"Vinyl on CD"?

[Julf]

Reading Ken Kessler's column in the latest Hi-fi News magazine, I came across a description of the recording process of the latest recording, "Modern Art" by Matthew Sweet.

 

Here is how the process is described:

 

"Modern Art’s inventiveness extends to its final stages: mastering engineer Glenn Schickemployed his unique “triple analog” process, whereby the masters for the album were cut to virgin lacquer acetates and meticulously transferred back to digital, resulting in a rich, full-bodied, “vinyl” sound."

 

So the CD is a digital recording of a vinyl (or lacquer acetate, to be precise) recording, to achieve a "rich, full-bodied vinyl sound".

 

I know this is a very divisive and controversial topic, but while a lot of audiophiles maintain that the sound of vinyl is superior to that of a CD, others maintain that that is a perception created by the musically pleasant distortion and colouring caused by the limitations of the vinyl format.

 

Somehow the fact that the perceived positive effects of vinyl seem (in this case) to survive the conversion to digital and the digital reproduction of the CD would indicate that the perceived effect is not coming from the superior accuracy of the vinyl, but rather from the distortion and colouring.

[firedog]

I've made digital transcriptions of LPs which sound "just like" the vinyl. I'm not sure I'd go so far as your conclusion that it's because of the distortion and coloring, though. I have some hi-res recordings that don't sound like LP's, but do sound very "analogue like" - like an LP with a totally quiet background (something that doesn't exist in the world of vinyl), yet still have the "clean" sound of digital.

 

I think this shows that "digital" is not the problem, but something else in the recording/mastering chain.

[Julf]

I think this shows that "digital" is not the problem, but something else in the recording/mastering chain.

 

I agree - clearly digital is good enough to reproduce the analog-ness of vinyl when needed.

[spdif-usb]

I don't "like" the distortions caused by vinyl, I just dislike them alot less than that I dislike the ones caused by Redbook. This feeling gets reinforced profoundly when I compare both the audiophile vinyl and the Redbook to the 24/192 FLAC files that were sourced directly from the clean original studio master tapes. To my ears, the best sounding CDs don't come close to the best sounding vinyls. Clearly, something must be completely wrong with the Redbook format itself because, to date, I haven't found a CD the sound quality of which was acceptable to me in such way that I would even consider qualifying it as "audiophile". I use CDs mostly as beerpads.

[Julf]

Clearly, something must be completely wrong with the Redbook format itself because, to date, I haven't found a CD the sound quality of which was acceptable to me in such way that I would even consider qualifying it as "audiophile".

 

Not sure about audiophile, but clearly the experience of Matthew Sweet and his mastering engineer Glenn Schick is different than your experience - they seem to feel that CD is good enough to reproduce the vinyl experience.

[Jud]

Somehow the fact that the perceived positive effects of vinyl seem (in this case) to survive the conversion to digital and the digital reproduction of the CD would indicate that the perceived effect is not coming from the superior accuracy of the vinyl, but rather from the distortion and colouring.

 

That or Glenn Schick/Matthew Sweet looked at burgeoning vinyl sales and flat CD sales, and said, ''I want some of that market share!" I.e., it's marketing talk, regardless of how the recording may actually sound. (Tried and true analog master tape is readily available to anyone who wants analog in the signal chain, likely with a significant increase in fidelity over any process that involves recording from a consumer medium, whether CD or vinyl.)

[sandyk]

To my ears, the best sounding CDs don't come close to the best sounding vinyls. Clearly, something must be completely wrong with the Redbook format itself because, to date, I haven't found a CD the sound quality of which was acceptable to me in such way that I would even consider qualifying it as "audiophile".

 

spdif-usb

I went through the half speed mastered vinyl stage many years ago, and yes, they were very good.

I think these remarks say more about either your personal preference for a "mechanically assisted" presentation with added TT and cartridge resonances etc, AND the different equalisation and limiting needed at the vinyl mastering stage,

or very mediocre playback of the digital side of your gear.

Despite all the BS claims from both manufacturers and some reviewers, most affordable CD/DVD players are severely lacking, which is yet another factor other than convenience, why many are moving to Computer Audio.

Regards

Alex

[esldude]

I think Julf has it right. Having transferred vinyl to digital, the good qualities of vinyl are still there. Going digital doesn't remove them. So digital can faithfully reproduce whatever it is about vinyl that is satisfying. Also know people that use a quality AD converter right out of their phono preamp then keep it digital from there on out. Again, excellent results. The digital process doesn't loose the qualities of vinyl. Not much to conclude from that except digital is high enough fidelity to pass what is on vinyl cleanly.

 

As to whether this recording was marketing hype or simply what it it says, that the people making this recording prefer vinyl sound and the most authentic way to get that is push the recording to vinyl and digitally record it for distribution. Lots of effects and processing are part of most commercial releases. This one seems as viable as any.

 

Having a preference for vinyl sound which is a coloration is just fine. Cannot get a more real variation of that than actually going to vinyl. But if someone figured out the transfer function that creates, it could be done as a DSP plug in with pretty much identical results. More convenient than actually recording to vinyl. The remaining advantage to doing it the analog route is it forces the recordings to go easy on the gain due to the limitations of vinyl. This was mentioned by the recording engineer.

 

I also like Matthew Sweet's music, and will check this out when it is available in a few days.

[spdif-usb]

I think these remarks say more about either your personal preference for a "mechanically assisted" presentation with added TT and cartridge resonances etc, AND the different equalisation and limiting needed at the vinyl mastering stage,

or very mediocre playback of the digital side of your gear.

As a matter of fact, if I play EAC rips of well mastered CDs on better and far more expensive DACs than the one that I have, what really happens is these rips sound even much worse to my ears than when I play them on my Eastern Electric MiniMax DAC Plus. If I do the same with manually declicked (using ClickRepair in manual mode and iZotope RX Advanced 2 to manually zoom in on clicks in spectrogram mode) 24/96 audiophile vinyl transfers, that's when the better DACs start to sound slightly better to me than mine. After swapping in a better amp and speakers, both of these trends only become further noticeable. However, if I bring the nicer sounding original studio masters to the comparison table, like for example the non fake ones available from HDTracks, it immediately becomes obvious to me the fact Redbook has been designed for, as well as designed by, people who must be either close to deaf or using the cheapest amoung plastic speakers (that is, if not the combination of both).

[sandyk]

However, if I bring the nicer sounding original studio masters to the comparison table, like for example the non fake ones available from HDTracks, it immediately becomes obvious to me the fact Redbook has been designed for, as well as designed by, people who must be either close to deaf or using the cheapest amoung plastic speakers (that is, if not the combination of both).

All the information that is needed to blow a vinyl recording into the dust is there on a well recorded CD . All you need is to be able to extract it properly to a far better than average playback chain.Some CDs like "Yello-Touch" sound like they are high resolution recordings. A U.S. classical musician friend of mine who is based in Germany has heard rips of the "Dire Straits-Love Over Gold" CD and reported that it sounded even better than his vinyl version.That guy is also into recording classical performances, even using regenerated A.C. power, so he is no fool.

Alex

 

That is what this Forum is mainly about, not just the convenience factor and piped music around the house.

[spdif-usb]

All the information that is needed to blow a vinyl recording into the dust is there on a well recorded CD.

To my ears, even a mediocre vinyl recording typically sounds not only better than a well recorded CD, but also more true to the original studio recording than a well recorded CD. The smeared transients and the complete lack of three-dimensionality in the soundstage, as well as the complete lack of fidelity in sounds like cymbal crashes, are only a few examples of the reasons why Redbook is such a major disappointment to me.

The best CDs I've heard are no match for the best vinyl records I've heard, and I've heard probably more than a thousand CDs.

[sandyk]

The smeared transients and the complete lack of three-dimensionality in the soundstage, as well as the complete lack of fidelity in sounds like cymbal crashes, are only a few examples of the reasons why Redbook is such a major disappointment to me.

 

That's interesting, because I can even get a 3D presentation through my sytem using only 2 speakers with much material on DTV, which due to it's low bit rate encoding and being behind the 8 ball with starting out at below -20dB level is way from optimum.

Many modern CDs are ruined by heavy handed mastering, but that's not the fault of the medium.

Well recorded CDs can have an excellent soundstage and an excellent 3D presentation. Perhaps it's the way CD playback is implemented in most affordable players with their SQ degrading internal SMPS ? A typical SMPS DVD/CD player has >120VAC at it's "earth" side of it's RCA and coax SPDIF output socket WRT earth, combined with other switching artifacts.(230V system)

It is however from a high impedance source, although it can give a nasty little bite.

Again, that is not the fault of the medium.

Alex

[esldude]

To my ears, even a mediocre vinyl recording typically sounds not only better than a well recorded CD, but also more true to the original studio recording than a well recorded CD.

 

Have you ever had the chance to compare the original studio recording to CD and vinyl? Otherwise, you can only say it seems to be more true. Not trying to be critical, just pointing out what must be the case.

 

Now I have mentioned this before here. Have compared high speed pre-recorded reels, LP, and decently mastered CD. Used a couple dozen which among my friends we were able to put together. The LP was always, in every single case, the odd man out. I wouldn't say reels and CD were identical as they weren't. But they were quite similar sometimes very close to each other. LP was clearly something off in another direction. Sometimes it even seemed better, but different it was.

 

As the LP is technically of lesser fidelity, one can only conclude the colorations of LP are pleasing, but not accurate. Okay to have a preference for that coloration, but don't mistake it for higher fidelity.

 

This also dovetails nicely with vinyl transfers to digital which don't seem to suffer. Digital has a level of fidelity beyond vinyl, is able to correctly reproduce it including the pleasing coloration of vinyl. If you don't like digital (including CD) it isn't for any technical deficiency.

[spdif-usb]

Have you ever had the chance to compare the original studio recording to CD and vinyl?

Yes, of course I have.

As the LP is technically of lesser fidelity, one can only conclude...

Not trying to be critical, just pointing out that you are technically wrong. For LP to technically become of lesser fidelity, it has to be severely degraded due to things like excessive groove wear, warping, inadequate cleaning, uncleanable dirt / scratches / other forms of permanent damage (e.g. errors which happened at the pressing plant).

While it is true that the measurable distortion caused by vinyl is worse than that of Redbook, most of the distortion of vinyl is euphonic and only gradually becomes worse as frequency rises, i.e. it is located mostly in the part of the spectrum where the human hearing is least sensitive to it. As for the noise floor of vinyl, the hiss can be noticeable in very quiet parts of the music but is otherwise inaudible and, on top of this, the noise is located mostly below 500 Hz (below 400 Hz on the better pressings), which, still in terms of human audibility, means that it is equivalent to the noise floor of Redbook.

It is also true the fact Redbook has a higher theoretical dynamic range but relative dynamics matter more than dynamics, so this is where the vinyl clearly wins.

One can argue on the musically detractingness of the other side effects, but the EQ used on vinyl doesn't bother me and, as a matter of fact, it seems to me that it, as well as the pitch/speed, wow and flutter issues of vinyl, are overly exaggerated by CD fanatics, likely due to the obsessive marketing hype that's been going on about the medium ever since the early 80s.

Regardless of which system is used for playback of Redbook, with Redbook, the smearing of transients and fuzziness in the soundstage alone are far more damaging to music than almost anything. Moreover, the white paper on the HDCD standard provides mathematical proof of the fact Redbook cannot be used to store sufficient information to accurately reproduce an audio signal. Various tech papers from the early-to-mid 90s by dCS founder Mike Storey dig further into the subject, and can be found at Audio Engineering Society (AES).

That being said, on vinyl, the inner microdetail and complexity in a cymbal crash are so much closer to what a real cymbal sounds like versus on Redbook, asking the listener if comparison was based on original studio recordings becomes beyond ridicule.

 

@ sandydk: No offense, but... blaming another person's gear without having listened to it actually makes a rather poor excuse IMO and, like I said, gear improvements not only make Redbook sound even more clearly bad still, but also slightly help to improve the sound of vinyl.

[esldude]

So other than less SNR, higher distortion, less speed stability and EQ that doesn't bother you I am wrong that LP is of lesser fidelity? Got it.

 

And of course in all these other non-measurable ways it is superior.

 

Yet one can seem to digitally record and reproduce what is on the vinyl just fine. Seems the digital must at least equal what comes off the vinyl.

[sandyk]

And then there is the vastly inferior channel separation available from vinyl, of perhaps around 40dB over parts of the spectrum if you are lucky to have a better than average cartridge.Bearing that in mind, many RIAA preamps won't go to a great deal of trouble in the PSU area to obtain as high a possible channel separation. Anybody who believes that another 50dB or so of channel separation that you can get from good CD playback doesn't make any difference, such as pin point localisation, hasn't heard the true capabilities of a well recorded CD.

[Julf]

So other than less SNR, higher distortion, less speed stability and EQ that doesn't bother you

 

Well, and then there is the small issue of limited needle acceleration capability, severely limiting slew rate / speed...

[manisandher]

Yet one can seem to digitally record and reproduce what is on the vinyl just fine.

 

Hmm... I tried really hard to achieve this and never quite managed it. Not even with a Pacific Microsonics Model Two (at 24/192) and a modified Weiss AFI1. But I always felt that the issue wasn't the ADC (and therefore 'digital' itself) but rather the capturing of the ADC output onto hard-drive (via computer). There were nuances in the original vinyl that just weren't there on the replayed 24/192. And yet the ADC/DAC loopback sounded pretty much identical to the original vinyl.

 

I don't know. Maybe the same issue I ran into is also present in the production of CDs. I mean, there must be computers and hard-drives involved somewhere.

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

Well, and then there is the small issue of limited needle acceleration capability, severely limiting slew rate / speed...

 

Yeah, that's why some of us more discerning types use London (Decca) cartridges ;-) They really sound audibly faster.

 

Mani.

[spdif-usb]

Well, since people are unwilling to accept that the characteristics of the distortions have a far bigger meaning than their measurable quantity and that human perception can't be measured using an oscilloscope, there's not much left to discuss here, is there?

[esldude]

Well, since people are unwilling to accept that the characteristics of the distortions have a far bigger meaning than their measurable quantity and that human perception can't be measured using an oscilloscope, there's not much left to discuss here, is there?

 

Well if the distortion is low enough the characteristics don't matter. You seem unwilling to grant that the higher distortion of the LP has something to do with why it sounds different. And measurements of at least some types using an oscilloscope can be matched up to perceptual effects though we all know the o-scope is just a dismissive icon for measurements you don't like.

[esldude]

Hmm... I tried really hard to achieve this and never quite managed it. Not even with a Pacific Microsonics Model Two (at 24/192) and a modified Weiss AFI1. But I always felt that the issue wasn't the ADC (and therefore 'digital' itself) but rather the capturing of the ADC output onto hard-drive (via computer). There were nuances in the original vinyl that just weren't there on the replayed 24/192. And yet the ADC/DAC loopback sounded pretty much identical to the original vinyl.

 

I don't know. Maybe the same issue I ran into is also present in the production of CDs. I mean, there must be computers and hard-drives involved somewhere.

 

Mani.

 

Mani,

 

If your data was getting to the hard drive unaltered, then why would it sound different? I am assuming you used ADC/DAC with the clocks locked for monitoring. I will say what is sometimes unpopular, and lines up with my comparing very similar correction curves. Your ability to compare things almost side by side with quick switching is better than your ability to replay something after the fact and compare it via longer term memory. The old tendency to hear differences when there may not be any. Plus all the other effects that come into play with a greater separation in time.

 

Of course you may have started up the recorded file and switched between it and real-time playback through ADC/DAC the same as live feed vs ADC/DAC. If you did and it sounded different off the hard drive not sure where it would be coming from in that case.

[esldude]

Well, and then there is the small issue of limited needle acceleration capability, severely limiting slew rate / speed...

 

Nelson Pass did an article on slew rates seen in actual music quite a long time ago. He was using LP sources, and I don't remember how he was measuring it at the time. The maximum slew rates he found were somewhat lower than the maximum possible based upon signal level and bandwidth. Whether that is because cutter heads generally couldn't do it or cartridges couldn't track it or just that music rarely pushes the limits of slew rates he didn't go into. Just that in his conclusion the sometimes bandied about idea that amplifier slew rate limiting was a big limit to audio quality was not born out by his testing.

 

We see similar ideas that 44 khz limits the steepness of transient wavefronts and limits sound quality. Would be simpler now to at least look at the bits on recordings and find out whether the slewing rate is very often pushed by the music. Still wouldn't show the transients are a limit, but if the maximum steepness possible is almost never used in most music it would seem to limit the ill effects of that.

[spdif-usb]

Well if the distortion is low enough the characteristics don't matter.

That's my whole point. The distortion caused by Redbook is far from low enough.

About matching an oscilloscope up to perceptual effects, in theory that might be possible. Whether I will also live to see it happen in practice or not is still a whole other question, though...

[JohnMH]

"Modern Art’s inventiveness extends to its final stages: mastering engineer Glenn Schick employed his unique “triple analog” process, whereby the masters for the album were cut to virgin lacquer acetates and meticulously transferred back to digital, resulting in a rich, full-bodied, “vinyl” sound."

 

So the original recording is what? Trying to understand what "triple analog" means exactly. Does this imply that the original recording is on analog tape, mixed and mastered on analog tape, then transferred to the lacquer acetate which is then played back using a really good phono cartridge into ADC? I'm still only counting two analog stages.

 

Frankly this seems like a weird and convoluted process to me. It would perhaps make sense if the goal was to release purely analog vinyl records as well as CDs and digital versions.

 

My brother and I have some recordings that were made "direct to disk" back in the 70's. Haven't listened to them in a long time, but remember they sounded very good. I still enjoy vinyl, but haven't acquired many recently. In my opinion, on the equipment I have available, well made digital including redbook CDs sound better. My major complaints about recordings mostly have to do with the way they are recorded, mixed and mastered and not so much with the delivery mediums. I can enjoy any of them.