The CA Universal UPnP app Kickstarter.

[wappinghigh]

Hi everyone.

 

Computeraudiophiles who are into streaming know doubt know the frustrations of finding an appropriate UPnP control point.

 

see http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f22-networking-networked-audio-and-streaming/holy-multiroom-hirez-direct-stream-digital-streaming-batman-20709/

 

I can't be the only one out there thinking this!

 

I propose we launch a not for profit kickstarter.

 

We raise money from this. We get support here at CA..

 

We even call it the Computer Audiophile UPnP app

 

This will raise awareness.

 

But we do it properly.

 

We get additional funding by advertising here on CA streaming sites like Pandora and Spotify.. the hirez money making bits in particular.. Chris gives us the money from this (by giving him naming rights to the app)

 

Once we get enough funding we put it out there for tender on freelancer.com

 

We get every wiz kid programmer in the entire world working on this.

 

We get those streaming services right in the app.. supported properly

 

We also get support for stereo/mulitchannel PCM and DSD. all formats.

 

We support MinimServer, Twonky, HQplayer and JRiver uPnP servers initially.....maybe a few more..

 

We initially try and support multi rooms (but not in sync) : with a view to doing multicast UPnP later if possible (See the paper on this in the thread link above.)

 

The aim is to make this the most versatile, best supported, flexible, rock solid UPnP control point out there..

 

The aim is to make it the swiss army knife of UPnP Control points.

 

The aim is to beat Sonos at it's own game..

 

(but this time for HiRez.DSD streaming using all the fab pieces of renederer hardware that are already out there..)

 

We make the GUI clean like Sonos..

 

We make it better than that...

 

We do this!

 

We nail this sucker once and for all!

 

Who's "in"?

[Audio_ELF]

While we're talking about ideals for control applications ... I would like to be able to access either multiple pieces of album art or (ideally) access a pdf file I have linked to the track / album.

 

Eloise

[realhifi]

Be sure to advertise this in the Linn and Naim forums (if they allow it). Contact PS Audio also, they are in that arena.

[wappinghigh]

Yep. I think it's about time a UPnP Control point was taken seriously.

 

Hence my idea.

 

I dont have the means of writing this code myself but that is not the point..

 

The point is none of the manufacturers seem serious enough to REALLY DO THIS PROPERLY

 

And non of the "freebie" versions out there are properly supported..

 

I figure it's about time a decent UPnP Control point app gets written, supported and developed for *everyone*...

 

...with the emphasis on making it the darn best Control Point out there.. PERIOD.

 

Of course the obvious candidate here would be JRiver to do this for us, but I'm fed up with them concentrating continually on computer based media libraries..

 

About time the got real and gave us JPlay "untethered"

[Audio_ELF]

About time the got real and gave us JPlay "untethered"

I think you mean JRemote (which isn't actually made by jriver iirc).

 

Its possible J.River may be heading towards a more client / server (or server / control / player) methodology if you look at the ID player.

 

Eloise

[Skeptic]

Am I missing something, or is there a reason you can't just run JRiver on your server, and use JRemote for control?

 

I think you mean JRemote (which isn't actually made by jriver iirc).

Its possible J.River may be heading towards a more client / server (or server / control / player) methodology if you look at the ID player.

JRemote was not developed by JRiver, but the developer now works for them: LesPaul is at JRiver Now

 

JRiver has had UPnP/DLNA support for as long as I have been using the application.

 

The ID project seems to be about creating their own flexible DLNA client device. You wouldn't believe how many DLNA devices don't even have support for basic things like gapless playback.

I think they just got fed up and decided to take matters into their own hands.

[Paul R]

Maybe a good idea, though a little ambitious. Are you thinking this would be licensed to manufacturers? Some of whom have already developed their own proprietary versions? If so, that might not be a bad idea at all.

 

On the other hand, this is a non-trivial amount of work and effort, and without a "tangible" product a person could touch, see, or own. Not sure it is thought through all the way yet. Lots of promise! But like always, the devil is the details.

 

-Paul

[The Computer Audiophile]

This is an interesting idea Wap. I'd love to hammer out this idea a bit more.

 

We need to discuss everything from the obvious needs / wants of the app, who owns it, who continues to support it and update it, who creates it, is it open source, etc...

 

CA may be willing to invest in this as a project if the conditions make sense from a business perspective. I'm not sure a Kickstarter campaign interests me as a business owner. I'm more willing to partially fund it and seek others to fund it as well.

 

Let's continue the discussion.

[wappinghigh]

Maybe a good idea, though a little ambitious. Are you thinking this would be licensed to manufacturers? Some of whom have already developed their own proprietary versions? If so, that might not be a bad idea at all.

 

On the other hand, this is a non-trivial amount of work and effort, and without a "tangible" product a person could touch, see, or own. Not sure it is thought through all the way yet. Lots of promise! But like always, the devil is the details.

 

-Paul

 

Sure Paul. I absolutely agree... it would be a huge task.. that's why I put it up here for discussion on the best way to take this further...

[wappinghigh]

This is an interesting idea Wap. I'd love to hammer out this idea a bit more.

 

We need to discuss everything from the obvious needs / wants of the app, who owns it, who continues to support it and update it, who creates it, is it open source, etc...

 

CA may be willing to invest in this as a project if the conditions make sense from a business perspective. I'm not sure a Kickstarter campaign interests me as a business owner. I'm more willing to partially fund it and seek others to fund it as well.

 

Let's continue the discussion.

 

Great!

[wappinghigh]

Am I missing something, or is there a reason you can't just run JRiver on your server, and use JRemote for control?

 

JRemote was not developed by JRiver, but the developer now works for them: LesPaul is at JRiver Now

 

JRiver has had UPnP/DLNA support for as long as I have been using the application.

 

The ID project seems to be about creating their own flexible DLNA client device. You wouldn't believe how many DLNA devices don't even have support for basic things like gapless playback.

I think they just got fed up and decided to take matters into their own hands.

 

Sure. Understood. But I think there is a need for a better version of the type of product JRemote is.. One without the need for a JRiver server. And one that has in built online music service streaming as well..

 

The user shouldn't have to keep swapping out of an app all the time to switch between these two ways of getting their music.

 

..the Non gapless issue is becoming less of a problem with more and more devices coming out like the SotM Mini Server and the Aires

 

...And in any case with the movement to cloud based music services, gapless is a non issue...

[Paul R]

Sure. Understood. But I think there is a need for a better version of the type of product JRemote is.. One without the need for a JRiver server. And one that has in built online music service streaming as well..

 

The user shouldn't have to keep swapping out of an app all the time to switch between these two ways of getting their music.

 

..the Non gapless issue is becoming less of a problem with more and more devices coming out like the SotM Mini Server and the Aires

 

...And in any case with the movement to cloud based music services, gapless is a non issue...

 

i think you will find there is a need for at least a reference server implementation. One of the problems with DLNA is it tries to be everything for every person. That is possible to design for, but it is much more difficult than building a framework each piece can be attached to. Software and communications systems design wise that is.

 

Just a wag, but I would see server software, client software, and glue software. Client/Server can be loosely coupled. The trade off for doing that is, to get reasonable speed, you need much more powerful clients. Again that isn't a cut, just some comments. So for example, a software program, like JRMC or iTunes, could act as a server/source. It could also in theory, act as a client. Both accomplished by writing a bit of glue code to services and libraries provided by this application.

 

So technically, I can see it happening.

Paul

[wappinghigh]

Ok

 

I have found out music streaming services will only let you integrate a stream into apps that are free...

 

So there is a problem here??

 

Maybe. I don't know..

 

I envisage this to be a not for profit app.. but you might need to charge something for it to break even (and cover support and development costs)..

[realhifi]

Ok

 

I have found out music streaming services will only let you integrate a stream into apps that are free...

 

So there is a problem here??

 

Maybe. I don't know..

 

I envisage this to be a not for profit app.. but you might need to charge something for it to break even (and cover support and development costs)..

 

The iOS app Roomie, which costs $19.95 for base configuration has integration for Pandora (the subscription version) through their integration with Marantz/Denon products and also works in concert with SONOS and all the streaming services they offer.

 

 

 

Point being that apps that are profitable can work with streaming services.

[wappinghigh]

^ Well that's weird..not according to the Plug Player developers...

[realhifi]

^ Well that's weird..not according to the Plug Player developers...

 

Just sayin. It's already out there so not sure why they would only include their services on free apps. I certainly could understand them being selective in which apps would offer their streams though.

[wappinghigh]

Could Roomie be used as a UPnP Control point for hi Rez?

[wappinghigh]

^ Edit above. I have purchased the Roomie app. And enquired about this on their forum. It doesn't support UPnP natively. For example UPnP servers do not automatically show up. Neither to Renderers. (Sonos does.... so have they arrangement here.. ???) UPnP devices need to be added specifically by the Roomie support team... I am jack of doing this sort of thing myself actually.. why the heck doesn't someone JDI

 

(= Just do it?)

 

So can we get back on track with this great idea for an APP> >>>? Cheers

[wappinghigh]

What are THE FACTS concerning the music streaming services supporting UPnP Control Point software?

 

This idea aint going anywhere (even off first base) without support from them...

 

Let's start with that shall we?

[realhifi]

^ Edit above. I have purchased the Roomie app. And enquired about this on their forum. It doesn't support UPnP natively. For example UPnP servers do not automatically show up. Neither to Renderers. (Sonos does.... so have they arrangement here.. ???)

 

 

I would imagine they definitely have an "arrangement" in that they are emulating their code into their app for control purposes. Roomie is constantly looking for tighter integration within their app on any device they can. They just introduced a much tighter integration with TiVo for example and continue to work with Sonos on this also. Their reach is much broader than UPNP control and they are not looking to be what you are seeking but merely a controller for devices.

 

Roomie supports devices. They have code for pretty much any device on the market and if they don't you can "learn" aspects of the device to control it. If for example you want the app to control a Marantz then it can show libraries that can be streamed to the Marantz. They are very interested in control so emailing or calling them to see what they offer (or can in the future) would be in order for you I would think. Just remember, they are a company that is interested in making profit so if there is basically nothing there for them then spending resources on this would not be in their interests.

[wappinghigh]

http://www.androidpolice.com/2014/02/10/bubbleupnp-update-allows-root-users-to-stream-audio-from-most-apps-to-any-upnp-or-dlna-device

 

Interesting work around. This would allow a user to stream Pandora etc to the SOTM Mini Server via and within bubbleUPNP...

[Cebolla]

Very surprised that it took 21 posts before anyone mentioned the excellent BubbleUPnP standard UPnP/DLNA gapless supporting controller AND OpenHome Media aka UPnP with Linn extensions controller AND much more. Problem is its developer, Michael Pujos (aka Bubbleguuum), has limited resources so there's no iOS version (Android only) and it could do with a GUI revamp a la JRemote / Lumin app / iTunes.

 

It would certainly be worth getting Bubbleguuum involved somehow.

[Bloodwound]

Very surprised that it took 21 posts before anyone mentioned the excellent BubbleUPnP standard UPnP/DLNA gapless supporting controller AND OpenHome Media aka UPnP with Linn extensions controller AND much more. Problem is its developer, Michael Pujos (aka Bubbleguuum), has limited resources so there's no iOS version (Android only) and it could do with a GUI revamp a la JRemote / Lumin app / iTunes.

 

It would certainly be worth getting Bubbleguuum involved somehow.

I can vouch for bubble. I think the "backbone" in the program is excellent, it just works, never crashes and never slows down. Even on an old galaxy 2 telephone. With a little ui refresh and maybe caching along the way the lumin app does, it would be great. As most android programs, its written in java, so it has to be rewritten for ios. In the meantime the lumin app works pretty well, but could be faster and also a little more stable.

[Distinctive]

At least with my Lumin A1 the Lumin app is dead stable.

 

One path to take is to make renders Open Home compatible for use with the Lumin app.

Another path is to wait for PixelMagic to release the Lumin app as a generic uPnP control point. I know for certain that this has been discussed but the final outcome of these discussions (if any) is unknown.

I also use Roomie, which I think totally wipe the others off the pitch, but the cumbersome implementation of uPnP totally ruin the whole experience. At least they should make an intuitive object configurator opposed to the SDK solution of today. Some features are implemented extremely elegant, but outside the box the opposite is true.

And lastly, it is a challenge to make an app compatible with all platforms.

[realhifi]

At least with my Lumin A1 the Lumin app is dead stable.

 

One path to take is to make renders Open Home compatible for use with the Lumin app.

Another path is to wait for PixelMagic to release the Lumin app as a generic uPnP control point. I know for certain that this has been discussed but the final outcome of these discussions (if any) is unknown.

I also use Roomie, which I think totally wipe the others off the pitch, but the cumbersome implementation of uPnP totally ruin the whole experience. At least they should make an intuitive object configurator opposed to the SDK solution of today. Some features are implemented extremely elegant, but outside the box the opposite is true.

And lastly, it is a challenge to make an app compatible with all platforms.

 

The UPnP support (or implementation) on Roomie is it's weak point but you can simply tell it through a URL to go to another app (say remote, Sonos, Bubble, etc, and it will open that app within Roomie. This will come into play more seamlessly in iOS 8 on iPad when they get dual windows all straightened out.