"Vinyl on CD"?

[Paul R]

Yes, Chris. That sums it up pretty nicely.

 

On a side note, while the chance for a randomly occurring hash collision is small with MD5, there is a 100% reliable simple way of checking that two files are identical. On Mac and Linux, use the built-in diff command on the two files. On Windows fc (file compare) is your friend. Just a nitpick, but I wonder why people that usually give attention to the smallest detail use a potentially unreliable method for checking whether two files are the same ;-)

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Well that has more to do with the internet than anything else. You can certainly do a bit for bit compare on any two files on a local machine, but it gets more difficult when the original file is on a remote machine a couple thousand miles away. This was especially true when you had to confevt binary files to Ascii and transmit them via email in several chunks over a modem. Perhaps over several modem hops... Rutgers!bigbird!sylvester!paul, etc.

 

Even todays network transmissions have been known to screw up files.

 

Paul

[mav52]

You're wrong... there's a grumpy woman too!

you mean there is a woman here !

[ringenesherre]

This was especially true when you had to confevt binary files to Ascii and transmit them via email in several chunks over a modem. Perhaps over several modem hops... Rutgers!bigbird!sylvester!paul, etc.

 

I had almost forgotten the good old times of 2400 baud modem connections, where sometimes text could be read at the speed it was downloaded. That, and zmodem :-)

 

Cheers,

Peter

[ringenesherre]

Peter

In my case, and undoubtedly others, what makes you think that hasn't been done numerous times previously, as well as with the more robust SHA256 etc ?

Also many hours spent using SoundForge 9 to try and pinpoint differences.

Alex

 

Dear Alex,

 

nothing makes me think so. I was just referring to Chris' mention of MD5. I assume you checked the file in every way possible. And if they are identical, they are identical and there is no hidden information (unless you count operating system meta data, e.g., time stamps etc.).

 

Cheers,

Peter

[The Computer Audiophile]

I actually use a program called File Hash with all kinds of options.

 

[spdif-usb]

I actually use a program called File Hash with all kinds of options.

 

Which one of those do you think sounds best? hehe

[Audio_ELF]

Which one of those do you think sounds best? hehe

SHA-256 definitely... Just whispered slowly, extending the a. Sounds wonderful to me :-)

[spdif-usb]

SHA-256 definitely... Just whispered slowly, extending the a. Sounds wonderful to me :-)

You picked the 8th one on the list. The astrolophiles say 8 is my lucky number!

[Sik_Lescinovid]

I actually use a program called File Hash with all kinds of options.

This is rather silly if you're trying to determine whether to files are equal since none of the given options is deterministic, at least from what I can tell

[sandyk]

I use ExactFile which has 18 different types of checks.

Have fun with your childish smart arse comments, but none of you have been able to explain why Mani and many other XXHE users are able to hear clear differences between .wav files on different HDDs etc.

There is still a lot to be learned about Computer Audio.

[Paul R]

Chill Alex! It is an apparent paradox. You and others can hear a difference, but the files are without question, identical digitally. Duh- we don't have enough information about something, and when we do, it will all make sense. But a lot of good people have hit that one and bounced.

 

To be honest, I do not believe it has anything to do with the power supply or how it was ripped. The data *is* identical, no errors. That is about as hard a fact as one can imagine. And being so, the digital data having anything whatsoever to do with the files sounding different can be solidly ruled out.

 

Granting you, and others, do hear a difference. I'm betting that difference absolutely has to be caused by something in the playback chain. The probability it has anything at all do with the power supply on the ripper is lower than a snake's underbelly.

 

But in any case, it isn't something to feud about, it is something to put on deck as a mystery and keep plugging till an answer comes out. Now if some low down dirty sap sucking varmint calls you a liar for saying you can hear a difference, then I think that might be worth a little effort expended.

 

Haven't seen that though. Hope I never do.

 

Now as for the files sounding different when played from different hard drives, yeah. That's not only possible, it is even probable. Way too many uncontrolled factors to rule that out. But that is, again, in the playback chain. You can definitely get time domain smearing and other issues, same as over a USB line. Not usually to the same degree, but yeah, it is there. Especially with serially attached drives (SATA, SAS, etc.) And the power supply or supplies involved make a very big difference. But again, this is the playback chain.

 

-Paul

[sandyk]

Granting you, and others, do hear a difference. I'm betting that difference absolutely has to be caused by something in the playback chain. The probability it has anything at all do with the power supply on the ripper is lower than a snake's underbelly.

Paul

First off, there was the insinuation that these differences were not fully evaluated by anything more than MD5 checks.

That was an unecessary dig at everybody who presents subjective reports as being either slack, incompetent, or delusional.

Tell that to Martin Colloms who is vastly more experienced, and qualified, in evaluating Audio equipment than almost anybody here, including Chris, who is undoubtedly more experienced in the actual data side of things, but far less experienced in evaluating audio equipment .

Then there are the 6 separate Blind listening sessions that many of you guys dismiss as BS, based purely on theory and not done the way YOU would have wanted them to be done, just like several have done with the admittedly poorly presented .flac vs. wav articles in T.A.S.

Yet once again, some of you are playing the man, instead of looking at the overall picture as presented by Mani, Forrest and many others. I also wonder why the Phasure DAC has yet to be fully reviewed in C.A. Perhaps if more people had an opprtunity to listen to one, they might be able to also confirm what many XXHE members have reported.

No, I am not a member of XXHE forum .

Alex

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"If you can't hear the difference between an original CD and a copy of your CD, you might as well give up your career as a tester. The difference between a reconstituted FLAC and full size WAV is much less than that, but it does exist."-Cookie Marenco. cookiemarenco.com "

[sandyk]

Now as for the files sounding different when played from different hard drives, yeah. That's not only possible, it is even probable. Way too many uncontrolled factors to rule that out.

 

Just a reminder that these files , although stored on different HDDs, are still being played from System Memory, NOT directly from their original locations.

[Paul R]

Perhaps so. Just more of a puzzle. But just as it is a fact you and others can hear a difference, it is also a solid fact the files are digitally identical. They files have exactly the same data in them.

 

See the paradox?

 

That just means we don't have enough data. While I grant you it is possible that the ripper power supply might make a difference, it is unlikely. Extremely unlikely. When you copy the files, it becomes several orders of magnitude more unlikely that anything in the source could make a difference.

 

I'm not saying you do not hear a difference - I am just saying I cannot accept the reason you set to explain the difference. That's a personal judgement by the way, applies only to me.

 

I can easily see how activating or using differnent hardware in a system could affect the sound of a digital music stream, but I still bet that effect is applied during playback, not at creation time.

 

Try as I might, I can find nothing at all that would explain why digital data would inherently sound different due to the power supply used in the creation process. I can tell the difference between a CD and a digital file pretty easily, even a RIP from a CD compared against the original CD. I can explain that roughly as different components in the playback chain.

 

Same is true if I use different players, or read the file from different media, or ... well, you get the idea.

 

-Paul

 

Just a reminder that these files , although stored on different HDDs, are still being played from System Memory, NOT directly from their original locations.

[ringenesherre]

First off, there was the insinuation that these differences were not fully evaluated by anything more than MD5 checks.

That was an unecessary dig at everybody who presents subjective reports as being either slack, incompetent, or delusional.

 

Dear Alex,

 

take it easy. I was not trying to dig at anyone, just pointing out that I find the use of hashes funny (and a little ununderstandable) for comparing two local files. Nothing more was intended.

 

Tell that to Martin Colloms who is vastly more experienced, and qualified, in evaluating Audio equipment than almost anybody here, including Chris, who is undoubtedly more experienced in the actual data side of things, but far less experienced in evaluating audio equipment .

 

If Martin is less experienced in the data side of things than Chris, why should we care for his opinion when it comes to things that lie entirely on the data side?

 

Peace, brother!

 

Cheers,

Peter

[ringenesherre]

Try as I might, I can find nothing at all that would explain why digital data would inherently sound different due to the power supply used in the creation process. I can tell the difference between a CD and a digital file pretty easily, even a RIP from a CD compared against the original CD. I can explain that roughly as different components in the playback chain.

 

If the digital data is stored in a normal file on any normal mainstream operating system (which I very much assume we are talking about), there can be no influence of the power supply (or any other component during recording) left as an artifact IF the two files are identical. The latter premise we have established.

 

That said, once we start playing back these beasts, there might be differences. Just not any that are systematically due to playing one or the other file.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Cheers,

Peter

[sandyk]

If Martin is less experienced in the data side of things than Chris, why should we care for his opinion when it comes to things that lie entirely on the data side?

Peter

We are talking about Martin playing back those files as analogue from a Naim Unitiserve, after having confirmed that the .wav files still had identical check sums after being downloaded to the same area, and again after both files were saved to a USB memory stick.

They were no longer in the digital domain at that stage, yet they sounded different.

So yes, the gear that Martin is using and his experience in listening over many years as a reviewer, as well as an Acoustic Consultant, should give him an advantage when evaluating analogue playhback. Add to that the fact that he had already heard the original masters of the "Dire Straits-Love Over Gold" album, which would further help him identify any audible differences.Although not the only tracks used for comparison purposes, they were the ones used at all 6 listening sessions.

He also identifed the clear differences with a 24/96 track from the Claire Martin album "Too Darn Hot."

 

Paul

My comment did of course refer to Mani's report, not something from me.Mani was playing those files from system memory Understandably, Mani does not wish to get drawn into pointless arguments about what he and other Phasure NOS DAC, and XXHE software users are reporting.

Alex

[ringenesherre]

Peter

We are talking about Martin playing back those files as analogue from a Naim Unitiserve, after having confirmed that the .wav files still had identical check sums after being downloaded to the same area, and again after both files were saved to a USB memory stick.

They were no longer in the digital domain at that stage, yet they sounded different.

 

I gathered as much. Just as Paul, I just think that attributing the perceived differences to something that happened with the files before playback lacks any plausibility.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[sandyk]

I gathered as much. Just as Paul, I just think that attributing the perceived differences to something that happened with the files before playback lacks any plausibility.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Fine. Suggest some other scenario, how not only Martin, but other recipients (including a few C.A. members) of the same uploaded comparisons DL files reported very similar findings through very different equipment,(including the OS) and nominated the same file as sounding considerably better, despite not knowing the origins of the files, as their names were chosen not to give that information.

[sandyk]

This is becoming a lot like the movie "Groundhog Day" that I mentioned elsewhere recently.

I will leave the "Armchair Experts" to it before Admin reprimands me for endless repetition.

Alex

[Paul R]

Fine. Suggest some other scenario, how not only Martin, but other recipients (including a few C.A. members) of the same uploaded comparisons DL files reported very similar findings through very different equipment,(including the OS) and nominated the same file as sounding considerably better, despite not knowing the origins of the files, as their names were chosen not to give that information.

 

I don't dispute that Alex, I am sure it is true. I just said I am unable to find any operator that would account for it by any physical means I know of. I can find operators in the playback chain. Mani's experience, like yours, is an undisputed data point, but one that is devilishly difficult to explain. There is a reason or reasons that will explain it, and that reason or set of reasons will not be supernatural. I personally do not know what it it is, but I have reservations it involes the power supply t the time the file is created. Especially after those files are copied or transmitted. That last point is what makes it so very unlikely, especially if transmitted over the internet.

 

The data is copied and transformed so many times, only preserving the digital data, having nothing at all to do with the original data file... Nothing whatsoever of any attributes of the original physical file is preserved, save the digital information when the file is reconstructed at the remote end. Your power supply theory needs to provide some operator that is transmitted with the data. I cannot find one, despite devoting some serious free time to it. Does not mean it isn't there, just that I personally find it unlikely, and think the reason you hear a difference lies in the playback domain.

 

Paul

[sandyk]

but I have reservations it involes the power supply t the time the file is created. Especially after those files are copied or transmitted. That last point is what makes it so very unlikely, especially if transmitted over the internet.

Paul

I have done extensive testing over a period of several years using various PSU implementations with quite a few people, and they all heard clear differences between them . I can even make .wav files sound far too detailed and fatigueing quite readily.(REALLY!!)

Initial experiments involved using a simple USB isolator as published by Silicon Chip magazine , to feed a USB memory stick.It used tantalum and ceramic bypass capacitors on the 7805 voltage regulator, It sounded as described.

A later earlier version used normal audio type capacitors (electros etc.) around the 7805 voltage regulator.

C.A. member "Silverlight" (Geoff) from NYC was "my ears" for those intial tests, and reported that the same track then sounded much better.Geoff even exchanged a rip of a Norah Jones track with me from the same album, and surprisingly our checksums were identical. Geoff reported back that my uploaded rip sounded better than his own rip.

Later PSU variations and the resulting improvements over a period of time were verified by Elcorso (Roch), John Kenny, and Marcin from jPlay as well as Martin Colloms and quite a few Rock Grotto members. I remarked at the time to Martin Colloms that this shouldn't be happening with digital, but is what you would expect from analogue.

I intend revisiting that original USB isolator to see if that makes the differences with low noise external PSUs more obvious to Mac users ! (tongue stuck out).

So stick that in your pipe and smoke it !! (grin)

Good night from Sydney Au.

Alex

 

 

As Ripley would say "Believe it or not" !