Opinions Wanted: What is the most Analog Sounding DAC?

[realhifi]

 

 

P.P.S - Hey that brings up a good question though - what would you dealers rather do, loan something for a short period of time, or sell something with right to return?

 

P.P.P.S - or like a couple guys in the Philly area, lease the store owned equipment out for 30 days for a couple hundred bucks? With cheap insurance incase of damage. I really like that model myself.

 

I'd rather loan something out to a prospective customer for a weekend. I don't sell things with a proviso of returning it if all that it is is buyers remorse. LOT'S of that in the hifi trade. I definately will let folks return something that is defective of course. I tend to sell things to people that they hang onto for quite awhile. I maybe have three "sock changers" as I like to call them, where they can't sit still and change things as much as they change their socks. Only problem is they never sit still long enough to actually get a true refernce to comparte things with. They are invariably the ones that are never QUITE satisfied with just about anything.

 

Which stores are those if you don't mind me asking? If the equipment isn't expensive stuff then I think the leasing could work. Store owned usually (nearly always) means their demo piece which you want to put in front of as many people as you can. A couple hundred bucks to tie up a multi thousand dollar piece for a month doesn't make much sense to me. Does it to you? You seem to know business, does this seem like a working model to you? I mean, I suppose there are of course rental places for lot's of things including cars but it usually costs quite a bit to rent things like big power tools, autos, power washers, things like that.

[realhifi]

It's on a 30 day trial David. Open to everyone to do the same thing, so long as you give em a credit card!

 

Is that through Benchmark? Do you get the whole cost back? Is it retail pricing? Do you pay the shipping both ways?

[Paul R]

Retail pricing yes, but I am willing to trade discount for a nice long trial period. Free ground shipping, at least to CONUS. I reproduced their policies below for you. I like it, they are quite confident in their gear, which is very very very good. My hesitation is not with the quality, but with whether or not I like the sound. The trial policy also applies to the DAC-2HGC.

 

 

 

Return Policy for 30-Day Free Trial:

 

This policy applies to DAC1, DAC1 USB, DAC1 PRE, DAC1 HDR, ADC1 USB, MPA1, PRE420, ADC16, and cables. This policy only applies to products purchased directly from Benchmark. USA customers only.

This policy excludes remanufactured, refurbished, and used products. This policy also excludes packages that include headphones and/or speakers.

Products must be returned within the 30-day trial period, and must be in like-new condition. Benchmark reserves the right to apply a reasonable restocking fee for any product not returned in like-new condition. No refund will be issued if the product has been damaged, altered, or abused. No returns after 30 days.

An RMA (return merchandise authorization) number, issued by our Customer Service Department, is required for all returns.

Products must be shipped to Benchmark Media Systems, prepaid and preferably in their original shipping carton. The RMA number needs to be clearly visible on the exterior of the packaging.

Note: If you did not purchase your product from Benchmark, please contact the Authorized Benchmark Dealer you purchased it from to arrange your return. Please be aware that dealer return policies may differ from ours.

 

Is that through Benchmark? Do you get the whole cost back? Is it retail pricing? Do you pay the shipping both ways?

[Paul R]

I'd rather loan something out to a prospective customer for a weekend. I don't sell things with a proviso of returning it if all that it is is buyers remorse. LOT'S of that in the hifi trade. I definately will let folks return something that is defective of course. I tend to sell things to people that they hang onto for quite awhile. I maybe have three "sock changers" as I like to call them, where they can't sit still and change things as much as they change their socks. Only problem is they never sit still long enough to actually get a true refernce to comparte things with. They are invariably the ones that are never QUITE satisfied with just about anything.

 

Which stores are those if you don't mind me asking? If the equipment isn't expensive stuff then I think the leasing could work. Store owned usually (nearly always) means their demo piece which you want to put in front of as many people as you can. A couple hundred bucks to tie up a multi thousand dollar piece for a month doesn't make much sense to me. Does it to you? You seem to know business, does this seem like a working model to you? I mean, I suppose there are of course rental places for lot's of things including cars but it usually costs quite a bit to rent things like big power tools, autos, power washers, things like that.

 

I'll send your email address to them if you like, and ask them to contact you. I'm sure they will be pleased to do that. Honestly, I thought they did that for everyone, but perhaps they are cutting me a deal. (They know me because I lived in that area for a long time.)

 

I suppose like it anything else, it all depends.

 

Lets say you have a $5000 piece of gear. Assuming the gear is fairly rugged and simple, how many do you sell in a month? And is the manufacturer or distributor willing to support you with a second unit or even fast drop shipping? If it is a unit you sell one of every four months - I would be renting it out as often as possible. If you sell five of them every month, not unless the distributor gave me a freebie to loan out.

 

A $10K piece of gear, eh- less likely to let it out of the store unless the cost goes up and they pay for delivery. Even given that, at the $10K level, most people would be willing to pay for a trial. It is a hell of a lot cheaper to make a $500 mistake for a month than a $10K mistake you might be able to resell for 80%.

 

I'm understand buyers remorse, but I have more "sellers" remorse myself. I hate to resell or give up any gear, even when I know it is an appropriate thing to do. I know I will want to hear it again in a few months, or a few years... (grin) Karen thinks it is a mild form of hoarder's disease, I just call it being a bit spoiled. I do understand buyer's remorse when you feel a bit cheated, which will always happen sooner or later, no matter how careful you are.

 

I expect your suppliers would probably jump at a chance to get you to sell even more product for them. The downside is of course, dealing with the idiots who try to steal or damage the gear. That's a pretty big downside.

 

-Paul

[realhifi]

I'll send your email address to them if you like, and ask them to contact you. I'm sure they will be pleased to do that. -Paul

 

This is the dealer that rents equipment we are talking about? Just curious as to how that works for them so if you don't mind why not send me their contact info and I'll get around to calling them sometime.

Thanks!

[spdif-usb]

I can not think of a turntable that has all the filter artifacts and brickwall filters of most DACs either. Let alone the USB jitter errors! That can make Wow and Flutter look pretty meaningless.

But then you could always try to put on one of them poorly digital mastered LPs I guess. ^

[spdif-usb]

I'm kind of wondering if other people are hearing that too.

Not me, at least not with DSD 64. DSD 128 is close to PCM 24/192 (but the latter is 100 per cent transparent as well as sounds MUCH better in multichannel applications than the former) IMO. To my ears, DSD has a tendency to make raw edges that are part of the music sound "rounded", for lack of better words (i.e., it kind of polishes away the natural organic sharpness of the sound).

 

Mmm- just out of curiosity- anyone tried converting PCM to DSD to see how it sounds?

Yeah, IMO it (DSD 64 converted to PCM 24/176.4) sounds even much worse than ordinary Redbook. In fact, some aspects of the sound of native DSD 64 are worse compared to Redbook also IMO.

[spdif-usb]

I hate to resell or give up any gear, even when I know it is an appropriate thing to do. I know I will want to hear it again in a few months, or a few years... (grin) Karen thinks it is a mild form of hoarder's disease, I just call it being a bit spoiled.

Endowment effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[astrostar59]

My vote for most organic sounding DAC? Audio Note 3.1 SE/4.1 Kit. It has none oversampling and no filter which I find is important to that organic sound. Also tubed regulated and tube output stage to clean sound, great bass, that beautiful mid range and clean none edgy treble. Not that there arn't great Oversampling Solid State DACs out their, but the ones I see as close to the Audio Note units are 15K upwards.

 

I nearly bailed on RedBook, but am finally really happy.

 

Mac Mini 2013. Lacia External Firewire 2TB, M2Tech EVO + External Clock & External Power Supplies, USB - S/PDIF Coaxial (RCA).

DAC: Audio Note 3.1 SE KIT with None Oversampling, No Filter. Transformer coupled output & with Tunsol 5687 Tubes.

Pre amplifier Audio Note M3 (UK), Headphones Stax SR-007s 2012 and Stax SRM-717 amp 2009.

Power Amplifier Audio Note Conquest Mono Blocks 300b.

Speakers Zingali Overture 2 Horn Hybrids, Rel Sub.

Dedicated Mains supply RCB, Hifi Mains cables by Cable-R-Us.

Interconnects by Audio Note AN-V. Speaker Cables Solid Copper Core.

Location: Spain. Occupation: Web Designer and developer.

[soundix]

AMR DP-777 is also one of those "Redbook wonders". Very enjoyable in the long term. There will be an DSD update for the DP-777 sometime, but I think there is no rush. There is music and there is something to fiddle around with (hires dsd etc;)). An investment in a DAC which is very good at Redbook playback is always a safe, future-proof investment.

[Paul R]

Had to think about that one. I think it is more that I really just like having a lot of opportunity to recursively check changes. And with Audio, doing that takes a lot of time. When you look at DACs and the potential cost involved with a DAC, one doesn't want to get stuck into defending a purchase because of the cost. Ergo, one tends to split DACs into different pricing levels. Hardly anyone would wince at the price of an AudioQuest DragonFly, and if they buy one and find they really don't like it, they can usually return it or at worst, easily recover most of their cost on ebay, craigslist, or Audiogon.

 

The same is not true for a Benchmark DAC, it's potentionally a $2000 mistake, so Benchmark offering a free trial period makes a lot of sense, and will get a lot more people to try and buy. (Here's where your Endowment effect comes in. )

 

Mytek does the same kind of deal in the U.S. at least, as, in various other ways, do some other DAC manufacturers.

 

Do some of them price and deal a bit on the arrogant side? You bet. Buying one of their DACs is a risk for someone like me, though a $30K mistake is not likely to be a financial disaster for someone spending that much in the first place. Anyway, I would lay serious money that nobody buys that without a nice long in home trial, and if they don't like it, I suspect getting them to pay for it involves changing out the gear for something they do like.

 

That's an interesting economic trend by the way. There is a cutoff level where (most) dealers automagically think different about a customer. A $5K DAC customer is seen as a potential risk. A person spending $280K on a system, including a $30K DAC, is seen differently. I suspect it is all perception more than anything else.

 

-Paul

 

 

Endowment effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[astrostar59]

Hi soundix, I agree. It is also most important to ensure the DAC you invest in can play Integer mode via USB in. If not it won't be future proof. It would then need an SPDIF convertor did did support Integer and feed the SPDIF in on the DAC. Would work but more money. If buying a one box high end player, that should be a given, or don't buy it!

[astrostar59]

Again,I worry about spending top dollar on a one box solution. There are a lot of recent developments in USB to DAC streaming, and a LOT of the big dollar DACs don't have Interger support. If the manufacturer uses their own drivers, it can cause problems as apposed to native drivers (OSX). A better design route for high price DACs would be to have a slot in USB card that CAN be updated for a small costs, even slotted in the the consumer.

 

Ohterwise, we have a mad situation where a flexible DAC with interger and high speed USB3 can beat a giant killer DAC costing 20K upwards. How mad is that?

 

Feel sorry for the DAC buyer. That could go the way of CDPs from Esoteric. 20k paper weights anyone?

[mav52]

Again,I worry about spending top dollar on a one box solution. There are a lot of recent developments in USB to DAC streaming, and a LOT of the big dollar DACs don't have Interger support. If the manufacturer uses their own drivers, it can cause problems as apposed to native drivers (OSX). A better design route for high price DACs would be to have a slot in USB card that CAN be updated for a small costs, even slotted in the the consumer.

 

Ohterwise, we have a mad situation where a flexible DAC with interger and high speed USB3 can beat a giant killer DAC costing 20K upwards. How mad is that?

 

Feel sorry for the DAC buyer. That could go the way of CDPs from Esoteric. 20k paper weights anyone?

 

Speaking of 'Interger support': http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f11-software/updated-integer-mode-capable-device-list-7492/ and no doubt the list has grown since then

[realhifi]

 

 

That's an interesting economic trend by the way. There is a cutoff level where (most) dealers automagically think different about a customer. A $5K DAC customer is seen as a potential risk. A person spending $280K on a system, including a $30K DAC, is seen differently. I suspect it is all perception more than anything else.

 

-Paul

 

Which dealers are those? I'm assuming you are relaying this from actual experience.

[bhobba]

Speaking of 'Interger support': http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f11-software/updated-integer-mode-capable-device-list-7492/ and no doubt the list has grown since then

 

Its wrong - the Off-Ramp does not do integer.

 

Thanks

Bill

[mav52]

Its wrong - the Off-Ramp does not do integer.

 

Thanks

Bill

 

Sorry I didn't make the list send a PM to the author

[MikeJazz]

 

When I hear "best analog sounding DAC" I just about want to scream. That IMO is just SO wrong. I want the best DIGITAL sounding DAC - the one that gives me everything digital has to offer.

 

Hello Robert.

I understand the expression "the best analog sounding DAC" as such: the best DAC's are very close to analog in the domains of being natural, and not fatiguing. I have heard once a system based on dCS Scarlatti that, even in CD resolution, was utterly natural, extended, free from grain...If someone would told me it was a 24/192 would surely fool me. Also a Chord QBD76 has, to me, the same characteristics of analog feel.

 

On the other side, one could say the the best analog comes close to the digital well done: a good analog setup will sound quite, rhythmical with good pace, and very expanded and informative.

[kiskaprince]

APL Hi-Fi DAC-S

Or newest one DAC-M if money is no object

Thanks

[Paul R]

Hi David - I ain't making this stuff up.

 

I was thinking in particular of some Austin dealers who specialize in "ultra high end" and "whole home AV systems." One of my friends is in the $280K system cost range, and he definitely is treated quite differently than I. Until they found out I designed and was directing his system install of course.

 

You can see that effect everywhere. I get treated somewhat differently if I drive up someplace in the old Trailblazer or one of the new Jeeps. Or if I show up to an audition in a suit or a pair of jeans. Just human nature I guess.

 

Which dealers are those? I'm assuming you are relaying this from actual experience.

[mav52]

Hi David - I ain't making this stuff up.

 

I was thinking in particular of some Austin dealers who specialize in "ultra high end" and "whole home AV systems." One of my friends is in the $280K system cost range, and he definitely is treated quite differently than I. Until they found out I designed and was directing his system install of course.

 

You can see that effect everywhere. I get treated somewhat differently if I drive up someplace in the old Trailblazer or one of the new Jeeps. Or if I show up to an audition in a suit or a pair of jeans. Just human nature I guess.

 

So true, purchasing power and history of purchasing at a place of business has it's perks. In my case at friends high-end audio shop I can try any cable or piece of equipment he has at home

[spdif-usb]

I have been listening to multichannel music on my new Emotiva UMC-200 via HDMI and IMO you can safely add it to your list of analog sounding DACs. This one's another keeper!

[kiskaprince]

Sorry but Emotive NOOOOOOO

[mav52]

Sorry but Emotive NOOOOOOO

 

Big difference in Emotive Emotive Audio

 

and Emotiva Emotiva Audio Corporation | Rethink High-End

[realhifi]

Hi David - I ain't making this stuff up.

 

I was thinking in particular of some Austin dealers who specialize in "ultra high end" and "whole home AV systems." One of my friends is in the $280K system cost range, and he definitely is treated quite differently than I. Until they found out I designed and was directing his system install of course.

 

You can see that effect everywhere. I get treated somewhat differently if I drive up someplace in the old Trailblazer or one of the new Jeeps. Or if I show up to an audition in a suit or a pair of jeans. Just human nature I guess.

 

Yep. That sounds about right. Once someone has actually purchased and has shown they are serious about being a customer they should be treated differently. I don't mean that to read that if you haven't purchased anything yet that you should be avoided or snubbed but once someone is an actual customer they definately should (and do) get a different treatment. It's not human nature, it's business.

 

By the way, your friend is dropping 280 K!!!! That is stunning and I have never heard of such a purchase in hifi in all the time I have been around the business. Lucky him, lucky hifi shop, lucky manufacturers! Wow.