Opinions Wanted: What is the most Analog Sounding DAC?

[spdif-usb]

I think the only thing left to do to my SL1200 is a new tonearm.

Looks like you need to send Vic an e-mail.

[Robert Hutton]

yes. And another factor: many who degrade digital setups have never heard a good one, as opposed to many on this forum.

 

You are so right about this. You have no idea how many times I have seen people attempting to compensate for bad digital - tube 'buffers' to mask the deficient circuit is the most common one - searching and giving false adoration to early CDs that lack clarity, definition and dynamics because they sound mushy - making judgements on just plain lousy equipment.

 

On the other hand, the same can be said about vinyl. There are both those who falsely claim the superiority of analog because their digital is just plain bad, and those who deny vinyl because of false preconceptions or self validation needs, or who haven't heard a good vinyl setup.

 

The fact as I see it is, in audio it is not an either or situation. I love vinyl, and I listen to it a lot for it's liquid, organic feel. There is no competition between good vinyl and good redbook - the redbook isn't in the same league. But hi-res is a different matter - it is not vinyl and never will be - it has to be appreciated on its own terms, and in that context it is magnificent and I feel very fortunate to have choices and have the ability to enjoy outstanding vinyl and outstanding hi-res.

 

When I hear "best analog sounding DAC" I just about want to scream. That IMO is just SO wrong. I want the best DIGITAL sounding DAC - the one that gives me everything digital has to offer.

[Paul R]

Well, keep screaming then.

 

It's perfectly reasonable to ask about an analog sounding DAC, when you put it into perspective.

 

Roughly based upon price points, most people are going to think vinyl (i.e. "analog") sound is better than the equivalent digital sound. For $1000, you can get vinyl playback that pleases more people better than you can digital. Try it! I had to before I believed it.

 

Take $1000. Spend it on a turntable, cartridge, cables, and an amp/phono preamp. Any way you choose.

 

Then take $1000. Spend it on a computer, a DAC, cables, and an amp with a line input, Any way you choose.

 

Here is a real world example, you may be able to do better:

 

Analog/Vinyl

---------------------------------

$640 Rega RP1 w/Performance Pack and Bias2 Cart

$350 Cambridge Audio Topaz AM10

$010 Cables

---------------------------------------------------------------

 

Digital 1

---------------------------------------------------------------

$599 NuForce DD100 Integrated Amp/Dac

$270 ASUS Netbook from WalMart or Best Buy

$050 JRMC

$030 USB Cable

$050 External USB CD ROM

---------------------------------------------------------------

 

Digital 2

---------------------------------------------------------------

$430 NAD C546BEE CD player

$540 NAD C326BEE amplifier

$030 Interconnects

 

Digital options can use a better sounding amplifier because they don't need a phono amp. If you skip the computer and use a CD player, you are still spending plenty to get a good sounding CD player (and using the DAC in the CD player). Adding a good standalone DAC adds a $300-$700 line item charge in there.

 

Even at $1000, the number of choices in terms of equipment and such is staggering. As you increase the budget, the number of choices gets astronomical. And picking the best sounding choices for an individual in just about any range can be overwhelming. Honestly, to most normal (i.e. non-audiophile folk) a turntable is *simpler* than having to use a computer of any stripe.

 

-Paul

 

You are so right about this. You have no idea how many times I have seen people attempting to compensate for bad digital - tube 'buffers' to mask the deficient circuit is the most common one - searching and giving false adoration to early CDs that lack clarity, definition and dynamics because they sound mushy - making judgements on just plain lousy equipment.

 

On the other hand, the same can be said about vinyl. There are both those who falsely claim the superiority of analog because their digital is just plain bad, and those who deny vinyl because of false preconceptions or self validation needs, or who haven't heard a good vinyl setup.

 

The fact as I see it is, in audio it is not an either or situation. I love vinyl, and I listen to it a lot for it's liquid, organic feel. There is no competition between good vinyl and good redbook - the redbook isn't in the same league. But hi-res is a different matter - it is not vinyl and never will be - it has to be appreciated on its own terms, and in that context it is magnificent and I feel very fortunate to have choices and have the ability to enjoy outstanding vinyl and outstanding hi-res.

 

When I hear "best analog sounding DAC" I just about want to scream. That IMO is just SO wrong. I want the best DIGITAL sounding DAC - the one that gives me everything digital has to offer.

[mav52]

Well, keep screaming then.

 

It's perfectly reasonable to ask about an analog sounding DAC, when you put it into perspective.

 

Roughly based upon price points, most people are going to think vinyl (i.e. "analog") sound is better than the equivalent digital sound. For $1000, you can get vinyl playback that pleases more people better than you can digital. Try it! I had to before I believed it.

 

Take $1000. Spend it on a turntable, cartridge, cables, and an amp/phono preamp. Any way you choose.

 

Then take $1000. Spend it on a computer, a DAC, cables, and an amp with a line input, Any way you choose.

 

Here is a real world example, you may be able to do better:

 

Analog/Vinyl

---------------------------------

$640 Rega RP1 w/Performance Pack and Bias2 Cart

$350 Cambridge Audio Topaz AM10

$010 Cables

---------------------------------------------------------------

 

Digital 1

---------------------------------------------------------------

$599 NuForce DD100 Integrated Amp/Dac

$270 ASUS Netbook from WalMart or Best Buy

$050 JRMC

$030 USB Cable

$050 External USB CD ROM

---------------------------------------------------------------

 

Digital 2

---------------------------------------------------------------

$430 NAD C546BEE CD player

$540 NAD C326BEE amplifier

$030 Interconnects

 

Digital options can use a better sounding amplifier because they don't need a phono amp. If you skip the computer and use a CD player, you are still spending plenty to get a good sounding CD player (and using the DAC in the CD player). Adding a good standalone DAC adds a $300-$700 line item charge in there.

 

Even at $1000, the number of choices in terms of equipment and such is staggering. As you increase the budget, the number of choices gets astronomical. And picking the best sounding choices for an individual in just about any range can be overwhelming. Honestly, to most normal (i.e. non-audiophile folk) a turntable is *simpler* than having to use a computer of any stripe.

 

-Paul

 

Doesn't mean a thing if the equipment is setup or optioned wrong or the room plain sucks regardless if it's vinyl, digital, CD or radio or if you can't really hear a difference regardless of the cost. I've seen high-end equipment sound like pure crap and a simple system sound great...

[Paul R]

Of course, which is one reason why there are so darn many options, every system turns out to be unique, and why, as Barrows says, "everything matters."

There are exceptions to every rule.

 

-Paul

 

 

Doesn't mean a thing if the equipment is setup or optioned wrong or the room plain sucks regardless if it's vinyl, digital, CD or radio or if you can't really hear a difference regardless of the cost. I've seen high-end equipment sound like pure crap and a simple system sound great...

[Robert Hutton]

Well, keep screaming then.

 

It's perfectly reasonable to ask about an analog sounding DAC, when you put it into perspective.

 

Roughly based upon price points, most people are going to think vinyl (i.e. "analog") sound is better than the equivalent digital sound. For $1000, you can get vinyl playback that pleases more people better than you can digital. Try it! I had to before I believed it.

 

Take $1000. Spend it on a turntable, cartridge, cables, and an amp/phono preamp. Any way you choose.

 

Then take $1000. Spend it on a computer, a DAC, cables, and an amp with a line input, Any way you choose.

 

Here is a real world example, you may be able to do better:

 

Analog/Vinyl

---------------------------------

$640 Rega RP1 w/Performance Pack and Bias2 Cart

$350 Cambridge Audio Topaz AM10

$010 Cables

---------------------------------------------------------------

 

Digital 1

---------------------------------------------------------------

$599 NuForce DD100 Integrated Amp/Dac

$270 ASUS Netbook from WalMart or Best Buy

$050 JRMC

$030 USB Cable

$050 External USB CD ROM

---------------------------------------------------------------

 

Digital 2

---------------------------------------------------------------

$430 NAD C546BEE CD player

$540 NAD C326BEE amplifier

$030 Interconnects

 

Digital options can use a better sounding amplifier because they don't need a phono amp. If you skip the computer and use a CD player, you are still spending plenty to get a good sounding CD player (and using the DAC in the CD player). Adding a good standalone DAC adds a $300-$700 line item charge in there.

 

Even at $1000, the number of choices in terms of equipment and such is staggering. As you increase the budget, the number of choices gets astronomical. And picking the best sounding choices for an individual in just about any range can be overwhelming. Honestly, to most normal (i.e. non-audiophile folk) a turntable is *simpler* than having to use a computer of any stripe.

 

-Paul

 

You are telling me about relative value in Audio Equipment?? All 3 systems you list in your hypothetical example (which has nothing to do with what I posted, by the way) together roughly are the cost of the transformers in one of my systems.

 

Of course, it all has nothing whatsoever to do with what I wrote, which is kinda weird.

[Paul R]

(*sigh*) Is this a "mine's bigger than yours" thing you have going? If so, I doubt seriously that every bit of audio equipment you own or have ever ownedeven begins to equal my investment in computer gear. Probably not even what I have invested in music. So what?

 

But yes, it did have a lot to do with what you said. I don't believe that suggesting a DAC at a specific price point can have an "analog" sound is in any way misleading or as you suggest, something to make you scream. You do, and that is your opinion. Thank you for sharing it.

 

Even given that, out of politeness to most people here, I thinkg 'Musicality' and other terms that have been suggested obliquely approach the same meaning as well as "analog", and I am not opposed to using them in the interest of politeness.

 

 

 

You are telling me about relative value in Audio Equipment?? All 3 systems you list in your hypothetical example (which has nothing to do with what I posted, by the way) together roughly are the cost of the transformers in one of my systems.

 

Of course, it all has nothing whatsoever to do with what I wrote, which is kinda weird.

[Purite Audio]

I can't think of any dac that can even begin to approach the inter modulation distortion of vinyl , let alone tracking and tracing distortion .

Keith.

[Robert Hutton]

I can't think of any dac that can even begin to approach the inter modulation distortion of vinyl , let alone tracking and tracing distortion .

Keith.

 

LOL. Exactly my point.

 

I could build him one. We'll get really cheap, lousy caps and a very noisy power supply, and raise the noise floor. Make sure there is a high jitter rate. Add a tube buffer grafted on to the output to warm it up - say a single 12AU7 - they always sound mushy. We could even make it so the DAC cuts out after 50% of the tunes and makes him get up to re-start it - just like a turntable!

 

But then again, he'll want 70% off retail....

[Paul R]

I can not think of a turntable that has all the filter artifacts and brickwall filters of most DACs either. Let alone the USB jitter errors! That can make Wow and Flutter look pretty meaningless.

-Paul

 

 

 

I can't think of any dac that can even begin to approach the inter modulation distortion of vinyl , let alone tracking and tracing distortion .

Keith.

[Paul R]

Wow- with that much attitude, it doesn't surprise me you wind up paying retail or more for everything. I'm surprised people would even do business with you.

 

By the way, nothing electronic "always" sounds any particular way, it always depends upon who designed and built it, though I will grant that certain designs and chips are often implemented the same way and tend to present similar voices.

 

-Paul

 

 

LOL. Exactly my point.

 

I could build him one. We'll get really cheap, lousy caps and a very noisy power supply, and raise the noise floor. Make sure there is a high jitter rate. Add a tube buffer grafted on to the output to warm it up - say a single 12AU7 - they always sound mushy. We could even make it so the DAC cuts out after 50% of the tunes and makes him get up to re-start it - just like a turntable!

 

But then again, he'll want 70% off retail....

[bhobba]

Bill can I ask what DSD DAC's have you compared to the Chord ? since I'm shopping for a new DAC for another system

 

My Playback Designs MPD3. It's better than the Chord without an upgraded power supply although that was from memory and not a direct comparison. I would do it but I think its unfair until I get my battery power supply for the Chord which is being built right now and the guy has the Chord anyway to make sure it works properly with what he comes up with.

 

It is generally thought by many that the Playback Designs is probably the best DSD DAC out there.

 

Thanks

Bill

[bhobba]

Much as it feels like picking at a sore tooth, I have lately begun to think that Teresa might have had something with saying CD resolution sound "hurt her ears." Maybe she had something there and just could not explain it in a reasonable sense. I wonder how she feels about DSD?

 

Mate having demoed my stuff to all sorts of people I can assure you there are some that hear a digital edge to stuff. I would normally say its probably BS and would disappear if done blind except for an interesting experience I had. One of those guys also head an edge on MAC 501's - I and others couldn't hear it - but he claimed he could - and even knew the reason - its a push pull with one side having an inverter so its not quite symmetrical and you hear it as an edge. What happened is I compared the MAC to my Arion HS-500 that had been upgraded to Duelund VSF Copper for the coupling between its valve input stage and digital output stage. It was clearly and obviously better than the MAC's - which aren't easy - its one fine amp - but in comparison I heard the edge clear as a bell. Because of that I am willing to give such people the benefit of the doubt and think they hear stuff we would if we were to compare it to gear that didn't have the issue.

 

Thanks

Bill

[bhobba]

I can't think of any dac that can even begin to approach the inter modulation distortion of vinyl , let alone tracking and tracing distortion .

 

I know people who have compared the original master tape to a DSD rip they did on an EXTREMELY transparent system. It was one of those really over the top tape machines used by the Tape Project guys - its a really hotted up master tape deck that one guy I know that has one paid $60k for - at least that's what I was told. I have heard it and it blows any other source I have heard out of the water. They thought they could hear a very slight difference - but were unsure - they dont think they could pick it blind.

 

Others I know did a slightly different test - again on an EXTREMELY transparent system they did a DSD rip from from the tape using one of those machines but this time used special high quality software to convert it to bog standard 44.1 16 bit. They then used a Killer DAC (you guys probably don't know this DAC but its a really up there DAC) to replay it. Now this was a separate test to the one playing DSD so I don't know how it compared to that but they claim you could hear a difference but it was very close - in fact if you had to pick it blind on a few minutes listening they would not like to bet their life on it.

 

To me this points the finger squarely at the quality of DAC's that is responsible for people not liking digital.

 

Thanks

Bill

[mav52]

No. The analog DAC is "trickle down" cheaper version of the DAC IV. Have not heared the "analog DAC" technology.

 

Cheaper alright and starting at $7,000 and all MSB DAC products which are now DSD. Paul order one and give us a little test and tell us how it compares to analog. Your wife shouldn't care. Heck you can lease it for $164.00 a month.

[Paul R]

Sorry friend - no can do unless they come up with a try and buy program!

 

I do understand they sound darn good though. Not sure how much of the price is in the build and how much is just name/marketing, but everyone I know who has heard one thought highly of it.

 

-Paul

 

 

Cheaper alright and starting at $7,000 and all MSB DAC products which are now DSD. Paul order one and give us a little test and tell us how it compares to analog. Your wife shouldn't care. Heck you can lease it for $164.00 a month.

[Paul R]

Here is part of my thinking - DSD is, by it's very nature, more "analog" than it is digital, at least, I think of it that way. The few DSD DACs I have gotten time and opportunity to listen to blow away most of the comparable PCM DACS I have heard. (IMO, YMMV, etc.)

 

I suppose this is because DSD is just a pure stream of ones and zeros, and it doesn't take much tech to turn that into music, as opposed to PCM samples at least.

 

In short, DSD DACs seem to have the "analog" sound in them, musicality, or whatever it is. I'm kind of wondering if other people are hearing that too.

 

Mmm- just out of curiosity- anyone tried converting PCM to DSD to see how it sounds?

 

-Paul

[maelob]

I am enjoying reading all the posts! i think i would like to get an analog computer. Lol

[realhifi]

.

 

Others I know did a slightly different test - again on an EXTREMELY transparent system they did a DSD rip from from the tape using one of those machines but this time used special high quality software to convert it to bog standard 44.1 16 bit. They then used a Killer DAC (you guys probably don't know this DAC but its a really up there DAC) to replay it. Now this was a separate test to the one playing DSD so I don't know how it compared to that but they claim you could hear a difference but it was very close - in fact if you had to pick it blind on a few minutes listening they would not like to bet their life on it.

 

To me this points the finger squarely at the quality of DAC's that is responsible for people not liking digital.

 

Thanks

Bill

 

I agree.

[mav52]

Paul so how are you liking the Benchmark HGC ?

 

How analog does it sound ?

[Paul R]

I haven't decided what my opinion about it is, yet. Sometimes it sounds glorious, other times, not so much. Letting it burn in another hundred hours before I settle into serious listening. Analog sounds very very fine through it.

 

-Paul

 

Paul so how are you liking the Benchmark HGC ?

 

How analog does it sound ?

[mav52]

I haven't decided what my opinion about it is, yet. Sometimes it sounds glorious, other times, not so much. Letting it burn in another hundred hours before I settle into serious listening. Analog sounds very very fine through it.

 

-Paul

Thanks Paul

[ringenesherre]

To me this points the finger squarely at the quality of DAC's that is responsible for people not liking digital.

 

I personally would draw two other conclusions:

 

1.

Even when playing back the original master tapes directly, telling people the signal gors through an ADDA loop would cause some people to hear digital artifacts.

 

2. Good transparent equipment is exactly that - transparent. Take a Lynx Hilo, for example.

[realhifi]

I haven't decided what my opinion about it is, yet. Sometimes it sounds glorious, other times, not so much. Letting it burn in another hundred hours before I settle into serious listening. Analog sounds very very fine through it.

 

-Paul

 

Another 100 hrs.? You must have the best dealer in the USA. Didn't the dealer have a unit that was burned in as a demo?

When I loan equipment on trial out it is usually for a weekend, much like our local BMW dealer does with their cars to prospective customers.

[Paul R]

It's on a 30 day trial David. Open to everyone to do the same thing, so long as you give em a credit card!

 

Actually, I don't have a local dealer who sells Benchmark stuff. Which in a way is a good thing I suppose. Even burned in, I am not sure I could decide if I want to live with it over a weekend. Most other people probably could I suppose, but it takes me a while to train my ears to believe what they hear. Just old and slow I guess.

 

-Paul

 

P.S. That is most especially true if there is something or another that I am uncomfortable or ambivalent about with a hunk of gear. Or especially if I like a piece of gear, but putting it in the system means changing another component for synergy or whatever. Besides, letting it play on the office system 24x7 burns it in rather well and cleanly.

 

P.P.S - Hey that brings up a good question though - what would you dealers rather do, loan something for a short period of time, or sell something with right to return?

 

P.P.P.S - or like a couple guys in the Philly area, lease the store owned equipment out for 30 days for a couple hundred bucks? With cheap insurance incase of damage. I really like that model myself.

 

Another 100 hrs.? You must have the best dealer in the USA. Didn't the dealer have a unit that was burned in as a demo?

When I loan equipment on trial out it is usually for a weekend, much like our local BMW dealer does with their cars to prospective customers.