Should I choose a Sonos or a Mac Mini?

[Abolive]

Hi Paul

Yes I guess it can be controversial. But still let's spend some time on it ;p

I'm pretty convinced of the effect that cables RFI etc... can have on the sound. Regarding a digital signal the only effect I know that can degrade the sound is jitter (but maybe there is sthing else?). Could we not say that the impact of a digital cable or even some vibration control accessory has only an effect regarding jitter? It could crawl back after the DAC or the computer clock.

My point is: taking care of jitter at the latest moment like Empirical Audio or Audiophileo do it, just before the DAC could be critical. Then the SQ between Sonos and Mac Mini should be the same for Red Book in such a configuration or do I miss sthing?

[Paul R]

Hi Paul

Yes I guess it can be controversial. But still let's spend some time on it ;p

I'm pretty convinced of the effect that cables RFI etc... can have on the sound. Regarding a digital signal the only effect I know that can degrade the sound is jitter (but maybe there is sthing else?). Could we not say that the impact of a digital cable or even some vibration control accessory has only an effect regarding jitter? It could crawl back after the DAC or the computer clock.

My point is: taking care of jitter at the latest moment like Empirical Audio or Audiophileo do it, just before the DAC could be critical. Then the SQ between Sonos and Mac Mini should be the same for Red Book in such a configuration or do I miss sthing?

 

(grin) In theory, yes. In practice, it does not always work out that way.

 

Part of the problem probably lies in there are different types of jitter, and there can be an enormous number of causes for it.

 

Also, there are many different types/brands/models of hardware to manage USB connections. Some designers spend more or design with parts that work better or worse than other parts- at least in some areas.

 

Trying to to reduce the problem to a simple statement does not work unless you know and account for every variable in the chain. Since if we all did that, there would be no time left to listen to the music, it is a pretty useless exercise.

 

General rules of thumb seem to be pretty good guides for what to expect, but listening, in your own system, with your own ears, is still the most foolproof way to choose audio gear. Including digital cables. If the cables all sound the same and your system sounds good, congrats! You are doing something right.

[Paul R]

I have been trying to get an older Play:3 and a new Play:5 (borrowed!) to stream from JRMC. It actually seems to work, though sometimes there seems to be gaps in the playback. I am not sure if it Sonos, DNLA, or JRMC at fault there, but it does indeed work. Amazing...

 

-Paul

[One and a half]

Hi Paul

Yes I guess it can be controversial. But still let's spend some time on it ;p

I'm pretty convinced of the effect that cables RFI etc... can have on the sound. Regarding a digital signal the only effect I know that can degrade the sound is jitter (but maybe there is sthing else?).

 

Ah yup. The waveform in the USB train is a differential pulsed voltage. As all voltages are susceptible to remora (parasites) which travel with the main waveform, this is the other major source of noise that travels from the computer to the DAC. This noise is usually ultrasonic to RF realm. Depending on the cable design, the manufacturer may have built in measures to attenuate this noise, for example doping the shield with semiconductors, or other exotic materials favourable to marketing mojo.

[Cebolla]

I have been trying to get an older Play:3 and a new Play:5 (borrowed!) to stream from JRMC. It actually seems to work, though sometimes there seems to be gaps in the playback. I am not sure if it Sonos, DNLA, or JRMC at fault there, but it does indeed work. Amazing...

 

-Paul

Paul, I believe Sonos does not officially support UPnP/DLNA, though their network streaming devices can be seen and used as DLNA renderers from UPnP/DLNA control points, such as the one provided by JRMC. So it's possible that Sonos doesn't support gapless playback when used this way.

 

I'd expect the majority of users to control their Sonos systems using the proprietary mechanism, via remote control hardware and/or provided apps for iOS, Android, etc. This is supposed to support gapless, though will normally be using the Sonos built-in media library, which accesses the audio files directly over the network via network shares.

 

Sonos controllers are not supposed to be able to access UPnP/DLNA server provided media libraries, though there are a few exceptions, such as the default Windows UPnP/DLNA server. Did you try using Sonos, via its own control mechanism (including its media library)? If so, how does it compare to JRMC and could you see the JRiver UPnP/DLNA server from the Sonos controller?

 

John

[Cebolla]

Ah yup. The waveform in the USB train is a differential pulsed voltage. As all voltages are susceptible to remora (parasites) which travel with the main waveform, this is the other major source of noise that travels from the computer to the DAC. This noise is usually ultrasonic to RF realm. Depending on the cable design, the manufacturer may have built in measures to attenuate this noise, for example doping the shield with semiconductors, or other exotic materials favourable to marketing mojo.

This is one of the reasons why some choose to use playback devices (eg the streamer/renderer itself) with good internal DACs (plus other decent components, power supply, build, etc) in the first place, so no need to use external DACs.

 

It's interesting to note that only the Sonos is being asked by the OP to compare to the Mac Mini and no other streamer. So is it sound quality and/or ease of use that's important? Can Sonos give you both?

[Paul R]

Paul, I believe Sonos does not officially support UPnP/DLNA, though their network streaming devices can be seen and used as DLNA renderers from UPnP/DLNA control points, such as the one provided by JRMC. So it's possible that Sonos doesn't support gapless playback when used this way.

 

I'd expect the majority of users to control their Sonos systems using the proprietary mechanism, via remote control hardware and/or provided apps for iOS, Android, etc. This is supposed to support gapless, though will normally be using the Sonos built-in media library, which accesses the audio files directly over the network via network shares.

 

Sonos controllers are not supposed to be able to access UPnP/DLNA server provided media libraries, though there are a few exceptions, such as the default Windows UPnP/DLNA server. Did you try using Sonos, via its own control mechanism (including its media library)? If so, how does it compare to JRMC and could you see the JRiver UPnP/DLNA server from the Sonos controller?

 

John

 

It works perfectly using the supplied Sono's software of course. The point is Sonos software cannot drive our main music systems as it lacks high res or DSD support. Using JRMC to drive tbe Sonos device integrates Sonos perfectly save for a bit of gapping where it does not belong. This was an attempt to see if it would work well enough that the original poster could then avoid having to make a choice. A sort of "have your cake and eat it too" type of situation. JRemote is much better than the current Sonos app, and Sonos sema to be ignoring iOS with their new app.

 

Can anyone else verify this gapped playback behavior when driven from JRMC please? I want to be somewhat sure that it isn't just an anomoly in my setup.

 

This is similar to the trick I use to stream to a second bedroom with JRMC, using only an Airport Express. From the Mac. I use Audio/Midi to select the Airport Device, from JRMC, I add a zone pointed to Airplay, and instant streaming from JRMC to Airplay. No gaps, no troubles, great 44.1 sound. I do set that up so JRMC does any necessary conversions instead of the core audio SRC.

 

If this gapped playback behavior verfies in other systems, it once again shows that DNLA is somewhat inferior for Audio use, unless a vendor has significantly extended it.

[Cebolla]

Yes, it's a shame if Sonos doesn't support gapless playback when used with third party controllers, but I believe the fact that you are able to control it from JRiver is more by accident than design.

 

Like I said it's not officially supposed to be a UPnP/DLNA renderer (though it obviously uses UPnP privately), so you can't really blame Sonos for not providing the SetNextAVTransportURI functionality in its streamers, required for standard UPnP/DLNA gapless playback. Therefore, it's probably not a good idea to use Sonos as an example for showing any DLNA deficiencies.

 

Presumably that AirPlay streaming trick from JRMC is a Mac only feature, using its OS's built-in support for AirPlay streaming from an audio source. Audio playback is therefore done by JRMC itself and it's this captured sound that is streamed via AirPlay, so no surprises this is gapless. This is not the same as streaming via UPnP/DLNA, where JRMC is only being used as a UPnP/DLNA controller, so no actual music playback is happening within JRMC. It's the Sonos that's doing the playback of the individual file tracks, from the network locations given to it by the JRMC UPnP/DLNA controller.

[Paul R]

Yes, it's a shame if Sonos doesn't support gapless playback when used with third party controllers, but I believe the fact that you are able to control it from JRiver is more by accident than design.

 

Like I said it's not officially supposed to be a UPnP/DLNA renderer (though it obviously uses UPnP privately), so you can't really blame Sonos for not providing the SetNextAVTransportURI functionality in its streamers, required for standard UPnP/DLNA gapless playback. Therefore, it's probably not a good idea to use Sonos as an example for showing any DLNA deficiencies.

 

Presumably that AirPlay streaming trick from JRMC is a Mac only feature, using its OS's built-in support for AirPlay streaming from an audio source. Audio playback is therefore done by JRMC itself and it's this captured sound that is streamed via AirPlay, so no surprises this is gapless. This is not the same as streaming via UPnP/DLNA, where JRMC is only being used as a UPnP/DLNA controller, so no actual music playback is happening within JRMC. It's the Sonos that's doing the playback of the individual file tracks, from the network locations given to it by the JRMC UPnP/DLNA controller.

 

While I think you are right in everything you describe, including the technology, I don't know about the UPnP/DNLA stack. It also may be that someone else will duplicate the experiment and find different results.

 

If Sonos was not such a closed environment, more people would use it. I think it remains a closed environment solely because they company does not want to invest in improving the products. That isn't all bad by the way, as it produces some stable products.

 

I think if they wanted to use the UPnP software stack, they should have implemented it properly however. Still, that doesn't make much difference, the OP was asking about choosing a Sonos or a Mac Mini. I thought for a bit that he perhaps would not have to choose, but could have both nicely integrated. He can, perhaps, assuming that gapless playback is not important to him.

 

The Sonos is a closed environment, and the Mac Mini is not. The Sono's cannot handle hi-res or DSD content, the Mac Mini can handle whatever the DAC it is streaming to can accept.

 

I would also argue that Airplay devices always seem to work, seamlessly, without any little gotcha's save for occasional network issues. DNLA/UPnP devices always seem to have a "it works great except for ..." issues. Even Sono's boxes experience those occasional network issues as well.

[DaQi]

Just went to check this out on the Sonos in the other room and it definitely sounds like I have gapless playback coming from JRiver to my Sonos.

 

One thing that may or may not be important is that both JRiver and Sonos point to the same location for their music. I did the test using JRemote connecting to JRiver and playing to a remote Sonos box.

 

I also noticed that at the end of the song the time ran over on JRemote and showed a negative time remaining for a couple seconds before the next song registered on JRemote. Playback was completely gapless from song to song. I was using Pink Floyd The Wall as that was the first album that came to mind that I know was gapless between tracks. Not sure if this is normal behavior or not as I haven't paid that close attention previously.

[Paul R]

Hey - that is excellent news! It probably means I screwed something up in the setting for the zone or something... I will have to try again tonight...

-Paul

 

 

Just went to check this out on the Sonos in the other room and it definitely sounds like I have gapless playback coming from JRiver to my Sonos.

 

One thing that may or may not be important is that both JRiver and Sonos point to the same location for their music. I did the test using JRemote connecting to JRiver and playing to a remote Sonos box.

 

I also noticed that at the end of the song the time ran over on JRemote and showed a negative time remaining for a couple seconds before the next song registered on JRemote. Playback was completely gapless from song to song. I was using Pink Floyd The Wall as that was the first album that came to mind that I know was gapless between tracks. Not sure if this is normal behavior or not as I haven't paid that close attention previously.

[realhifi]

After setting up dozens and dozens of SONOS systems I can only comment on the complete satisfaction I have heard from each and every customer I have done systems for. We recently did wiring for in ceiling speakers throughout a loft being remodeled in an area close to us that is a summer home for a high up Apple iTunes Store programmer and he is using all SONOS to drive all the rooms seperately and has zero issues and in fact has SONOS set up for 14 zones in his home back in California all using seperate zone amps and swears by it. Him and all his cronies love SONOS and actually think it sounds fantastic. Of course they are not even using cd quality files but hey, who am I to argue with a customer?