Would you purchase a SACD player right now?

[mcatucci]

Now that I hear what really good music can sound like after downloading some songs from HDTracks, I'm wondering if purchasing a SACD player is the next logical step for me. I've never been into vinyl and always thought CD was as good as it gets. I understand now that I was very, very wrong. I've been reading everything I can here at CA for hours and days on end and I am aware of the issues with HDtracks and other supposed high rez downloads. With SACD it seems there there are no issues, with the vast majority of offerings I will hear a major improvement over the cd offering.

 

I keep hearing how the disk is a dying breed but sales are up on SACD players and there is now a ton of SACD music to choose from with more coming out this year. I think SACD is here for a bit longer. Do I jump on the SACD player and start buying up my favorite artist's disks or is it a waste of money at this point and are hirez downloads or even Blu Ray music the way to go?

 

Your opinion is much apprecaited as I am at a crossroad right now and need some direction ;-)

 

-Mike

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

Just one man's opinion, but I believe the rumors of the death of SACD (or CD) to be overstated. Media induced, and recklessly repeated, hyberbole.

 

I just bought a handful of SACDs, actually, and I have plans to buy a few dozen more. And I still plan to by a couple hundred LPs.

 

As for players, I actually have an "old" Accuphase. I had tried to sell it only a few months ago, but when the latest deal fell through abruptly, I stamped my feet, groused, and in a fit of pique, actually turned it on and played an SACD. I am keeping the player. It's fantastic.

 

But if I was buying a new player, I'd be all over an Oppo BDP-95.

 

[Vade_Forrester]

I think the decision would depend on whether there's a lot of music you like on SACD. If there is, it's worth considering an SACD player. I think SACD releases seem to be predominately classical, which is just fine with me, but if you prefer other genres, SACD may be a bad investment. I'd hedge my bets by getting an SACD player with digital inputs so you can use the internal DAC to play HD computer audio files in case new SACD releases suddenly dwindles dramatically.

 

Vade Forrester

 

[barrows]

One, in the main living area is a two channel, music only, high end system. There is no TV or screen of any kind, and this system is computer playback only (although vinyl may be added in the future). I like to keep it simple, and have no desire to have a spinning disc player in this sytem, ever.

In my bedroom I have another, very moderate, two channel set up with a TV-I would add something like an Oppo to this which can play all formats (CD, DVD, DVDA, SACD, BRD).

As to SACD music and DSD, for my high end system, I am going to wait until DSD playback via the computer becomes totally viable, and then add it there. DSD playback from the computer will have advantages vs. any spinning disc approach.

 

RE, HDTracks controversy. The vast majority of high res files sold by HDTracks sound fantastic, and are "real" hi res. Do not be put off by the naysayers, as we move forward, and hi res distribution is getting better sorted out, the problems are lessening. BTW, do not for a minute think that SACDs are without problems! There are a lot of SACDs out there of questionable provenance which are not "real" hi res as well. Plenty of 16/44.1 digital files have been upsampled to DSD and then distributed on SACD.

 

My bottom line thought is this: If you have a good SACD player, and a lot of SACDs, certainly keep it for now, and look to incorporate computer based DSD playback in the near future. But I would not look to spend a lot of money on an SACD player at this point in the game, as I expect computer playback of SACDs (or distribution of SACDs as DSD files) to happen in the near future (yes, some enterprising folks are doing this now with considerable difficulty); noting that a really good SACD player is going to cost around $10K these days...

 

[ted_b]

1) that a "really good SACD will cost $10k these days". I challenge anyone to put their $10k player up against a Modwright modded Oppo BDP-95 for one fifth that amount.

2) Although even a month ago it had "considerable difficulty" SACD ripping for computer playback is no longer difficult. I rip to my hearts content (my personal library only) and convert to PCM for short-term listening, and have a DSD DAC on its way for straight-in native listening. The collection of freeware tools required to get a compatible PS3 for ripping takes maybe 20 minutes to gather and install.

 

[dallasjustice]

If I couldn't access the DAC in a reasonable low jitter way with .dff files, I would consider it a waste of money. It's easy enough to extract DSD from SACD. DSD downloads are on the way.

 

I agree with Scot that SACD's demise is exaggerated. I believe it's better to have the physical medium as a backup just in case something happens to the hard drive.

 

[asindc]

I agree with Ted B. To get outstanding SACD disc playback, spending $10K is not necessary, or even $5K for that matter. The Oppo 95, McIntosh MCD500, Esoteric Sa50, and most of the recent Cary players can be had for much less than $10. All of those players except the Oppo have digital inputs. It's just a matter of how much do want to spend on SACD discs and how long are you willing to wait for DSD-capable DACs to become mainstream/more affordable.

 

[Miska]

To get outstanding SACD disc playback, spending $10K is not necessary, or even $5K for that matter.

 

It is actually a lot cheaper to get good quality DSD playback than good quality PCM playback. But only when DSD is conversion is native and not through PCM conversion.

 

True DSD DAC is much simpler than true PCM DAC and the sound quality is much more dependent on how the bitstream was encoded and less how it is converted to analog.

 

This is one reason that true PCM audio DACs are almost extinct, only BB PCM1704 left.

 

 

P.S. I just purchased a new streo-SACD player so that I can leave Sony SACD player for purely multichannel playback. No need to change settings anymore between mch and stereo.

 

 

[barrows]

We disagree on what really good playback is?

 

1) that a "really good SACD will cost $10k these days". I challenge anyone to put their $10k player up against a Modwright modded Oppo BDP-95 for one fifth that amount.

 

Good point here, though. Although I have not heard, and will look into the details, does Dan replace the SMPS? I am sure hereplaces the crappy IC based output stage... and it is only $2K, really? I will look into this.

 

2) Although even a month ago it had "considerable difficulty" SACD ripping for computer playback is no longer difficult. I rip to my hearts content (my personal library only) and convert to PCM for short-term listening, and have a DSD DAC on its way for straight-in native listening. The collection of freeware tools required to get a compatible PS3 for ripping takes maybe 20 minutes to gather and install.

 

Ted, I am happy that you have the time, patience, and resourcefulness to be able to rip the DSD from SACDs. For me, the process is too involved and requires too much additional gear and time for me to consider it less than "considerably difficult". When I can plug an external USB drive into a Mac, and rip DSD off an SACD into individual song files directly, I would then consider the task reasonable. I do not mind having to add tags, etc: but having to purchase a PS which I have no other use for, and then use editing software to break the rip into tracks, and then add all tags, is just too much effort and complication for me. Same goes for BRD. When it is as easy as DVDA I will be happy. My DAC is DSD compatible though, but not my interface, yet: although the dCS method might work...

 

 

 

[dallasjustice]

You don't need editing software to breakup the tracks like you would with a BluRay Ripper. It's actually much simpler than it looks like. Once it's installed, you only need to add tags. It's a lot of fun. :-)

 

[barrows]

So there is now SACD ripping software which rips into individual tracks... cool! Now where is the external usb drive...getting closer to being "reasonable". I figured that this would be just a matter of time, I do have a stack of SACDs which would be nice to rip.

 

I checked out the Modwright Oppo mods, looks like the full tube mod would be the only one which gets rid of the SPMPS for the output stage-that would be a necessity for me. But I would suspect that this player (BDP-95/ with tube mod and external supply) would be really nice, for only $3K. Probably a great deal for someone looking for a disc spinner.

 

[Panelhead]

Sold my best SACD player a few months back. Never used it anymore and all the hybrids had the redbook layer copied to iTunes.

Put it up on Audiogon for 60% of what it cost new two years earlier. Got a dozen offers the first week. Lost a grand, but audio is not a cheap hobby.

Still had a modified SA-8260 that works, modified Sony 222ES, and a stack of Sony BDP players that do SACD. Did not need the SA-11S2 collecting dust in the rack.

But a month later was running my son to a class and walked into a fund raiser for a young cancer patient. Walked around and saw a cherry DVP-S9000ES with remote. The donor was there and said it was her husbands.

Only wanted the big Sony. These are nice for a first generation player. VSE modded a bunch. Walked off with it. My pocket 70.00 lighter. This is about my current limit for any disc spinner. But did drop 99.00 on a new Sony BDP-SS570 last summer. Rick Schultz of EVS was pimping them as a SERIOUS player. Actually they are pretty good sounding.

My recommendation is to not spend more than 100.00 on a SACD player today. Look at the Sony store, Amazon, or other close-sites.

Way too many SACD's in my collection sound the same on both the DSD and PCM layers. BIS admitted many of thier early hybrids were converted from 48/24 PCM. And some pure DSD discs like the Telarcs are so musically challenged that I could not listen all the way through the first time.

Maybe soon it will be possible to easily extract DSD from SACD and then either play that or convert to 96/192/384 hires PCM. To me that is the future of SACD.

 

George

 

[ted_b]

SACD rips. You were confusing them with BluRay or others. You can rip to ISO's, rip to individual tracks (stereo or multichannel), etc. And the files are ripped to any attached USB drive (i.ethumb drive or larger). Many of us just rip to ISO to save the PS3 spinner, then use a Windows app (one button) to extract the individual DSDIFF files...still no editing. The only hassle is album tagging. Artist and song seem to come over fine.

 

I agree that obtaining the correct PS3 is the "considerable difficulty".

 

Dan's mods are truly revelatory, and sorry about the math. I was prolly using my cost I'm a long time beta tester for Dan and have owned most of his mods (was his first customer for a couple of his mods, including the Logitech Transporter and Denon 3910 Signature) and now own his amazing Modwright-manufactured (i.e not modded) monoblock amps.

 

 

 

[barrows]

I agree on Dan's work, I almost bought one of his Transporters a number of years ago, after spending a few hours with Arnie Nudell and his Modwright/Sony SACD player (tube output stage, tube rectified power supply) in PS Audios' listening room.

Perhaps at some point I'll have the time/patience to figure out the SACD ripping!

 

[mcatucci]

I'd be running the SACD player into my Peachtree Nova through the optical port. So the Nova's DAC should handle the SACD's pretty well I would hope.

 

New players start around 350. but there are plenty of 100. options on eBay. Still debating....

 

[wappinghigh]

Whilst we all wait to here from ted what this DSD capable DAC is, what it costs and what it ends up sounding like , and his software library solution for getting the tracks there....I simply still enjoy playing the odd SACD disc in a second hand NAD M55 DSD capable player. I picked this up for a bargain price on ebay last yr. Its the only disc format music other than the odd DVD-A that I still play. So my advice is YES by all means purchase an SACD player...but make sure its DSD direct capable...and buy it second hand at some ridiculous marked down price. Then connect it with analog out, and ..use it for the next couple of yrs until the guru's on this forum show us all the way.... Cheers...Wap

 

 

[ted_b]

(or universal player that plays SACD) is NOT capable of playing the protected SACD layer. You'd be simply hearing the redbook (cd layer) into your DAC. Sorry.

 

Your options for access to the SACD hirez are these:

1) HDMi out into a surround receiver or processor (usually midfi sound at best)

2) analog out of your SACD player (i.e RCA left and right) into an analog input of a good stereo preamp (sonics depends on analog section of the SACD player)

3) HDMI out to an inexpensive HDMi de-embedder (search "de-embedder on this forum to see my posts and others) that strips hirez PCM (usually 24/88 but can be slightly better even, depending on the player; new cheap Sony's only do 16 bit) off the HDMI, then you send the HDMI on its merry way to your tv or receiver/pre-pro

4) rip the true hirez DSD of the SACD via the hacked PS3 method we've discussed here quite a bit). As Barrows points out, it's a pain to find the right PS3 candidate, but I can help you from there. You'll still need to convert to PCM for your Peachtree DAC though, cuz it doesn't read and process DSD.

 

Net/net, nothing but not-so-good news.

 

[Miska]

There are at least two DAC solutions for direct DSD playback from computer. From Mytek and dCS...

 

The only tricky part is getting DSD data off the SACDs.

 

Once you have DSDIFF (.dff) or DSF (.dsf) files, it's all quite simple.

 

P.S. Blue Coast and few other instances sell either DSDIFF or DSF files, or both. Now that there are more possibilities for playback, I'd expect more material to become available.

 

[ted_b]

Yes, we've discussed Mytek, dCS (don't forget Playback Designs) quite a bit. The only reason ripping SACD's came up is cuz I challenged Barrows, who brought it up, that it was a complete PITA. It's not anymore (assuming you find an eligible PS3 candidate). My Mytek is due soon.

 

[wappinghigh]

But I'll stick to my $500 NAD M55 till they bring out one of these that can also handle 24/196 AND multichannel.....

 

[mcatucci]

"Mcatucci, the optical or even coax out of an SACD player

(or universal player that plays SACD) is NOT capable of playing the protected SACD layer. You'd be simply hearing the redbook (cd layer) into your DAC. Sorry."

 

 

You know I thought this was the case. I just had a conversation with someone who I thought knew their stuff and they told me to go ahead and use the optical out, that would be the best way to hook a SACD to the Nova. Thanks very much for confirming what I had suspected. That would have been a real waste of time and money.

 

[wappinghigh]

The mytek 8x192 adda. Does mulitchannel DSD with the right firmware...is that the one your getting ted?

 

[mcatucci]

So essentially what you're saying is even with using the analog connections on the SACD player direct to my Peachtree Nova's analog will not yield very good performace?

 

[wappinghigh]

Depends on the SACD player's inbuilt dac. If it has a decent one and does DSD then this is precisely the way to go.....there really are some bargains out their if you are prepared to look...

 

[ted_b]

$100-350 range will likely not have a decent analog stage(I'm less concerned about the player's dac chip and more concernd about the quality of the signal path after the dac chip..usually cheap stuff and/or mediocre implementation in $200 players) to send to the Peachtree's analog ins anyway. The Oppo BDP-95 is an exception to the rule for under $1k.