"Vinyl on CD"?

[Julf]

As with Julf , I will not be further responding to your posts in this area. It is siimply a waste of time as both of you are more interested in trying to score points than finding out the truth.

THAT Julf, s a FACT.

 

No it is not. As you well know, that is a claim based on your subjective opinion.

[mav52]

Unreal darn near every thread always ends up with some counterproductive mumbo jumbo and it appears it never ends. Makes one wonder is computer audio nothing more than a bunch of gumpy men with some sort of complex of audio superiority that they must constantly prove or assert upon others. That's the internet for ya.

[Audio_ELF]

Unreal darn near every thread always ends up with some counterproductive mumbo jumbo and it appears it never ends. Makes one wonder is computer audio nothing more than a bunch of gumpy men with some sort of complex of audio superiority that they must constantly prove or assert upon others. That's the internet for ya.

You're wrong... there's a grumpy woman too!

[Julf]

You're wrong... there's a grumpy woman too!

 

And don't forget the grumpy old markov chains...

[esldude]

There's a very cool feature in the latest version of XXHighEnd called 'playback drive'. Essentially this will copy the music data from wherever it sits to an 'empty and formatted' HDD/SSD/stick before commencing the playback routine. So it's easy to have a number of different drives sitting in the PC (I have 4 different types) that can be chosen as the playback drive with the press of a button. And you know what? They all sound different!

 

Ever tried putting two identical drives in your PC and see if those sound different. Identical drives in both hardware and having been cloned to contain the same data.

 

You seem to be saying the same thing as Alex or a close variation. Software copies a file from different places, puts it on a selected clean playback stick, presumably the file is exactly the same bits being played back from the same clean location by the same hardware and sounds different depending on what drive it came from. Frankly, I don't believe it to be possible.

 

There would appear to be no difference in your hardware, and no difference in the file. By what manner is the origination being conveyed downstream? And yes, it could happen and you could hear it without being able to explain it. But the old saw about extraordinary claims requiring extraordinary proof.....

 

I have tried to hear differences with Alex's files. I have ABX'd them with Foobar, listened to them in the background or foreground in a casual manner repeatedly, and in none of those situations have I found a difference. Alex at one point sent me files which had been made genuinely different and without knowing what was done I correctly differentiated between them so I can discern some things.

 

So I would be interested in whether not cloned drives also sound different to you using playback drive via XXHighend.

[manisandher]

But the old saw about extraordinary claims requiring extraordinary proof.....

 

I'm not interested in proving anything to anyone. I'm happy to share what I hear though, but if it doesn't rock your boat, no probs, just ignore it and move on.

 

Mani.

 

EDIT: No, I don't think I'm saying what Alex is/was saying. He was talking about how the files were ripped, I'm talking about how they're played back.

[Jud]

There's a very cool feature in the latest version of XXHighEnd called 'playback drive'. Essentially this will copy the music data from wherever it sits to an 'empty and formatted' HDD/SSD/stick before commencing the playback routine. So it's easy to have a number of different drives sitting in the PC (I have 4 different types) that can be chosen as the playback drive with the press of a button. And you know what? They all sound different!

 

Ever tried putting two identical drives in your PC and see if those sound different. Identical drives in both hardware and having been cloned to contain the same data.

 

You seem to be saying the same thing as Alex or a close variation. Software copies a file from different places, puts it on a selected clean playback stick, presumably the file is exactly the same bits being played back from the same clean location by the same hardware and sounds different depending on what drive it came from. Frankly, I don't believe it to be possible.

 

There would appear to be no difference in your hardware, and no difference in the file.

 

Strange. What I took from Mani's statement is the same thing that Eloise did (see #41 above), and pretty much the opposite of what you and Alex understood (who knew? - you guys apparently think just alike).

 

Simply put, I thought Mani was saying different hardware (SSDs vs. sticks vs. HDDs - and at least regarding SSDs and HDDs, different items within the same hardware categories) sounded different.

[esldude]

I'm not interested in proving anything to anyone. I'm happy to share what I hear though, but if it doesn't rock your boat, no probs, just ignore it and move on.

 

Mani.

 

No problem, can do and will do.

 

Funny how those that hear this unlikely effect seem allergic to proving it.

[manisandher]

Simply put, I thought Mani was saying different hardware (SSDs vs. sticks vs. HDDs - and at least regarding SSDs and HDDs, different items within the same hardware categories) sounded different.

 

Yep, that's what I was saying.

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

Funny how those that hear this unlikely effect seem allergic to proving it.

 

What 'unlikely effect'? That an identical file played back from different drives (hard-drives, solid-state drives, pen-drives, etc) sounds different?

 

Mani.

[esldude]

Strange. What I took from Mani's statement is the same thing that Eloise did (see #41 above), and pretty much the opposite of what you and Alex understood (who knew? - you guys apparently think just alike).

 

Simply put, I thought Mani was saying different hardware (SSDs vs. sticks vs. HDDs - and at least regarding SSDs and HDDs, different items within the same hardware categories) sounded different.

 

Perhaps I misunderstood his description of what playback drive does. It seemed initially he was saying it sounded different played back from different drives in his machine. I think that not highly likely, but there are some possible ways that could happen. Different drives make different demands on the PSU, generate different noise signatures, those get propagate through to the DAC or some other part of the playback chain and make a difference in sound.

 

But if I didn't get it wrong, he then said XXHighend had a feature called playback drive. This feature took a file, copied to a clean memory stick, and then played back that file. And he could hear upon playback that each of 4 drives in his CD sounded different. Assuming the files are the same, XXHighend copies them the same and they are played from the same memory stick where is there the potential for a difference? We are back to identical files, played back on identical software and hardware sounding different depending on where those identical files originated.

 

I don't see how as there is nothing in files to carry such information or to be effected by anything that has gone on before if they are bit for bit identical and played back the same exact way.

 

I would like for manisandher to have tried it from two cloned drives to see if he still hears a difference. Would not prove anything one way or the other, but I would be interested in whether they still sound different to him or not. But he doesn't have any need or obligation to do so. Nor I to simply trust in his ears for such an improbable result.

[esldude]

What 'unlikely effect'? That an identical file played back from different drives (hard-drives, solid-state drives, pen-drives, etc) sounds different?

 

Mani.

 

Did I misunderstand the playback drive? I may have. Are you saying played from the same memory stick you can hear where the file on the memory stick was copied from (which of your 4 drives) or are you saying copying to a memory stick it sounds different from playing directly from the drives themselves?

[manisandher]

No, you're bang on below:

 

It seemed initially he was saying it sounded different played back from different drives in his machine. I think that not highly likely, but there are some possible ways that could happen. Different drives make different demands on the PSU, generate different noise signatures, those get propagate through to the DAC or some other part of the playback chain and make a difference in sound.

 

In my case, a file is ripped from a CD to a dedicated music HDD. I have an HDD with the OS and software player on it, and two other empty and formatted drives... so 4 hard-drives in total in the PC. I can tell XX which drive to copy the file to just before it starts its playback routine. So I can play the file back directly from the dedicated music HDD, the OS HDD, or one of the two empty HDDs. And the sound changes depending on which drive I choose.

 

Why? Well I think your explanation is as plausible as any.

 

Mani.

[esldude]

No, you're bang on below:

 

 

 

In my case, a file is ripped from a CD to a dedicated music HDD. I have an HDD with the OS and software player on it, and two other empty and formatted drives... so 4 hard-drives in total in the PC. I can tell XX which drive to copy the file to just before it starts its playback routine. So I can play the file back directly from the dedicated music HDD, the OS HDD, or one of the two empty HDDs. And the sound changes depending on which drive I choose.

 

Why? Well I think your explanation is as plausible as any.

 

Mani.

 

Alright, well that is different than what Alex talks about then. You aren't hearing hard drive signatures when the file is moved somewhere else. You are hearing them as they play from different locations. There are ways that could be going on without requiring some new and unknown unexplainable effect.

 

Sorry for my misunderstanding.

[ringenesherre]

Alright, well that is different than what Alex talks about then. You aren't hearing hard drive signatures when the file is moved somewhere else. You are hearing them as they play from different locations. There are ways that could be going on without requiring some new and unknown unexplainable effect.

 

The latter is indeed possible (for at least some playback chains). The former, though, can be ruled out 100%. And that is a fact.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[The Computer Audiophile]

Funny how those that hear this unlikely effect seem allergic to proving it.

 

Dennis - This is not Hydrogen Audio nor an AES conference. Those interested in proving something are certainly welcome to do so, but only with like minded individuals here or elsewhere. Thus, CA readers simply sharing opinions are experiences must not be accosted or belittled at every turn for enjoying this hobby sans scientific proof in which you accept.

 

Please respect the atmosphere here at CA. It's far different from HA.

[Jud]

The latter is indeed possible (for at least some playback chains). The former, though, can be ruled out 100%. And that is a fact.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Peter, I'm not suggesting I'm ready to believe in any such effect, but the science lover in me wants to be cautious before ruling out anything "100%," with the flat conclusion "that is a fact." I'm cautious because of prior experience with such apparently nonsensical claims as sonic differences from green magic marker on the edges of CDs having been experimentally demonstrated. So I would prefer to say I haven't yet been able to think of any way to support what Alex has talked about. (I raised issues such as drive fragmentation in a previous thread here, but I think we managed to satisfy ourselves that fragmentation at least would not work as an explanation.)

[esldude]

Dennis - This is not Hydrogen Audio nor an AES conference. Those interested in proving something are certainly welcome to do so, but only with like minded individuals here or elsewhere. Thus, CA readers simply sharing opinions are experiences must not be accosted or belittled at every turn for enjoying this hobby sans scientific proof in which you accept.

 

Please respect the atmosphere here at CA. It's far different from HA.

 

I have very rarely taken part in anything at HA. I do find it interesting that you hurl it about so much as some kind of contrast. Or almost as an insult at times.

 

And I don't require scientific proof at every turn. Even here where I asked about it, I am in no position to require it. I also am in no position to have to accept everything thing put forth by someone. Some things aren't worth accepting. Somehow I am not supposed to voice my skepticism when I have it, while keeping a congenial atmosphere to post any kind of thing anyone wants. Okay, fine. I don't post skeptically or inquiringly every time something raises those issues anyway.

 

Your desired atmosphere will be preserved.

[TimArruda]

Somehow I am not supposed to voice my skepticism when I have it, while keeping a congenial atmosphere to post any kind of thing anyone wants.

 

Dennis,

 

I don't know anything about Hydrogen Audio, and I certainly will not claim to speak for Chris. Having said that, from my perspective I don't believe it has anything to do with voicing skepticism. I would point to the following comment.

 

Funny how those that hear this unlikely effect seem allergic to proving it.

 

Voicing your skepticism is one thing, but the above quote goes beyond that. Not only do you voice your skepticism, but then go on to call out anyone who happens to to hear the referenced "effect" because they won't prove it. I believe that is where you went wrong, at least in my opinion.

 

Tim

[esldude]

Thanks Tim,

 

Yeah, that comment you point to was a bit of frustration on my part.

[sandyk]

In my case, a file is ripped from a CD to a dedicated music HDD. I have an HDD with the OS and software player on it,

and two other empty and formatted drives... so 4 hard-drives in total in the PC. I can tell XX which drive to copy the file to just

before it starts its playback routine. So I can play the file back directly from the dedicated music HDD, the OS HDD,

or one of the two empty HDDs. And the sound changes depending on which drive I choose.

 

I have the same tracks stored on 2 different HDDs other than the OS HDD, as well as on Corsair Voyager GT USB 2.0 memory sticks.

All have been verified as having identical check sums. I play them from the different locations using cPlay which plays them from

System memory. Like Mani I can hear the differences between the same files stored at the different locations.

The .wav file stored on the Corsair Voyager with it's +5V Linear PSU sounds quite a bit better than either HDD,

with the 1TB HDD sounding slightly worse than that on a much older 320GB HDD. Earlier this year,I also demonstrated the audible

differences on a friend's new Windows 7 PC between a Corsair Voyager plugged directly into a USB port ,

and the same Corsair Voyager powered by the +5V Linear PSU. All 5 present at that listening session with gear such as the PWT,

Oppo 95, and W4s, reported hearing marked differences between both methods with the Corsair plugged into the +5V Linear PSU

being preferred.I have already stated that I am more than happy to demonstrate these things directly to any interested

C.A. members from Sydney. It is far easier to demonstrate these things directly than argue about them.

There will also be a qualified Sydney E.E. present at our next listening session (SWMBO permitting) at my friend's place on

the 19-20th of October, where our DIY gear will be also compared with/and via $14K of Marantz preamp and Power Amplifier.

 

Alex

[ringenesherre]

Peter, I'm not suggesting I'm ready to believe in any such effect, but the science lover in me wants to be cautious before ruling out anything "100%," with the flat conclusion "that is a fact." I'm cautious because of prior experience with such apparently nonsensical claims as sonic differences from green magic marker on the edges of CDs having been experimentally demonstrated. So I would prefer to say I haven't yet been able to think of any way to support what Alex has talked about. (I raised issues such as drive fragmentation in a previous thread here, but I think we managed to satisfy ourselves that fragmentation at least would not work as an explanation.)

 

You are right, Jud. I was not formulating as precisely as I should have.

 

Two bit-identical files played back from the same physical device, same location on it, and same fragmentation cannot sound differently due to some systematic difference. That is indeed a fact.

 

Of course, any of these assumptions being violated (e.g. different locations) could theoretically allow for differences on playback.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[The Computer Audiophile]

You are right, Jud. I was not formulating as precisely as I should have.

 

Two bit-identical files played back from the same physical device, same location on it, and same fragmentation cannot sound differently due to some systematic difference. That is indeed a fact.

 

Of course, any of these assumptions being violated (e.g. different locations) could theoretically allow for differences on playback.

 

Cheers,

Peter

Hi Peter - It would also be nice to know if the subjective differences heard playing identical files are the same differences every time or if different things are heard each time. If the same thing can be heard every time that's one thing. But, if the differences are different some of the time I'd say this opens the door to much more going on than simply a hard drive. There are many components inside a computer and running on the OS. Maybe focusing on the drive is a red herring.

 

My stance is that given the evidence to date and my understanding of computer science two identical files (MD5 checksum or whatever) can't sound different if all else is equal. I'm even willing to say if all else is not equal, but the list of items that are not equal would probably take this thread even more off course.

[ringenesherre]

My stance is that given the evidence to date and my understanding of computer science two identical files (MD5 checksum or whatever) can't sound different if all else is equal. I'm even willing to say if all else is not equal, but the list of items that are not equal would probably take this thread even more off course.

 

Yes, Chris. That sums it up pretty nicely.

 

On a side note, while the chance for a randomly occurring hash collision is small with MD5, there is a 100% reliable simple way of checking that two files are identical. On Mac and Linux, use the built-in diff command on the two files. On Windows fc (file compare) is your friend. Just a nitpick, but I wonder why people that usually give attention to the smallest detail use a potentially unreliable method for checking whether two files are the same ;-)

 

Cheers,

Peter

[sandyk]

Just a nitpick, but I wonder why people that usually give attention to the smallest detail use a potentially unreliable method for checking whether two files are the same ;-)

Peter

In my case, and undoubtedly others, what makes you think that hasn't been done numerous times previously, as well as with the more robust SHA256 etc ?

Also many hours spent using SoundForge 9 to try and pinpoint differences.

Alex