HARMAN Acquires Roon

11 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

Hi Tom, I think the key word is CONTINUOUS, in Roon statement "This means our users can once again enjoy their music collections without the need for continuous internet connectivity." 

 

Internet connectivity is still a requirement. What it's used for other than subscription verification isn't known by me. The cynical side of me thinks the app just stores everything to upload once per 30 days (or whatever the requirement for connectivity now is) rather than a free flowing consistent stream of data collection. I could be very wrong though and hope I am. 

 

 

One example of what it is used for is provided by Brian from Roon at the Roon forum, in a topix about Tidal Max :

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

Hi Tom, I think the key word is CONTINUOUS, in Roon statement "This means our users can once again enjoy their music collections without the need for continuous internet connectivity." 

 

Internet connectivity is still a requirement. What it's used for other than subscription verification isn't known by me. The cynical side of me thinks the app just stores everything to upload once per 30 days (or whatever the requirement for connectivity now is) rather than a free flowing consistent stream of data collection. I could be very wrong though and hope I am. 

 

I am very cynical. Rule 1: Information is $$$$. Rule 2: No such thing bad information. It is scary how much of our personal information is out there. 

 

I mean 🤣

 

 

2 hours ago, DuckToller said:

Its finally an privacy issue, and for more than 800 Euros I may feel damm right to demand such a solution.

 

EDIT: I did run Roon for almost 2 years and made the upgrade from 1.8 and then abandoned it.

 

I feel so sorry to mention this, though the amount of money involved wouldn't be THAT much of an indicator anymore

 

https://www.productmagazine.co.uk/books/you-are-the-product/

Quote

In Zuboff’s words, surveillance capitalism is a “new economic order that claims human experience as free raw material for hidden commercial practices of extraction, prediction and sales”. This draws the scope of surveillance capitalism far beyond that of the existing economic models, seeing in its sights, not just labour, attention or consumer power, but a market force that captures experience and individual autonomy.

 

For instance, this 77" TV should cost around $3,500

 

https://www.lg.com/us/tvs/lg-oled77g3pua-oled-4k-tv

 

Let's start watching around the 00:11:37 mark, basically it's all about being watched by the TV rather than the other way around

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAaSXz8CBMc&t=11m37s

 

In other words, he's getting really sick and tired of all that "surveillance on steroids" so to speak. No wonder he's gotta pay for a whole stack of 20TB hard drives so that having 160TB of local storage would allow him to disable all network connections on his LG TV.

 

Other than that, dunno what this is supposed to mean at all but IMHO here's yet another "nice" thing to know

 

https://archive.today/enIsv

https://theintercept.com/2017/03/07/wikileaks-dump-shows-cia-could-turn-smart-tvs-into-listening-devices/

https://www.facebook.com/tunnelbear/posts/privacypsa-whos-watching-who-via-httpstheinterceptcom20170307wikileaks-dump-show/1387119304692938

 

As always let's play dumb for a sec here, what's the big deal when we've got nothing to hide at all?

 

That sounds about right, in a sense that (almost) nothing in our daily lives could be hidden from anyone these days.

 

---

 

What about paying the richest guy on Earth? $74,990 for Model S and $48,990 for Model Y respectively

 

https://www.tesla.com/compare

 

No matter how much we're willing to pay, somehow we still have NO say?

 

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/teslas-privacy-nightmare-from-cameras-courtrooms-spy-د-ريم-العطاس

Quote

In addition to the legal and ethical implications for Tesla and its customers, this scandal also highlights the broader issue of increasing connectivity and computerization of cars. With cars collecting as much as 25 gigabytes of data per hour and sending it to data brokers or potentially being accessed by hackers, car owners are increasingly reliant on others to protect their data and respect their privacy.

 

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Finally why don't we open yet another can of worms simply because it's "so much fun" to do so?

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2024/01/28/new-details-free-ai-upgrade-for-google-and-samsung-android-users-leaks/

Quote

"Bard will analyze the private content of messages “to understand the context of your conversations, your tone, and your interests.”

It will analyze the sentiment of your messages, “to tailor its responses to your mood and vibe.” And it will “analyze your message history with different contacts to understand your relationship dynamics… to personalize responses based on who you're talking to.”

"You need to assume anything you ask is non-private and could come back to haunt you."

 

Recently there's this full committee hearing

 

https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/protecting-children-online

https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/01/tech/social-media-regulation-bipartisan-support/index.html

Quote

Tech companies and consumer groups do agree on one thing: Congress should pass a national privacy law regulating how consumer data can be collected, used and shared. That would be a huge down payment on a future social media law, said Balkam. But even that proposal is still subject to many of the same dynamics that make social media regulation hard.

 

Let's just wait and see if that were genuinely getting anywhere then, just try not to hold our breath IMHO.

 

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At the end of day, we could pay tens of thousands / several thousands / hundreds of dollars but still have no privacy.

 

And then we also have no privacy whenever we're paying nothing whatsoever.

 

Simply put, it's all about "Planting the Trojan Horse" here and there by doing whatever it takes to lure us right in. None of their products and services would even matter, given the fact that their business model should rely on harvesting human experience as free raw material while monetizing the heck outta that.

22 minutes ago, seeteeyou said:

 

I feel so sorry to mention this, though the amount of money involved wouldn't be THAT much of an indicator anymore

 

https://www.productmagazine.co.uk/books/you-are-the-product/

 

For instance, this 77" TV should cost around $3,500

 

https://www.lg.com/us/tvs/lg-oled77g3pua-oled-4k-tv

 

Let's start watching around the 00:11:37 mark, basically it's all about being watched by the TV rather than the other way around

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAaSXz8CBMc&t=11m37s

 

In other words, he's getting really sick and tired of all that "surveillance on steroids" so to speak. No wonder he's gotta pay for a whole stack of 20TB hard drives so that having 160TB of local storage would allow him to disable all network connections on his LG TV.

 

Other than that, dunno what this is supposed to mean at all but IMHO here's yet another "nice" thing to know

 

https://archive.today/enIsv

https://theintercept.com/2017/03/07/wikileaks-dump-shows-cia-could-turn-smart-tvs-into-listening-devices/

https://www.facebook.com/tunnelbear/posts/privacypsa-whos-watching-who-via-httpstheinterceptcom20170307wikileaks-dump-show/1387119304692938

 

As always let's play dumb for a sec here, what's the big deal when we've got nothing to hide at all?

 

That sounds about right, in a sense that (almost) nothing in our daily lives could be hidden from anyone these days.

 

---

 

What about paying the richest guy on Earth? $74,990 for Model S and $48,990 for Model Y respectively

 

https://www.tesla.com/compare

 

No matter how much we're willing to pay, somehow we still have NO say?

 

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/teslas-privacy-nightmare-from-cameras-courtrooms-spy-د-ريم-العطاس

 

---

 

Finally why don't we open yet another can of worms simply because it's "so much fun" to do so?

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2024/01/28/new-details-free-ai-upgrade-for-google-and-samsung-android-users-leaks/

 

Recently there's this full committee hearing

 

https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/protecting-children-online

https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/01/tech/social-media-regulation-bipartisan-support/index.html

 

Let's just wait and see if that were genuinely getting anywhere then, just try not to hold our breath IMHO.

 

---

 

At the end of day, we could pay tens of thousands / several thousands / hundreds of dollars but still have no privacy.

 

And then we also have no privacy whenever we're paying nothing whatsoever.

 

Simply put, it's all about "Planting the Trojan Horse" here and there by doing whatever it takes to lure us right in. None of their products and services would even matter, given the fact that their business model should rely on harvesting human experience as free raw material while monetizing the heck outta that.

I understand your concern, however, your input it isn't helpul in order to allow this thread the direction it aimed for.
I would love to see a thread or a subforum solely dealing with practical privacy issues instead sharing these infos continously in threads that are touching privacy only by far.
Chris or Audiodoc could , for example, explain at such a place how they PiHoled their networked privacy ;-)

2 minutes ago, DuckToller said:

I understand your concern, however, your input it isn't helpul to allow this thread the direction it aimed. I would love to see a hread or a subforum soley dealing with practical privacy issues instead sharing it continously in threads only touching privacy by far. Chris or Audiodoc could , for example, explain at such a place how they PiHoled their networked privacy ;-)

Hi Tom, I will start a thread about privacy and our hobby, so we can at least attempt to link the two :~)

Hi Guys, the HiFi privacy discussion continues here - 

 

 

I was thinking more about this acquisition of Roon by Harman / Samsung today. I don't think you can underestimate how much this is about data, and how potentially detrimental this is to other companies. Samsung has nearly unlimited resources, especially when compared to other HiFi companies. The acquisition of Roon now enables them to estimate / know how how many devices other manufacturers are selling, have sold, market demand for specific products or types of products, how the products work, how customers interact with these products through their audio player (Roon), what music and types of music are played, the physical location of all Roon users, income bracket of users, and the list goes on. 

 

If you ran a company that partnered with Roon, would you be happy that a competitor (Samsung / Harman) now has all this information about your customers and products, and can reach your customers directly? 

 

I still like Roon, and the people who started the company. In fact I've been using it quite a bit the last couple weeks. I just have serious questions about this acquisition. 

how is this different to running products like Spotify, Tidal or products like JRiver etc etc ?

3 minutes ago, krass said:

how is this different to running products like Spotify, Tidal or products like JRiver etc etc ?

Night and day difference. 

3 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Night and day difference. 

can you explain ?

I see it as a <software product> requiring user registration, accessing a server run by the provider, who can embed nuggets in their code to collect info from you such as your hardware, your habits, your OS, location etc etc. All of the products I listed do that…. some are cheap, some expensive but I seriously can’t see what major difference there is with Roon

 

A minor difference is that it gets potentially forced on people who buy Harmon products… but they’re no Apple.

 

16 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

Let's look at JRiver because you mentioned it. 

 

JRiver requires payment for its software. After that, you are free to use it without an internet connection. In addition, JRiver, the company, knows nothing about the devices you connect to. There is no certification process requiring manufacturers to send hardware to them. JRiver doesn't know how many of its users use a Grimm Mu-1, when they purchased it, how much they use it, who upgraded to MU-2 and when and exactly how the Mu-1 works internally. Where those Mu-1 users reside in the world and how much money they make (tying into other databases). How popular is the Mu-1 compared to its competition. How to get in contact with the Mu-1 users if a new competing product from Harman is released. 

 

This is the tip of the iceberg.

You are correct.

I don't like big corps having my info - especially for free.  But unless you want to be disconnected from the Internet, you can't prevent it.

I see Roon as so valuable to me personally - and that's dependent on internet access - that I'm willing to give up the information.

It was the same before with LMS - it's nothing new.

 

Maybe part of the solution would be for Roon to sell a version for the local library  only, and no info going back to them - but I doubt they'd ever do that. 

 

The better big term solution would be for companies to eitther; a) pay users in order to collect info on them; or b) a user option to opt out of info and uploading it to the Net or at least a choice of what info is uploaded.

In the case of Roon, say I could allow my music listening habits to be uploaded, but not info about my devices, home network setup, etc. I should also be able to tell companies they can't sell or pass on my info without my express permission.

This could be done. But unless legislation mandates it, companies will never do it. 

22 minutes ago, firedog said:

You are correct.

I don't like big corps having my info - especially for free.  But unless you want to be disconnected from the Internet, you can't prevent it.

I see Roon as so valuable to me personally - and that's dependent on internet access - that I'm willing to give up the information.

It was the same before with LMS - it's nothing new.

 

Maybe part of the solution would be for Roon to sell a version for the local library  only, and no info going back to them - but I doubt they'd ever do that. 

 

The better big term solution would be for companies to eitther; a) pay users in order to collect info on them; or b) a user option to opt out of info and uploading it to the Net or at least a choice of what info is uploaded.

In the case of Roon, say I could allow my music listening habits to be uploaded, but not info about my devices, home network setup, etc. I should also be able to tell companies they can't sell or pass on my info without my express permission.

This could be done. But unless legislation mandates it, companies will never do it. 

This specific case goes much further, in my view, than a company having your information. Samsung now has tons of information about its competitors products and can directly communicate with its competitors customers. I don’t see how this is good for anyone in the long run. 

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

This specific case goes much further, in my view, than a company having your information. Samsung now has tons of information about its competitors products and can directly communicate with its competitors customers. I don’t see how this is good for anyone in the long run. 

Well, this type of thing is what gives me pause spending so much money on software that has mediocre support.

7 hours ago, firedog said:

You are correct.

I don't like big corps having my info - especially for free.  But unless you want to be disconnected from the Internet, you can't prevent it.

I see Roon as so valuable to me personally - and that's dependent on internet access - that I'm willing to give up the information.

It was the same before with LMS - it's nothing new.

 

Maybe part of the solution would be for Roon to sell a version for the local library  only, and no info going back to them - but I doubt they'd ever do that. 

 

The better big term solution would be for companies to eitther; a) pay users in order to collect info on them; or b) a user option to opt out of info and uploading it to the Net or at least a choice of what info is uploaded.

In the case of Roon, say I could allow my music listening habits to be uploaded, but not info about my devices, home network setup, etc. I should also be able to tell companies they can't sell or pass on my info without my express permission.

This could be done. But unless legislation mandates it, companies will never do it. 

 

See, I see it differently than you. It is library, I do not want to share what I am listening to. Why would they care?

 

LMS does not, like ROON, require to call back constantly. I have my Win 11 info reported back so paired down also.

 

For 800 USD, they should be backing it, giving full support, etc. but they do not.

 

Roon can stuff it.