HD TRACKS – KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!

[Jonathan Tinn]

Great points Chris. You are spot on!

 

[almaatakz]

I am watching these developmetns with interest and severelly limit my spending with HDT until it clears.

 

For me it is simple -

selling non hd stuff as hd is unacceptable

not clearly explaining (by HDT) what happenned - unacceptable

not clearly stating for each album what is it made of - will soon become unacceptable - once confidence in quality is lost.

 

so far not impressed with HDT response to the situation.

 

[Jonathan Tinn]

"no issue with Bruce as a person. Hearing that he simply does what he is told based on what he is given is not a satisfying response as a customer of HD Tracks. Additionally, it appeared (although more questioning would be required) that he knew full well when a file was upsampled and not really created hi-res. Frankly, how could he NOT KNOW ...this is his business, after all. Clearly, I am not a customer of Bruce. However, at what point does Bruce feel compelled to speak up for what he probably understands better than you or me? Maybe asking too much from a supplier to "blow the whistle" ...still, that was the question that lingered with me after the seminar. Yes, I get all the relationships that accompany the supplier / customer relationship. I left that seminar feeling less than eager to purchase anything more from HD Tracks."

 

I am very puzzled at your attacking Bruce Brown and his credibility. He does exactly what he is paid to do. He transfers the files as requested. Once it became known to him the nature of some of these files, he started sending reports of the status of the original file or tape and he had done his job. He is under no obligation from a moral standpoint to publicly disclose anything. He is doing exactly what his client is asking him to do. You are also making an assumption that he visits HDTracks to see how the files are represented or even if they make them available. The labels are the ones to blame for this.

 

Also, I think you are correct that the point David Robinson of Positive Feedback Online (moderator of the seminar) made was important and this is a great start. We the end users of these files want to know where they come from and truly what they are. If we make these our requirements for purchasing and make it clear to HDTracks as well as to other download sites, they will certainly accommodate our requests. Power in numbers!

 

HDTracks happens to be a GREAT resource for us and I am personally ecstatic that they exist. David Chesky is to be commended and not chastised for his efforts. I believe he will try to do the right thing given the opportunity. We need to let him know what our expectations are and that we will not settle for anything less.

 

The last thing I want you to consider is that some of you may look at a file in Audacity, or a program like that and think it is not what it is claimed to be and they might be mistaken. It really takes a trained eye to know how to recognize a "brickwall filter."

 

 

[Jonathan Tinn]

"So, bottom line, HDtracks only sells the music.

 

If something is wrong with the quality of the music, It is not really their fault in the end but the labels who send the music and the many mastering houses that do the so-called quality control.

 

Maybe It's time to change mastering houses..."

 

How can you blame the mastering houses, when they are doing exactly what they are requested to do? It is all 100% on the labels!

 

[Jonathan Tinn]

and think that will get the attention that is needed for consistency and accountability.

 

I am sure this will only yield positive results.

 

[PeterSt]

"Btw, Bruce is a great guy and is beyond reproach."

 

...

 

I believe it's necessary to provide my own opinion. I disagree 100% with your statement.

 

Of course it looks more easy to just throw out something like this without further justification. In the mean time though, I really won't understand what this can be about.

So, must I or we now take it for granted he is not a great guy and his work is refutable ?

 

Maybe that is so - maybe it is not so at all;

What is the argumentation ?

 

 

 

 

[PeterSt]

Since some of these titles have been shown to be less than high resolution I wonder if people will contact Acoustic Sounds, Elusive Disc, etc... and demand they stop selling these titles as physical discs.

 

What I wonder is how the urge for this so called hires can be so high that people keep on buying it over and over again, knowing how little the chance is that it will be any good.

 

What I also wonder is why for years people kept on "thinking" hires was so much better sounding.

While it clearly was and is not at all.

What I lastly wonder is how it works with "you people" that as soon as you see graphs, you suddenly "hear" that it sounds like sh*t.

 

The problem is in the poor jobs done mainly in the early 2000's. It won't change a thing to the next batch showing up on HD Tracks.

 

Yes, I nag all the way from the moment the stuff (mainly DVD-A) could be ripped. 95% is BS, not 30% only like some suggest.

And no, it is not the same as redbook or upsampled or whatever we may think. It is way worse.

See ? I nag again.

 

But at least I am not buying this stuff over and over, knowing that shelving a 100 will bring 30 of value.

Ah, 5 I mean.

 

Sorry for a strange mood, but I don't get it.

 

[realhifi]

Nice site! I dig ECM also and have been hoping for them to start releasing their catalogue for downloads. THIS is what we need to keep happening! Doesn't need to be 24/192 to make me happy, just let me purchase things at cd quality right to my computer. If the record companies have any sense this is where they can make some money.

 

[cmidyet]

Since you addressed your comment to me (cmidyet), I will respond. I certainly was not attacking Bruce. I did say that I was not satisfied with his response pertaining to the HD Tracks question that I asked during that seminar at RMAF. Since I was the one asking the question, I feel that I can respond to his answer. To put it bluntly, I think he "wimped out" based on HD Tracks being his customer. I do understand that. Of course he is under no obligation (morally or otherwise) to say anything about this. However, what he did say can only be interpreted as "HD Tracks gets my reports..." If they do in fact get his assessment, then they either don't read them or choose not to act on them. Piecing together that point along with David Chesky's actual statement to Chris Connaker:

 

"Chris

What your readers need to know is that we have a few mastering house testing files for us. They tell us if they are bad or good. And if the files are bad, they do not go up on HDtracks.That is why we have the outside mastering houses test the in the first place.

 

If a file is bad the label is contacted to see if they an find a true hi res files. If they cannot, the album is never put out. We have a pile of rejects of very popular albums..."

 

...this suggests that there is some kind of disconnect here. Either the info is not reaching them or they are not using the info. As a customer, I simply want to know that what goes up for sale is "as advertised." When it is not, I expect better responses than what we have been getting from HD Tracks. In most cases, the way a company responds to problems tells you a great deal. As a customer, I expect occasional problems. When those occur, great companies go the "extra mile" to keep my business. My loyalty to a company that responds well to problem issues is extremely high.

 

I believe HD Tracks has a golden opportunity here to keep existing customers and to be attractive to the many new ones that are likely over the coming years. However, they will need to do a better job of handling the issues that have plagued them for most of this year (my first purchase was back in March, so that is my personal time frame of dealing with this ...others may be much longer). It should be extremely obvious to them by now that the number of complaints and concerns (even if they just frequent this one blog) are unacceptable. I usually assume that there is some sort of process at fault when this stuff happens. It is usually fixable if the people at the top (David Chesky) want to fix it. I commend him on going after this market. I am not ready to chastise him just yet. However, he needs to do a better job of "tuning into this problem" than he has so far. As one of the leaders, he must listen to his customers. They are speaking loudly right now (again, just based on the posts at this one blog). Soon, they will simply shut up and buy elsewhere ...many are already doing this.

 

[Priaptor]

like this site. Their service has been excellent and their choices really nice.

 

I agree about the high res stuff.

 

Check out some of their Swedish Jazz stuff. It is very interesting music, is recorded very well and sounds great-of course, assuming you like the music.

 

[Jonathan Tinn]

other than the part about Bruce Brown. If a company pays you to do something, you do it. If they do something that their customers question, why should you be held responsible at all to police what the company you worked for did with it?

 

Like I said, only good things will come from this.

 

[cmidyet]

We are not saying the same thing. If you are on a panel discussion, you don't just simply say nothing other than "I send them reports..." Not good enough. Clearly, you are not held responsible for the actions of HD Tracks to their customers ...it is not YOUR responsibility to "police" anything. Still, it IS your responsibility to explain your "take" on the situation during this kind of a meeting. When it is obvious that something is not right, you explain your position in the process beyond just "sending them stuff." Otherwise, don't participate by showing up in a panel discussion. Let's DO hold each other accountable for what we do and don't say during such an event ...otherwise, why were you there talking about anything at all. Your presence is only meaningful if you can give an honest response.

 

I realize that you are just trying to smooth this over. Sorry, I don't agree with your statement.

 

Also, only time will tell if anything "good" comes from this. That will only happen if David Chesky actually "gets" this and chooses to fix this problem. Not brain surgery, but he does need to act. Why not simply choose to do the following:

 

1) Identify "bogus" hi-rez files and STOP placing them for download on the HD Tracks site. It would appear that the people doing the conversions DO KNOW when a file is NOT Hi-res. Simple, don't you think?

 

2) Certify that every track is at least "listened to" by someone. This solves most of the other problems if the person has to do the same download and listen that ALL customers MUST DO. Sometimes, the file is just not OK. Listening at least deals with these issues, if not the resolution issue (better done via measurement).

 

3) Encourage feedback and then RESPOND ASAP, not months later. Certainly, give a better response to emails generated by sites like this using the one posted by Chris C as an example.

 

Are these three steps really that difficult to accomplish? I don't think so and, more importantly, if they were done ...you could provide a "certification" process second to none. Seems like a "no brainer" to me as a good marketing tactic.

 

[Jonathan Tinn]

If you asked Bruce a direct question like "How do you feel about what HD Tracks is doing with the files you send them?", I would understand your point, but that was not the question.

 

The questions you are speaking about need to be addressed to David Chesky. If you have Puget Sound Studios related questions for Bruce and do not like the answer than that is a different situation.

 

And yes, I am trying to smooth this over because it needs to be more productive in terms of making it better and coming up with a solution where we all get what we want, full disclosure so we know what we are indeed looking at purchasing.

 

[Paul R]

I have been watching this thread for several days, and the to be honest, I still cannot really make up my mind.

 

On one side, the Brothers Chesky are doing all the hard work to build a business based upon audiophile sound. Sooner or later, some big fish, like Apple, is going to decide to swim in their pond and inevitably, they will be pushed out of the business. If by nothing more than pure economics.

 

On the other side, forking over $20 or more a "HiRes" album that isn't does not sit well with me either.

 

About the other thing I can think of to do is everyone chip in a few bucks to get Chris or someone to buy every release, test it, and publish the results.

 

That would serve two purposes - 1st and foremost, it strangle the flow of wasted money from consumers to HDTracks for poor quality audio.

 

Secondly, HDT could them stop paying their "engineers" to test the music, and just depend upon the testing and rating service.

 

Beyond that, I am unsure there is anything that can be done, other than to stop buying from them. That would be a greater loss, I suspect.

 

-Paul

 

 

[dummy]

You watched too much Disney movies lately, haven't you? ;-)

 

[cmidyet]

Were you at the seminar? I was and Bruce most definitely understood the question. Nuff said.

 

I have given specific steps regarding full disclosure that I believe would "make it better." What is your solution? Do you have one?

 

[Paul R]

Perhaps - my typing has sure deteriorated.

-Paul

 

 

[6th.replicant]

Ah, so David Chesky is a marketing man. HDtracks - pretty website; poor product management. He is indeed a marketing man!

 

It's unfortunate that HDtracks seems to spend more time and effort ducking the issue(s) - eg the above press release and concocting ambiguous twaddle such as "...our pristine high res FLAC files are generated fror [sic] the original masters..." - rather than actually fixing the problem(s).

 

 

[jmall]

I have to admit that the fact that we didn't get what was advertised when we bought some titles is just bad business... And in North America probably illegal. I know I have not been totally impressed.

 

But I have a feeling that Mr. Chesky knows this and can't run *every* aspect of his business. We're "preaching to the choir" so to speak. I'll bet he's more interested in making music then selling it. That said, it does sound to me that instituting some basic corporate policies (and spending some money on technology) would mitigate that. I hope he understands that he/they have an opportunity unprecidented in audio. And now a responsibility Who knows for sure though. Maybe the money just isn't there. Maybe the effort just isn't worth it to him personally. Go ahead and *try* to fill the void...

 

All that said, HD Tracks could be *the* place to get hires and UNCOMPRESSED music and be what iTunes is to the compressed (read - crap) music industry. As many of the tweens (and older) experience the difference I think they will care as they can afford better and get older. I know that's been my experience.

 

Advice is cheap. I just gave some. The fact is though that we currently don't have *anywhere* else to get mainstream music from in an uncompressed format. And let's be real - we want music people can listen to every day. Not some stuff, that while artistically has merit, you don't want to hear everyday (or show others). We want mainstream. Music you are familiar with. Music you can bop to. Like The Eagles. Like Metallica (which I thought was quite good from HDT BTW). Etc adnausium...

 

So here we are. I hope that they take the opportunity to tame this "dragon". I think they have the ability (as some downloads have certainly shown).

 

I for one am hopeful. And good luck to us all who appreciate the sound of music!

 

Jeff

 

PS - I'm not done with HDT... Caveat emptor and all that. And the "In Session" re-release was sweet. Very enjoyable.

 

[jmall]

Sorry Folks,

 

My caveat emptor comment raised another quick comment.

 

I have to say, we *did* get what we paid for. When I play a hires track it shows as 96/176/192. The problem is *expectation* vs *customer reality*.

 

Anyone selling a product always has to deal with that basic fact.

 

Jeff

 

[wdomeika]

*nt*

 

[Priaptor]

"I for one am hopeful"

 

Since people and geed are involved, I have no hope, but then again, I am a misanthrope, so take my opinion for what it is worth.

 

[Jay192]

let's let their ACTIONS speak.

 

As I was doing some background reading on this topic I came across this old thread:

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Look-what-Linn-sold-2496

 

and a related update:

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Update-Linn

 

It looks like when Linn had a similar problem they were upfront and communicative about investigating the actual issue and solved it.

 

One early comment in the first link:

"Submitted by Soundproof on Tue, 11/09/2010 - 02:43.

 

"From last year ...

I started this thread last year:

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/HDtracks-bumps-or-drawn-masters

 

When I became quite convinced that something wasn't quite as it should be.

 

And I'm still calling for a "statement of provenance" from the high-rez companies. They should clearly state the original source - the manner in which it has been pulled to digital - and the specific resolution of the material, as verified by them before being made available.

 

This they're not doing, and that doesn't serve their purpose, if that is to grow a wide user base. I've become skeptical of high-rez claims as a default setting on my meter, these days."

 

Hear hear!

 

In the same thread an excerpt from firedog:

 

"Submitted by firedog on Fri, 11/12/2010 - 04:31. Joined: 12/11/2009 .:. Offline .:. Comments: 453

24/88 from HD Tracks

Soundproof - I agree with your comment:

 

"The fact that HD-tracks doesn't state clearly how these files came to be. That shouldn't be so hard. Just write a couple of sentences about how the 24/88.2 was pulled, and by whom, and that HD-Tracks have checked the files - and I'm a happy buyer snapping up this material faster than you can punch the digits for the total sale."

 

On other sites and other Threads, Bruce at Puget Sound has responded that he does the conversion from SACD to hi-res files for HDTracks.

 

From various postings by him, employees of HD Tracks, and emails sent to me by HDTracks, it appears that the following is true:

 

When an SACD is the Hi-res source of the files, it is converted to 24/88 as this is the "natural" integer multiple for SACD.

 

When HDTracks makes a digital transcription of an analogue file, they transcribe at 24/192 and then downsample to 24/96 for sale purposes. (Some other material is supplied to them in hi-res master format, 24/96 or above.)

 

Almost all the "non hi-res" posted by HDTracks and sold as hi-res was the result of SACD with fake hi-res (read "upsampled redbook turned into SACD") material that was licensed to HDTracks as hi-res. They thought it was true hi-res and converted it to 24/88 for sale.

 

Acc'd to Bruce at Puget Sound, he is now very diligent about testing SACDs to see if they are true hi-res before he converts them for HDTracks. They weren't so diligent about this in the past, until users alerted them to several possible fake hi-res files.

 

Again acc'd to posts by Bruce, it isn't quite as easy as we think to tell fake from real hi-res, as often "tricks" occur so that a cursory examination of an SACD makes it look like real hi-res when it isn't. And unfortunately, apparently it isn't uncommon for SACDs to be fake hi-res. So Bruce says he now tests more thoroughly to make sure the SACD's are true hi-rez ...... "

 

Does HD Tracks, for some reasonable proportion of their products, merely 'rip' the SACD??

 

Is this one possible reason why no more information hasn't been forthcoming?

 

anyway - let's let HD Track's action speak

 

 

 

[Jonathan Tinn]

If you saw Bruce, I was the person sitting directly to his right side.

 

Why so aggressive?

 

[almaatakz]

 

I sent a message to HDT yesterday:

 

-----------------------------

Name: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

Comments: Hello, HD Tracks Team, Given the recent issues with the quality of some of the albums highlighted on the likes of Computeraudiphile.com and in order to restore the confidence of customes, would you please publish a clear description of your quality assurance process and state, for each album offered, the origin of the files clearly. Regards, your customer xxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

Email: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

--------------------------------

 

 

 

... and received the following reply today:

 

 

 

--------------------

Wednesday, 19 October, 2011 19:03

From: "HDtracks Customer Support"

To: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

Yes, we have already been and will continue to do that.

 

Sincerely,

 

Graham

 

Customer Support

--------------------------------

 

 

 

Hmmmm.... Where? No link or other reference...