relevant.

 

Personally I feel we may be reaching the tipping point for MP3 style music. Put most of it anywhere near a half decent system and you hear it's limitations, the excitement of the flexibility of instant digital music is now a given so the next step for product development will be better quality..

 

Finally a quick word about the next generation. I am optimistic about them, despite the fact we have left them the most god almighty polluted debt ridden shambles of a world, if they can sort that I don't care what they listen too, they will have served humankind and the planet much better than ever we did even if the never listen to a single note of classical music.

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But this is a fact: I have friends with teen-aged kids. Those kids do not value any of the above mentioned rock from the 50's, 60's, 70's 80's or 90's. This means that I'm not going too much out on a limb when I say that this music's appeal will die out with the generations to whom it was originally aimed. That's why I make the predictions that I am making.

 

The fact that your friends' kids have no musical points of reference or taste has no bearing on what contemporary music will be remembered as important in the future. Robert Johnson, and many of his peers, were obscure blues artists in the early part of the 20th century. However, his influence today on blues, rock, soul, and even jazz is incalculable, whether or not these genres interest you personally.

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Well, let's be clear: they also don't value the "American Songbook" content you've referenced, either! Neither do they listen to jazz or classical.

 

Not the point. These genres have already passed the test of time. Their longevity is not in question.

 

You prefer classical, jazz, and "American songbook" - fair enough, so do I. But you're sounding an awful lot like the stereotypical old man shaking his hand at the local kids while yelling "get off my lawn!" LOL

 

Actually, I'm not all that interested in the "American Songbook" but those songs have already outlived the generation for which they were written. That they won't be forgotten is a fait accompli and doesn't need my interest (or yours) to guarantee that those songs will be remembered through the ages. And as for your last statement, above, I don't care what "kids" listen to. As I alluded to earlier, since WWII, it seems that each generation strives to be different from the last. Let them have that. The only thing about it that I find disturbing is that by focusing exclusively on "their music" they turn their backs on the their own cultures and remain ignorant about them. It's not their fault either. When school systems decided to cut music and art appreciation classes from the curriculum, they condemned generations of students to a life of cultural ignorance.

 

I just think it will be a while before we know what will be considered worthy of the appellation "art", and I'm not ready to make that call re: rock, folk, rap, hip-hop, etc., just yet . . .

 

. . . though I'm pretty sure rap will not be on the list ;)

 

I am ready. I think it's pretty clear what history will find worthwhile and what history will discard, and you are right about rap and hip-hop. But I'm right about rock. It seems to me that the more generation specific a musical-genre is, the quicker it is relegated to the dust bin. Also, the more performer-specific a musical type is, the quicker it become irrelevant. As an example, anybody can take a song like Cole Porter's "Anything Goes" and make a successful performance from it. But can you see anybody other than the 'Stones singing "(I can't get no) Satisfaction"? I can't.

George

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Um, have you actually read much Fenimore Cooper? Some of the characters are memorable, and plot-wise, there's a fair amount happening, but the actual writing is about at the level of Bulwer-Lytton, so pretty much crap. Personally, I'd rather read Sax Rohmer.

 

Not important. I didn't put Fenimore Cooper on the list of great American literature. That was done well before my time.

 

I'm with jhwalker on this — it takes quite a while to determine what's great art and what isn't, and even then, that evaluation is by no means static. Poor Melville, for example, couldn't get arrested after Moby-Dick was published and didn't join the pantheon of Great Artists until he was many years dead. On the other side of the coin, do you hear a lot of folks talking about what a great painter Fragonard was? Well, there was a time ....

 

So what you think is great (Stockhausen?) or what I think is great (Jutta Hipp?) hardly matters. Let's all consume the art we get the most out of and leave the rest to posterity, which will inevitably draw its own conclusions.

 

--David

 

Well, that's true. But I still think I'm right about these generational genres not outliving their generations.

George

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A couple of points on what is a rather depressing thread...

 

"Now, of course, the percentage of the population who listens to classical music has fallen from about 20% in the 1940's to far less than 1% today, while pop and rock is all that the great majority of Westerners ever listen to or even get to hear."

 

 

Love to know the source of these figures for listening to classical music vs pop and rock. Classical music follows us everywhere, TV & Cinema are habitual & regular users, TV Adverts use it all the time, it appears in Anthems (Such as the rather strange & pompous EU National Anthem), in fact it is everywhere. Given that I find 1% impossible to believe.

 

Record sales over the last 70 years.

George

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