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Pono seems totally irrelevant


j20056

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1. Most HD music is available somewhere on an online store and audiophiles know where to find it.

2. Pono can't hold much more than 100 uncompressed albums given 1.5-3gb per album

3. A high end headphone capable of diffenrentiating between Redbook and HD probably needs it's own preamp thence not really portable.

4. There are many DSD and HD PCM DACs via USB for laptops and much more storage available than a Pono player.

5. Are discerning audiophiles in 2014 going to be satisfied to know from Mr Young that "we'll give you the best there is"?

 

So, is there any rationale reason for Pono to exist? Is the world so ignorant that you need a 70y old celebrity to put his name on a weird looking gizmo for the HD format to pickup? At this point, most of my favorite music has been reissued in HD and I have ripped SACDs at will.

So I can't see the appeal of Pono. If anything, it would have been more useful for Mr a Young to convince Apple to sell uncompressed Redbook on iTunes.

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5. Are discerning audiophiles in 2014 going to be satisfied to know from Mr Young that "we'll give you the best there is"?

 

 

Well, in my opinion, the value of Pono does not reside with the aging, upper-middle class, white folks that consider themselves to be "discerning audiophiles" face it; we will be gone soon enough.

 

The value of Pono may well be in the education of the younger iPod generation that higher quality (better sounding) music is out there.

 

If Pono convinces one kid to download quality files, or even to buy a turntable a try some vinyl, then I am for it.

 

 

You can thank me later for providing a reason for Pono to exist.

In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the issues at stake ~ Sayre's Law

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1. Most HD music is available somewhere on an online store and audiophiles know where to find it.

 

The point is to make it available where non-audiophiles know where to find it.

 

2. Pono can't hold much more than 100 uncompressed albums given 1.5-3gb per album

 

It accepts removable storage media and is comparable to other players on the market.

 

3. A high end headphone capable of diffenrentiating between Redbook and HD probably needs it's own preamp thence not really portable.

 

Will withhold judgment until I have actually heard what the player can do.

 

4. There are many DSD and HD PCM DACs via USB for laptops and much more storage available than a Pono player.

 

What was that you were saying about not really portable?

 

5. Are discerning audiophiles in 2014 going to be satisfied to know from Mr Young that "we'll give you the best there is"?

 

Of course not. I'm sure there will be plenty of analysis of the files from the Pono store and Uncle Neil will be taken to task if they are not true hi-res.

 

At this point, most of my favorite music has been reissued in HD and I have ripped SACDs at will.

 

People are still making good music.

 

So I can't see the appeal of Pono.

 

Can't wait to get mine.

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Well, in my opinion, the value of Pono does not reside with the aging, upper-middle class, white folks that consider themselves to be "discerning audiophiles" face it; we will be gone soon enough.

 

The value of Pono may well be in the education of the younger iPod generation that higher quality (better sounding) music is out there.

 

If Pono convinces one kid to download quality files, or even to buy a turntable a try some vinyl, then I am for it.

 

 

You can thank me later for providing a reason for Pono to exist.

 

Unfortunately most of the discussion on the Kickstarter page is about Steely Dan and 80's new wave bands, so I have yet to see anything that makes me think Pono is on the millennials' radar screens.

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Unfortunately most of the discussion on the Kickstarter page is about Steely Dan and 80's new wave bands, so I have yet to see anything that makes me think Pono is on the millennials' radar screens.

 

 

Yes and no. I do see a lot of music discussion, not all 80's and new wave, but at least they are talking about higher rez music.

And comments/complaints about the 30 day late NY signed posters distribution.

 

We could start a thread about how the millennials are doomed, but we* all know that anyway.

 

 

*old, upper-middle class, audiophiles, ya da ya da.

In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the issues at stake ~ Sayre's Law

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You seem to have a strong opinion about things you know little about.

 

1. HD? Is it, really? Or is it redbook upsampled at $24 for an album? You decide.

 

2. Albums at 24/96 take up close to 1GB so yes, you should be able to load about "only" around a hundred albums or so from your digital library. I suppose if you were going to Mars that might not be enough.

 

3. Do your homework. The Pono player will be able to drive headphones without an additional amplifier.

 

4. The Pono is intended to be portable, your home stereo, DAC, computer and USB drive is not - or at least not so much.

 

5. If you don't like Neil Young, then don't worry about it. I'm sure he won't lose any sleep over your lack of support.

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You seem to have a strong opinion about things you know little about.

 

1. HD? Is it, really? Or is it redbook upsampled at $24 for an album? You decide.

 

2. Albums at 24/96 take up close to 1GB so yes, you should be able to load about "only" around a hundred albums or so from your digital library. I suppose if you were going to Mars that might not be enough.

 

3. Do your homework. The Pono player will be able to drive headphones without an additional amplifier.

 

4. The Pono is intended to be portable, your home stereo, DAC, computer and USB drive is not - or at least not so much.

 

5. If you don't like Neil Young, then don't worry about it. I'm sure he won't lose any sleep over your lack of support.

 

 

I think that ultimately, the Pono will fail in the marketplace. The reason is two-fold: 1) There are too many similar products with a better form factor from companies like Astell & Kern and HiFiMan with more in the wings. 2) today's smartphone/iPad generation has no frame of reference, and therefore doesn't understand what the Pono will buy them in terms of quality. Not understanding (or appreciating) the difference between their i-devices full of MP3 rock and rap and a hi-res player full of 24/96 copies of the same rock and rap, will make them extremely indifferent to an awkwardly packaged player that costs ~$500 and doesn't even contain a smartphone.

George

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We'll have wait and see how it does in the marketplace. It does have an uphill battle that is for sure and I am not sure the Neil Young and his "star power" will be able to overcome.

 

As I see it they have to offer something compelling over what is out there currently and I am not sure they have that yet. Some possible compelling mass market value offerings...

 

1) Cost - not really as you will need to buy music and the player and they aren't cheap and will likely be more expensive than other offerings.

2) Ease of use - not seeing that as Apple pretty much has that one figure out.

3) Selection - not sure they will be able to get this one. If they can get a compelling library of music that isn't easily available elsewhere this might be a possible compelling factor. Hard to see them achieving this on a large scale though.

4) Quality - okay this is possible and seems to be how they are marketing this. Problem with a quality market is that it is going to be smaller as most people just want the cheapest thing that works. Most people seem happy with the current levels of quality out there.

5) Cool factor - maybe this will become the cool hip thing to have. This is good for getting a market going but there needs to be something behind it in order to sustain.

 

I see that they are really going after a cool/quality approach which is a tough one to pull off any mass appeal. But, heh, Apple seems pretty successful with this as well although the put in a strong dose of ease of use as well.

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I think that ultimately, the Pono will fail in the marketplace. The reason is two-fold: 1) There are too many similar products with a better form factor from companies like Astell & Kern and HiFiMan with more in the wings. 2) today's smartphone/iPad generation has no frame of reference, and therefore doesn't understand what the Pono will buy them in terms of quality. Not understanding (or appreciating) the difference between their i-devices full of MP3 rock and rap and a hi-res player full of 24/96 copies of the same rock and rap, will make them extremely indifferent to an awkwardly packaged player that costs ~$500 and doesn't even contain a smartphone.

 

I have no particular axe to grind against Pono or NY, but I think this is pretty much dead on. And for the truly nerdy, one can always get an iFi Nano iDSD or a Resonessence Herus and hook it up to the iPhone or Android phone you already have, with, I dare say, comparable or better results. OTOH, maybe Pono will blow the doors off anything already in the marketplace. Only time will tell.

 

--David

Listening Room: Mac mini (Roon Core) > iMac (HQP) > exaSound PlayPoint (as NAA) > exaSound e32 > W4S STP-SE > Benchmark AHB2 > Wilson Sophia Series 2 (Details)

Office: Mac Pro >  AudioQuest DragonFly Red > JBL LSR305

Mobile: iPhone 6S > AudioQuest DragonFly Black > JH Audio JH5

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The value of Pono may well be in the education of the younger iPod generation that higher quality (better sounding) music is out there.

 

If Pono convinces one kid to download quality files, or even to buy a turntable a try some vinyl, then I am for it.

 

 

You can thank me later for providing a reason for Pono to exist.

If by younger, you mean 18-35, I don't think they care.

 

Pono was discussed on my favorite music forum and pretty much everybody laughed at it. It's not that it's bad, but it's another device to buy, to carry, and for what? They've all got Spotify on their phones and couldn't care less about music sounding better than that. These are people who are very, very passionate about music as well.

 

I was quite interested, until the iFI iDSD Nano came along. It's another device as well, but I don't have to use it and can still have my music play through the phone. Also, I care greatly about sound quality.

 

IMO, the main thing that will get people that aren't focused on good sound involved is integration into devices they already have. We've seen it before with iPods and Wolfson DACs. Maybe down the road we'll see a Galaxy S8 featuring iFI sound or something like that.

 

Of course there will be some people that like it, and I'm all for it. Anything to get the masses better sound is great by me. It's just, in general, I don't think this is it.

Hackintosh W7/OSX 3570k/16GB > Audirvana+ > Metric Halo ULN-8 > Rythmik F12 and Butler Audio TDB 2250 > Magnepan 1.7 > 13.5'x26'x7.5' room, HK/Limage setup

 

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Have we not learned anything from Beats! Lol it is not about us, is all about everybody else. If they come up with a smart marketing campaign I think it has the chance to succeed. Who would have thought just 15 years ago that regular people would be walking around with huge headphones all over the place. And if they succeed I am sure big companies will follow.

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If by younger, you mean 18-35, I don't think they care.

That's quite correct. The young seem to want quantity rather than quality. They encode their music at the lowest possible data rate in order to get more "songs" on their portable devices. They don't seem to really care how they sound as long as they're loud and go boom at 80 Hz. Yes, I'm generalizing.

George

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The End of the World as I knew it.

 

1966. I always wanted the "full length version".

 

1999. I always wanted the biggest TV.

 

2014. I always wanted the best copy of a song.

 

 

I do not want to hear crappy sounding music. I do not want to watch a movie or TV show on a goddam phone!

 

Stay off my lawn!

In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the issues at stake ~ Sayre's Law

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NOMBEDES: YES YES AND YES!I have tried to tell BM(i promised wgscott NEVER to use my acronym for BM again) that for months I don't own an iDevice and will get one only to get my MOG playlists(250+ on BM)&Qobuz to stream to my Appletv instead of just my iTunes library-we boomers may be gone in a while but we still just want near perfect sound.

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The End of the World as I knew it.

 

1966. I always wanted the "full length version".

 

1999. I always wanted the biggest TV.

 

2014. I always wanted the best copy of a song.

 

 

I do not want to hear crappy sounding music. I do not want to watch a movie or TV show on a goddam phone!

 

Stay off my lawn!

 

Thanks for channeling the grumpy old man/woman in us all. :)

Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby
Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley
Through the middle of my skull

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That's quite correct. The young seem to want quantity rather than quality. They encode their music at the lowest possible data rate in order to get more "songs" on their portable devices. They don't seem to really care how they sound as long as they're loud and go boom at 80 Hz. Yes, I'm generalizing.

 

Careful......you don't want to start sounding like your own parents.....'this generation...i tell ya, ". I'm not so sure MP3 sales reflect their desires as accurately as the figures might suggest. A resurgence in obsolete, bulky vinyl speaks to SQ to a degree.

 

Again, I don't see success in the PONO business model as it stands but that's just my own 2 cents. I DO see prescription streaming taking over big time though. I'd be fine with never purchasing a piece of physical media again as long as the quality is there.

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Careful......you don't want to start sounding like your own parents.....'this generation...i tell ya, ". I'm not so sure MP3 sales reflect their desires as accurately as the figures might suggest. A resurgence in obsolete, bulky vinyl speaks to SQ to a degree.

 

Again, I don't see success in the PONO business model as it stands but that's just my own 2 cents. I DO see prescription streaming taking over big time though. I'd be fine with never purchasing a piece of physical media again as long as the quality is there.

 

 

Actually, I'm not criticizing the young with my above statements, I'm just relating my observations. However, I do have to wonder if our parents and grandparents saw us in the same light as many of us see see today's young? Their styles and tastes do seem very radical to me. What I've noticed over the years is that each successive generation of kids seem to be mainly interested in being different from the last generation. It doesn't seem to be a question of being different-better, just different. The result seems to be different worse. Today's pop music is not better than the pop of the 1960's or 70's but seems to be much worse. I dunno, maybe I'm wrong, but I find absolutely no common ground with the tastes and styles of today's youth culture. Perhaps it's supposed to be that way, but I can't help but weep for the future on a lot of levels.

George

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Perhaps it's supposed to be that way, but I can't help but weep for the future on a lot of levels.

 

Neither can I, but we are far from blameless. We are leaving this world in far worse shape than when we came into it.

At least we haven't yet caused a Nuclear Holocaust like appeared likely at one stage.

That fictional TV series with Jessica Alba, where there were street oxygen stations, and big corporations ruled the world , no longer seems so far fetched to me any more.

 

I also find it disappointing to see so many members picking over the bones of Pono before it is even officially released. There is some innovative filtering etc.in the digital area and a better than average output stage from Charles Hansen, who has a way of churning out highly regarded products.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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Actually, I'm not criticizing the young with my above statements, I'm just relating my observations. However, I do have to wonder if our parents and grandparents saw us in the same light as many of us see see today's young? Their styles and tastes do seem very radical to me. What I've noticed over the years is that each successive generation of kids seem to be mainly interested in being different from the last generation. It doesn't seem to be a question of being different-better, just different. The result seems to be different worse. Today's pop music is not better than the pop of the 1960's or 70's but seems to be much worse. I dunno, maybe I'm wrong, but I find absolutely no common ground with the tastes and styles of today's youth culture. Perhaps it's supposed to be that way, but I can't help but weep for the future on a lot of levels.

 

It's not about being critical as you put it......it's simply a lack of understanding. Social trends develop out of the social climate....economics, politics, war, ....and of course marketing. Urban music ( more people live in cities than ever before) IMO has become more primal or instinctual relying on rythym or beat. Complexity is simply too much to focus on with so many more significant concerns and distractions. Reverting back to one's primal sense ( we lack instinct so....) may seem more natural or fundamental, a relief from the structured environment of now being born and bred to work and earn. Good or bad I suppose depends on your perspective..........but as Niel puts it 'rock and roll will never die'. I really hope he doesn't forget that lyric as PONO develops. We'll see.

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That's quite correct. The young seem to want quantity rather than quality. They encode their music at the lowest possible data rate in order to get more "songs" on their portable devices. They don't seem to really care how they sound as long as they're loud and go boom at 80 Hz. Yes, I'm generalizing.

 

My son who just turned 16 along with his friends have turned to vinyl as much as they can. This us with zero prompting from my end aside from providing a turntable.

When I was driving him and a couple friends back from Warp Tour after a stop they just had to make at a record store they had heard about I innocently asked if they liked the sound of digital or vinyl better and they all chimed in as one VINYL! The situation is not as dire as some folks make it out to be. I'm guessing that it's simply that MANY that contribute to this site may just be (as we frequently thought of our parents) to be "out of touch".

David

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Neither can I, but we are far from blameless. We are leaving this world in far worse shape than when we came into it.

 

Agreed.

 

 

At least we haven't yet caused a Nuclear Holocaust like appeared likely at one stage.

 

There's plenty of time for that, and I'm not convinced that we are out of the woods in that respect either.

 

That fictional TV series with Jessica Alba, where there were street oxygen stations, and big corporations ruled the world , no longer seems so far fetched to me any more.

 

I'm not familiar with that TV show. But the premise, as you described it, doesn't seem all that far-fetched.

 

I also find it disappointing to see so many members picking over the bones of Pono before it is even officially released. There is some innovative filtering etc.in the digital area and a better than average output stage from Charles Hansen, who has a way of churning out highly regarded products.

 

I don't disagree that the device has some fascinating technology behind it, and promises to probably sound better than most similar devices already on the market, but I think that it's form factor and intended market have pretty much killed it before it's even launched. I know that I wouldn't buy it simply due to its shape. The word "awkward" comes to mind as an apt description of it's size and shape.

George

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'rock and roll will never die'.

 

 

I certainly hope that's not true. In fact I suspect that much of it will die with the generation that spawned it only to be replaced by the next generation's abominable "music". I can't see, for instance, many people still listening to the Rolling Stones' music two hundred years from now, the way millions of people the world over still listen to Beethoven. That's too depressing for me to even contemplate.

George

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Was not "classical" music the pop of that era? It is not as if Beethoven is obscure.

I certainly hope that's not true. In fact I suspect that much of it will die with the generation that spawned it only to be replaced by the next generation's abominable "music". I can't see, for instance, many people still listening to the Rolling Stones' music two hundred years from now, the way millions of people the world over still listen to Beethoven. That's too depressing for me to even contemplate.

Forrest:

Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA

DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP>

Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz

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Personally I get more depressed by "experts" who pronounce a whole genre of music abominable.

 

Whatever people listen to from Britney Spears and Enenem through to Mahler and Schostokovich is okay by me. Not always my taste but not to be dismissed as bad or wrong taste.

 

I certainly hope that's not true. In fact I suspect that much of it will die with the generation that spawned it only to be replaced by the next generation's abominable "music". I can't see, for instance, many people still listening to the Rolling Stones' music two hundred years from now, the way millions of people the world over still listen to Beethoven. That's too depressing for me to even contemplate.

Eloise

---

...in my opinion / experience...

While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing.

And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism.

keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out.

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I completely agree with this Eloise. I thrive on new music, and my tastes cross most genres. When we see the super popular "modern" acts, I think that we often forget that they represent the masses for pop culture of the era. Later the chaff will be dispelled and the "Beethovens and Rolling Stones" will remain popular for generations. The idea that any music will die when the originating generation dies is folly. I constantly see young adults who listen to Led Zep, Stones and the Beatles. Like it or not, it is hear to stay...

Personally I get more depressed by "experts" who pronounce a whole genre of music abominable.

 

Whatever people listen to from Britney Spears and Enenem through to Mahler and Schostokovich is okay by me. Not always my taste but not to be dismissed as bad or wrong taste.

Forrest:

Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA

DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP>

Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz

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