Wyred 4 Sound Dac2SE Upgrade Revisited & Findings -- The Best Decision Unequivocally!

[REShaman]

I have been running this way since Thursday and like what I hear. I have tested it with 3 amps so far. My ML #380S maybe going up for sale.

 

In the past, I tried other CDP's that had preamp sections, but didn't like their coarse volume level granularity. I am not finding the granularity and output voltage range of the DAC2-DSDSE lacking for my amps.

 

Interesting. Given you excellent system, this feedback is very encouraging. And inspires me to want to find out for myself and discern what, if any, I hear that may be different good, nada, (fill in blank).

 

Best,

Richard

[Aspiring audiophile]

I am not finding the granularity and output voltage range of the DAC2-DSDSE lacking for my amps.

 

Thanks for the reply. This is very encouraging! I am glad to hear the grain is gone. How would you say the soundstage, warmth, smoothness is with the DAC2-SE as the preamp compared with running into a preamp?

[Aspiring audiophile]

I still prefer using my Parasound JC2 as a preamp with the DAC-2 DSD SE.

 

I really appreciate the feedback of those who have used the SE as a preamp. Since you still prefer the Parasound JC2 preamp in the chain, I'm curious what the difference is with and without the preamp. What specifically in terms of sound did the JC2 add for you?

[Aspiring audiophile]

Richard,

 

Thank you for your kind words and warm welcome to Computer Audiophile. I'll admit, I have been intimidated to post on the forum (not for any negative reasons), but it is clear there are some highly intelligent folks on the forum.

 

As my name implies, I'm new at this hobby (not the love of music, that is nothing new. It is diving into learning how to replicate that audio euphoria in a personal setting.) What a fascinating pursuit.

 

Your sharing the journey on this thread has really helped me look closer at my system. As for my B&W's being power hungry, you are absolutely correct there .

 

As it stands, with the W4S DAC2 as my current preamp, I can reproduce music at concert levels without my amp breaking a sweat. I just feel like something is missing. I can't put my finger on it, but it's like frosty the snowman without his magic hat (sorry, I have young kids). His form is all there, but there isn't the life, the "sparkle".

 

If i discover that a preamp is the "cure", I'll likely need to wait a while for timing. If the SE upgrade is the missing link, I will rush and get it done. I certainly understand that you cannot say if it is in my system, but I will eagerly await your personal impressions when you have a chance to critically listen to your DAC2-SE direct to your amps.

 

Thanks again for the great thread!

 

Aspiring audiophile,

 

Welcome to CA and thank you very much for your kind remarks. Again, timing being everything, you interests and concerns are providential not only in posing the questions you ask but in the focus you bring with those questions and aspirations (pun maybe intended).

 

I appreciate the responses from emailtim and jrsub in response to your first post. As you can read my signature and discern what I have as my main system which I keep separate from my HT system intentionally. My KEF Reference 107 are 4 ohms (circa 1986) and the Wyred 4 Sound SX1000 mono blocs provide ample power for the KEFs. I am not as familiar with other members equipment, so I hesitate to recommend. I am better at describing my own experience. I imagine, though, your B&W 800 require ample power.

 

The one time pre-upgrade that I employed my W4S Dac2 as a preamp straight to the SX1000s, I was impressed. My STP-SE was at W4S so that EJ could write some code to fix something that occurred. Or I would not have thought to employ my Dac2 as a preamp. I do intend to discover very soon what the upgraded Dac2SE directly connected to my Bryston 10B crossover without the STP-SE in the chain sounds like. I have spent a small fortune on ICs. My only hesitation was the number of hours of play time post upgrade, believing the more hours of play time the better my discernment of the Dac2SEs performance rendering of SQ. I am believing more and more that less is more. But I would never base that on faith alone or someone's experience or recommendation without my own subjective experience.

 

All the more reason for me to be more reticient to advise as much I as would want to be of service to you at least in offering up my experience. I believe emailtim has given the best advice, which is to find a way to hear at home what you are seeking first before committing. I am not referring to whether or not to upgrade. I can recommend and find jrsub''s experience very close to mine that the upgrade is to our advantage. This week have extended play time on the W4S Dac2SE for the last week (all day each day), I intend to disconnect from my STP-SE just to hear the Dac2SE as a Dac/Preamp.

 

So glad you landed here at this thread, and look forward to more responses and inputs from you. If not in specific recommendations, I support you in the upgrade and discovering first hand what potential configurations actually deliver that correspond to your preference for less bright (more warmth?) and non-fatiguing SQ. I own all the software players and have since 2011. My go-to player is Amarra Symphony; and I now enjoy Audirvana Plus more than ever since the upgrade. The upgraded Dac2SE is another Dac to my discernment; and that is an excellent result. Though less is more, the ingredients of change delivered in the upgrade has provided much, much more in SQ satisfaction.

 

Good fortune. Let us know where you take your intention.

 

Best,

Richard

[emailtim]

... I am glad to hear the grain is gone. How would you say the soundstage, warmth, smoothness is with the DAC2-SE as the preamp compared with running into a preamp?

 

Aspiring Audiophile,

 

Sorry for the confusion. I did not mean grain as in sound, I meant granularity as in the size of the steps in the volume adjustments. There are enough fine steps to get you to the desired volume without getting stuck in between 2 settings (either too low or to loud).

 

I have a nice sound stage and warmth. Detail and dynamics are there. Voices are great. Orchestral pieces are nicely laid out. Depending on the amp being used, the body is either fuller or leaner.

[emailtim]

... I just feel like something is missing. I can't put my finger on it, but it's like frosty the snowman without his magic hat (sorry, I have young kids). His form is all there, but there isn't the life, the "sparkle". ...

 

Something not for the young kids, but "Chasing the Dragon" can probably be applied to Audiophiles. We can easily get jaded and then need to find our next elusive high.

[dan92075]

I received my upgrade DAC2SE and I can report that I am pretty much hearing exactly Richard's descriptions in this thread.

There is more focus, imaging, and clearly a bigger soundstage.

Most importantly to me, the music has taken on a far more analog sound - I almost feel with some HD sound like I am listening to a record - a sound I have not heard in a long, long time.

 

I should also mention that all these tests have been done with a cheap spare USB cable from my SB Touch running the EDO mod which supports Async USB.

 

What I found most interesting was when I returned to my previous system where in between the SB Touch and the Wyred DAC I was using an external USB-I2S converter. What was amazing to me is I heard the same "house" sound I was so familiar with and had been listening to for the past year! It was clearly the same sound I was so familar with, exact same shape of soundstage, tonality, it was exactly the same in almost every way. Perhaps, perhaps I thought there was a ever so slightly more refined, analogness to the sound compared to before, but even if there was it was very, very slight.

This means that the big advancement in the DAC2SE is related to the internal USB->I2S stage - - which in retrospect I am not so sure why I am so surprised since this is the board that was replaced.

 

But since then I have been doing a lot of reading up on the USB interface issues in relation to DACs. I was not aware of the noise that comes through the voltage and ground lines onto the data lines, ground loops, etc. If I had know all that previously, I would have probably tried to improve my old setup through better usb cords and/or filters.

 

I am now wondering if there is anything I am leaving on the table even with the DAC2SE and its galvonic isolation, considering I am using a cheap USB cord. My next experiment will be to try out a better USB cord and see if there is any improvement.

 

But overall - I would definitely recommend the SE upgrade - if you are interested in significant sound improvements you will be pleased.

[dan92075]

I compared previously the Wyred DAC2 through the Denon AVP-A1 preamp in pure analog mode, versus using the Wyred DAC2 direct.

 

I liked the smoothness of the Denon, but the transients, the liveliness of the music, and the detail was diminished. Overall, I preferred using the Wyred DAC2 as my preamp back then.

 

Now with the DAC2SE, I feel I get the best of all worlds - I get analog smoothness, but I still get the transient speed, the liveliness, the detail.

 

I did try out a STP-SE a while ago - it was a very good preamp - I don't recall it degrading the sound in any way. However, it did produce a noticeably warm sound. It was a little too warm for me, but if that is what you are looking for then perhaps that might work for you.

 

In the meantime, I am definitely enjoying my DAC2SE direct - and have no desire to look elsewhere for a preamp!

 

 

Richard,

 

Thank you for your kind words and warm welcome to Computer Audiophile. I'll admit, I have been intimidated to post on the forum (not for any negative reasons), but it is clear there are some highly intelligent folks on the forum.

 

As my name implies, I'm new at this hobby (not the love of music, that is nothing new. It is diving into learning how to replicate that audio euphoria in a personal setting.) What a fascinating pursuit.

 

Your sharing the journey on this thread has really helped me look closer at my system. As for my B&W's being power hungry, you are absolutely correct there .

 

As it stands, with the W4S DAC2 as my current preamp, I can reproduce music at concert levels without my amp breaking a sweat. I just feel like something is missing. I can't put my finger on it, but it's like frosty the snowman without his magic hat (sorry, I have young kids). His form is all there, but there isn't the life, the "sparkle".

 

If i discover that a preamp is the "cure", I'll likely need to wait a while for timing. If the SE upgrade is the missing link, I will rush and get it done. I certainly understand that you cannot say if it is in my system, but I will eagerly await your personal impressions when you have a chance to critically listen to your DAC2-SE direct to your amps.

 

Thanks again for the great thread!

 

[Melvin]

As it stands, with the W4S DAC2 as my current preamp, I can reproduce music at concert levels without my amp breaking a sweat. I just feel like something is missing. I can't put my finger on it, but it's like frosty the snowman without his magic hat (sorry, I have young kids). His form is all there, but there isn't the life, the "sparkle".

 

If i discover that a preamp is the "cure", I'll likely need to wait a while for timing. If the SE upgrade is the missing link, I will rush and get it done. I certainly understand that you cannot say if it is in my system, but I will eagerly await your personal impressions when you have a chance to critically listen to your DAC2-SE direct to your amps.

 

I've been following this thread as I have an interest in W4S gear. I wonder if you have auditioned the various players. Your initial post (welcome btw) mentions Audirvana Plus but there is no mention of other software. Richard touched upon this briefly and perhaps prior to another hardware purchase, and if you haven't already done so, see/hear if another player will be more to your liking. Many of us have tried most (if not all) and use each. I use Amarra, Audirvana Plus, and Fidelia for example and own BitPerfect, JRiver MC, and Pure Music as well. Each have strengths and weaknesses but more importantly the sound of each is different. You may find one which delivers the detail and nuance without the fatigue. Best of luck in your search.

[jrsub]

I really appreciate the feedback of those who have used the SE as a preamp. Since you still prefer the Parasound JC2 preamp in the chain, I'm curious what the difference is with and without the preamp. What specifically in terms of sound did the JC2 add for you?

 

It was a little bright/thin sounding in my system. I feel the Parasound warmed things up a bit. All depends on your preference.

[russellp]

 

I wonder if you have auditioned the various players. Your initial post (welcome btw) mentions Audirvana Plus but there is no mention of other software.

 

I use Openelec, which plays bit perfect like the others but with the advantage of using even fewer resources than JPlay - best of both worlds so to speak.

[photonblur]

dan92075,

 

"What I found most interesting was when I returned to my previous system where in between the SB Touch and the Wyred DAC I was using an external USB-I2S converter. What was amazing to me is I heard the same "house" sound I was so familiar with and had been listening to for the past year! It was clearly the same sound I was so familar with, exact same shape of soundstage, tonality, it was exactly the same in almost every way. Perhaps, perhaps I thought there was a ever so slightly more refined, analogness to the sound compared to before, but even if there was it was very, very slight.

This means that the big advancement in the DAC2SE is related to the internal USB->I2S stage - - which in retrospect I am not so sure why I am so surprised since this is the board that was replaced."

 

I have been wondering if going direct to the i2s port of a non modified dac2 would

achieve most of the sq gains of a the DAC 2se? If it would my dollars might be

better spent on the w4s music server with i2s out, or any other music server with

an i2s out that would improve upon my present squeezebox touch spdf dac 2 system.

 

pb-

[dan92075]

Thats a really good question - I pondered the same question myself

Wyred has two music servers - the MS-1 and the MS-2, and its the MS-2 that has the i2s output (for an extra ~$1k)

 

So where does one put the extra $1k, in a really good USB-I2S converter in the MS-2, or in the DAC2SE?

 

If I had to take a guess, I would think having the converter would be better in the DAC2SE because the i2s traces would be really short, as well as impedances are very controlled.

 

Even if the MS-2 generated a perfect i2s you still have to go through a cable to get to the DAC2, which opens you up to noise contamination, impedance mismatches, etc.

 

Thats my simplistic guess, but in practice perhaps it makes no difference.

 

At the end of the day, I would suggest contacting Wyred directly. Since you are choosing between two of their products, they should be able to provide guidance.

 

 

 

dan92075,

 

I have been wondering if going direct to the i2s port of a non modified dac2 would

achieve most of the sq gains of a the DAC 2se? If it would my dollars might be

better spent on the w4s music server with i2s out, or any other music server with

an i2s out that would improve upon my present squeezebox touch spdf dac 2 system.

 

pb-

[REShaman]

Dear Members,

 

This thread is just getting better and better with the participation of all those who care to share their experiences. The energy, the tone and content and the enthusiasm is pitch perfect. I am very grateful for the participation of all those who land here to give us the benefit of their experience, pose questions, suggest solutions and ideas for taking what we're going for a bit farther and expand the stage.

 

Early this morning at about 4:50 AM I awakened feeling awful/fluish and after a few hours felt as if I had been literally assaulted. My only purpose in posting this is to let you know I am reading but not writing (well not for long). Taking the rest of the day to feel better. I need some down time. In the mean time, all of you are making this thread one I enjoy visiting any time, but later for me.

 

Enjoy the music,

Richard

[Aspiring audiophile]

That makes sense.

 

Aspiring Audiophile,

 

Sorry for the confusion. I did not mean grain as in sound, I meant granularity as in the size of the steps in the volume adjustments. There are enough fine steps to get you to the desired volume without getting stuck in between 2 settings (either too low or to loud).

 

I have a nice sound stage and warmth. Detail and dynamics are there. Voices are great. Orchestral pieces are nicely laid out. Depending on the amp being used, the body is either fuller or leaner.

[Aspiring audiophile]

Thanks for the warm welcome. I have tried Amarra and settled on Audirvana. Audirvana was smoother with the remote app behind iTunes. I never did a real A/B comparison, but Audirvana just sounded "good" to me.

 

I've been following this thread as I have an interest in W4S gear. I wonder if you have auditioned the various players. Your initial post (welcome btw) mentions Audirvana Plus but there is no mention of other software. Richard touched upon this briefly and perhaps prior to another hardware purchase, and if you haven't already done so, see/hear if another player will be more to your liking. Many of us have tried most (if not all) and use each. I use Amarra, Audirvana Plus, and Fidelia for example and own BitPerfect, JRiver MC, and Pure Music as well. Each have strengths and weaknesses but more importantly the sound of each is different. You may find one which delivers the detail and nuance without the fatigue. Best of luck in your search.

[REShaman]

Thanks for the warm welcome. I have tried Amarra and settled on Audirvana. Audirvana was smoother with the remote app behind iTunes. I never did a real A/B comparison, but Audirvana just sounded "good" to me.

 

Aspiring audiophile, for starters (and enders) which edition of Amarra did you "try"? I do not want this thread to go off on a audio software player tack. I realize that I just contradicted myself by inquiring; but I am just curious. I won't pursue this further as this thread is about W4S Dac2SE. :>}

Best,

Richard

[Aspiring audiophile]

Aspiring audiophile, for starters (and enders) which edition of Amarra did you "try"? I do not want this thread to go off on a audio software player tack. I realize that I just contradicted myself by inquiring; but I am just curious. I won't pursue this further as this thread is about W4S Dac2SE. :>}

Best,

Richard

 

 

I tried the $200 version. I'd like to try it again and have a "shootout" with Audirvana...but I'm too busy playing with cables (a whole other issue .

 

Hope you are recovering from your flu. I'm dying to hear your findings from using the DAC2-SE direct without preamp.

[REShaman]

I tried the $200 version. I'd like to try it again and have a "shootout" with Audirvana...but I'm too busy playing with cables (a whole other issue .

 

Hope you are recovering from your flu. I'm dying to hear your findings from using the DAC2-SE direct without preamp.

 

Thank you. Getting back slowly. Just sent you a PM so as not to clutter the thread with OT. Still feeling a touch off or would have configured my system sans preamp. But I am not 100% so I am being prudent and taking another day or two.

Thank you for your concern.

 

Appreciate your thoughtfulness.

Richard

[REShaman]

Today, my W4SDac2SE caught my attention sonically. I have for the last 14 days been playing the Dac2SE for at least 12 hours a day, changing formats and resolutions when I am around; and leaving "repeat" on. Also switched audio players and played DSD DSF files for extended hours.

 

As I started this post, today after playing DSD files for beaucoup hours, I switched back to mu audio software player of choice, which I am most familiar with having employed it 99.99% of my listening time; and randomly selected a redbook CD converted by XLD to AIFF, specifically, the late, great Michel Petrucciani on piano and his father, Tony on guitar. Just two instruments that I can focus on the SQ without too many elements. It is a live recording so there is an audience element as well.

 

Something has changed. Something Different. Something good. Very noticeable. Let's see: 14 days averaging 12 hours minimum a day = 168 hours. And maybe fifty/sixty hours before the start of marathon playtime. What has changed is the SQ from my system. Suddenly today, the music is so much more "relaxed". Louder. I had turn the volume down. With the Dac2 pre-upgrade, I would listen to Bill Evans' The Complete Village Vanguard Recordings 1961 above 35 to 45 depending. I am presenting listening to disc1 at 18. The focus is ever so more 3D. The audience is deeper in the room.. Seriously. The audience, just as they did those many nights in person at the Vanguard is so audible, I have the impulse to buy them a drink (just to keep their lips busy).

 

I do have the STP-SE still in the chain. Have not gotten around to going straight from Dac2SE to Bryston 10B crossover which passes High to the KEF Reference 107 and low (50Hz) to the JL Audio F112s.

 

Lafaro's bass is dialed in with more definition and bloom as if the camera man turned the focus ring ever so slightly and the sound man changed a setting and found more resonance in the bass (bloom not boom). More real. Motian's drums same thing. The cymbals are a dead give away. If they sound like sizzle, well...one can hear Scott Lafaro hitting the fret board with his strings and at the same time as distinct as ever Paul Motian's brushes, snares, hitting the skins. The instruments have more live, sustain. The bass drum being hit by the pedal, the cymbals sustain, without losing the sticks own the snares. It is 3D even more so. Their location is so distinct, if not careful one can trip over the instruments. Evans' playing even as he lays back for Lafaro's bass and Motian's drums is distinct and pristine but not harsh or fatiguing or antiseptic. It is resonant. Naturally rich and seductive play. Mesmerizing.

 

I have been listening to this recording for years. With every beta tested before final release. I have never heard disc 1 sound this good. Frankly, the upgrade was an improvement, vast, over the Dac2, but listening to this disc I was still hesitant. Today, somebody polished the windows, dialed in real, changed lens. What was bigger, better, sharper, clearer, just upped it in the most fecund way and relaxed at the same time the way a plane is designed to fly itself. This Dac2SE just found a new updraft and the lift is stunning. Easy. Sensual.

 

I may not be feeling great, but at the moment the listening is.

 

Enjoy the music,

Richard

[Toddc2]

Today, my W4SDac2SE caught my attention sonically. I have for the last 14 days been playing the Dac2SE for at least 12 hours a day, changing formats and resolutions when I am around; and leaving "repeat" on. Also switched audio players and played DSD DSF files for extended hours.

 

As I started this post, today after playing DSD files for beaucoup hours, I switched back to mu audio software player of choice, which I am most familiar with having employed it 99.99% of my listening time; and randomly selected a redbook CD converted by XLD to AIFF, specifically, the late, great Michel Petrucciani on piano and his father, Tony on guitar. Just two instruments that I can focus on the SQ without too many elements. It is a live recording so there is an audience element as well.

 

Something has changed. Something Different. Something good. Very noticeable. Let's see: 14 days averaging 12 hours minimum a day = 168 hours. And maybe fifty/sixty hours before the start of marathon playtime. What has changed is the SQ from my system. Suddenly today, the music is so much more "relaxed". Louder. I had turn the volume down. With the Dac2 pre-upgrade, I would listen to Bill Evans' The Complete Village Vanguard Recordings 1961 above 35 to 45 depending. I am presenting listening to disc1 at 18. The focus is ever so more 3D. The audience is deeper in the room.. Seriously. The audience, just as they did those many nights in person at the Vanguard is so audible, I have the impulse to buy them a drink (just to keep their lips busy).

 

I do have the STP-SE still in the chain. Have not gotten around to going straight from Dac2SE to Bryston 10B crossover which passes High to the KEF Reference 107 and low (50Hz) to the JL Audio F112s.

 

Lafaro's bass is dialed in with more definition and bloom as if the camera man turned the focus ring ever so slightly and the sound man changed a setting and found more resonance in the bass (bloom not boom). More real. Motian's drums same thing. The cymbals are a dead give away. If they sound like sizzle, well...one can hear Scott Lafaro hitting the fret board with his strings and at the same time as distinct as ever Paul Motian's brushes, snares, hitting the skins. The instruments have more live, sustain. The bass drum being hit by the pedal, the cymbals sustain, without losing the sticks own the snares. It is 3D even more so. Their location is so distinct, if not careful one can trip over the instruments. Evans' playing even as he lays back for Lafaro's bass and Motian's drums is distinct and pristine but not harsh or fatiguing or antiseptic. It is resonant. Naturally rich and seductive play. Mesmerizing.

 

I have been listening to this recording for years. With every beta tested before final release. I have never heard disc 1 sound this good. Frankly, the upgrade was an improvement, vast, over the Dac2, but listening to this disc I was still hesitant. Today, somebody polished the windows, dialed in real, changed lens. What was bigger, better, sharper, clearer, just upped it in the most fecund way and relaxed at the same time the way a plane is designed to fly itself. This Dac2SE just found a new updraft and the lift is stunning. Easy. Sensual.

 

I may not be feeling great, but at the moment the listening is.

 

Enjoy the music,

Richard

 

I know this recording well. When my system is "on" it sounds incredible with my DAC2. By "on" I mean some listening sessions are better than others and when it's dialled in this recording is magical. I have the Japanese 20 bit K2 version.

 

As an update, I am still waiting for my DAC2se to return from the Canadian distributor Black Sand Audio. It's not clear if they sent it back to W4S for the upgrade or if they took it in on trade for a new unit. Surprisingly the price was about the same either way, I'll let everyone know how it turns out. I ordered an AudioQuest Diamond USB cable to go along with the upgraded DAC, so my expectations are high...

[Melvin]

Something has changed. Something Different. Something good. Very noticeable. Let's see: 14 days averaging 12 hours minimum a day = 168 hours. And maybe fifty/sixty hours before the start of marathon playtime. What has changed is the SQ from my system. Suddenly today, the music is so much more "relaxed". Louder. I had turn the volume down. With the Dac2 pre-upgrade, I would listen to Bill Evans' The Complete Village Vanguard Recordings 1961 above 35 to 45 depending. I am presenting listening to disc1 at 18. The focus is ever so more 3D. The audience is deeper in the room.. Seriously. The audience, just as they did those many nights in person at the Vanguard is so audible, I have the impulse to buy them a drink (just to keep their lips busy).

 

Ahhh .. it seems you have arrived! Terrific post Richard.

[REShaman]

 

For those members who expressed interest in the specs for the Dac2SE (presuming that what I am posting is what was requested), here they are taken from the accompanying user manual for the Dac2SE/DSD. They should be legible when expanded.

 

Best,

Richard

[holzmann]

Is anyone using their W4S DAC2 as a PRE? And if so, what amp are you pairing with?

[Toddc2]

Is anyone using their W4S DAC2 as a PRE? And if so, what amp are you pairing with?

 

Yes, I am running Cardas Neutral Reference XLR to a Sonic Frontiers Power 1 SE Plus from my Dac2 with excellent results.

 

Todd