AIFF Vs. WAV

[wgscott]

What is wrong with what Goldsdad has? afconvert is what I was also going to suggest...

 

[bdiament]

Hi Paul,

 

"...Does anyone have an un-encumbered music clip we could create the files with and redistribute to folks here? Some kind of a test file or something?..."

 

Feel free to use one of the (.wav) samples on the Soundkeeper Format Comparison page.

 

It should be used only for the purposes of this test, on this forum.

 

The 24/192 sample of "Kote Moun Yo?" should do the trick (but you can use the 24/96 sample of "Dragon Boats" if you prefer).

Right-click on the "24/192" under "Kote Moun Yo?"(or "24/96" under "Dragon Boats" to download.

(Some PC users might need to remove the "?" from the "Kote Moun Yo?" file name if their machine won't open the file.)

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

 

[wgscott]

HDtracks have a free sampler, and if you download, they send you a 20% off coupon.

 

Of course, you never know if you are actually getting high res with them, but it makes it more fun.

 

Then convert to wav and we can start the games.

 

OK, the first track looks ok, so I converted using XLD to wav, and then did the following (just so we are all on the same page):

 

 

zsh-% ls

0-Liner NotesHD333333333333.pdf 3-Big Bad Girl br ifromi Louis.flac

1-Nikolai RimskyKorsakov The S.flac 4-Misery br ifromi Unauthorize.flac

1-Nikolai RimskyKorsakov The S.wav 5-Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart Viol.flac

2-Lucia br ifromi Entre Cada P.flac HDtracks 9624 Ultimate Download Experience.jpg

zsh-% mv *.wav example.wav

zsh-% afinfo example.wav

File: example.wav

File type ID: WAVE

Data format: 2 ch, 96000 Hz, 'lpcm' (0x0000000C) 24-bit little-endian signed integer

no channel layout.

estimated duration: 234.645333 sec

audio bytes: 135155712

audio packets: 22525952

bit rate: 4608000 bits per second

packet size upper bound: 6

audio data file offset: 44

optimized

source bit depth: I24

----

zsh-% afconvert -f caff -d BEI24 example.wav example_BE.caf

zsh-% afconvert -f caff -d LEI24 example.wav example_LE.caf

zsh-% afinfo example_BE.caf

File: example_BE.caf

File type ID: caff

Data format: 2 ch, 96000 Hz, 'lpcm' (0x0000000E) 24-bit big-endian signed integer

no channel layout.

estimated duration: 234.645333 sec

audio bytes: 135155712

audio packets: 22525952

audio 22525952 valid frames + 0 priming + 0 remainder = 22525952

bit rate: 4608000 bits per second

packet size upper bound: 6

audio data file offset: 4096

optimized

source bit depth: I24

sound check:

approximate duration in seconds 234.645

source bit depth I24

----

zsh-% afinfo example_LE.caf

File: example_LE.caf

File type ID: caff

Data format: 2 ch, 96000 Hz, 'lpcm' (0x0000000C) 24-bit little-endian signed integer

no channel layout.

estimated duration: 234.645333 sec

audio bytes: 135155712

audio packets: 22525952

audio 22525952 valid frames + 0 priming + 0 remainder = 22525952

bit rate: 4608000 bits per second

packet size upper bound: 6

audio data file offset: 4096

optimized

source bit depth: I24

sound check:

approximate duration in seconds 234.645

source bit depth I24

----

zsh-%

 

[4est]

All of my experimenting has been done on redbook.

 

[wgscott]

Can you check with this and see if you hear a difference? Or pick something that we all can access for free or a couple of bucks?

 

[VandyMan]

I'll respect that some people hear a difference between WAV and AIFF. However, having written commercial software that produces both file formats, I can tell you that they are nearly identical for uncompressed LPCM audio. Encoding and decoding of either one is dead simple. The most difficult part is handling byte-ordering (which takes one line of code in C). There is no resonable technical explanation for audible differences between the formats.

 

 

 

[4est]

Precisely VandyMan, hence the conundrum.

 

[Paul R]

afconvert is perfect, I think. To be honest, I forgot about it and was a bit embarrassed at suggesting something (XLD) that didn't work.

 

 

-Paul

 

 

[Paul R]

I guess we can cook up a small set based on that sample, and if Forrest can still hear a difference, we are in business.

 

Forrest, you won't have any trouble playing hi-res will you? If you don't hear a difference, we can go find a redbook sample somewhere.

 

-Paul

 

I'm not sure the HDTracks sample can be redistributed Bill, but it is a great find anyway. Thanks!

 

[VandyMan]

>>precisely VandyMan, hence the conundrum.

 

4est, no conundrum for me. Knowing there is no resonable technical explanation and that human perception is frequently inaccurate, I accept that the placebo effect is the most likely explanation. I respect that others have drawn a different conclusion, but I'm not swayed by the evidence presented here thus far.

 

 

[4est]

Oh, I can play hi res, I just have very little interest in it personally. Frankly I am amazed at how good redbook is sounding these days using Fidelia to send (you guessed it) wav files via i2s to my DIY Buffalo DAC. The funny part is that I got interested in computer audio as a means to play tunes acceptably in lieu of vinyl. These days I play little vinyl and desperately need to find a new phono stage to replace the ARC SP 10 that I sold to buy my Weiss. Silly me, now I need to sell the Weiss...

 

[4est]

There is no evidence, and far be it for me to sway anyone to do anything or really care for that matter. I wish that I had never tried as now I am stuck with either: a broken computer, poor system set up or a delusional mind. None of which really thrill me...

 

[Paul R]

@Forrest

 

Keep your eye on the spinning crystal...

Watch how the light reflects from the crystal...

You are getting very sleepy...

Very sleepy....

You are in my power... (bwaaah haa haa haa!)

You will believe anything I say....

MP3 Audio files recorded at 128bps sound better than CDs...

Also, there is no difference between WAV and AIF files

No difference at all. They sound exactly the same...

Remember this when you wake up...

Remember....

Wake up... .

 

 

 

 

[bdiament]

Hi Paul,

 

The same page I linked to earlier also has 16/44 (i.e. Redbook) samples of each song if that is how you choose to go. I mentioned the high res first because I figured the more information the file contains, the easier it would be to hear differences.

 

As an aside, the originals were recorded and mastered in .aif format.

I placed the samples up as .wav files only because I thought more folks' systems could play .wav than could play .aif (though this may not be as true as it used to be).

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

 

[4est]

behind the eight ball.

 

Any one whom thinks that this is placebo ala expectation bias has no clue how much I hate this little diddy. As Roch and Ted-b have stated, it is a real PITA. I have resorted to making wav duplicates of some favorites, leaving them in the folder that the aif files are in. Somehow by making copies via iTunes, it maintains some of the metadata in Fidelia- until I play the track. Then the data disappears until I restart Fidelia.

 

I just cannot stomach going through and fixing data for all of my files if I were to batch convert them. Imagine, 2000 cds sorted by track name and number only. I am already a bit ADD, the thought of that makes me shudder.

 

If it were only that easy Paul...

 

[wgscott]

I think a lot of us are taking your observation very seriously. Don't despair.

 

[ted_b]

"I just want to tell....good luck. We're all counting on you." (from Airplane)

 

[twist222]

Wgscott,

 

Did you get the above information on the 3 files using a Mac or a PC ?

 

Miska kindly posted how to get the information from a hexdump from the command line. I have limited computer knowledge but I assume this is the DOS command line in windows ? Is there a way to obtain similar information on a Mac ?

I am not a highly experienced computer person so please excuse me if I have it all wrong.

 

For music use I have a G5 powermac running on Tiger with iTunes 9 and a 2009 Mac Mini running Snow Leopard and iTunes 10 and would be interested to see if the produce the same big or little endian Aiff files.

 

Regards

Mark

 

 

[wgscott]

This is the unix command line in OS X. I don't have access to a PC.

 

I think you can do a hex dump on OS X as well. I doubt I have done it, so I will need to see what the syntax is. But since afinfo told me it worked, I didn't bother to hex dump it, especially since I have no idea how to interpret the output.

 

[twist222]

Thanks wgscott based on your info, a goggle search and a bit of playing around I have now got afinfo working.

 

For others who are less experienced like me here is the beginners version of how to use afinfo to check on a Mac.

 

Open terminal (Applications folder> Utilities folder then click on Terminal.app)

Type afinfo then a space then the file you want checked. For the music file I want checked I open finder find the track in my music library than use copy, than paste in terminal.

 

For me in terminal what I enter looks like this

 

afinfo /Mark/Music/Paradise Motel/Still Life/09 F Heart.aif

 

If you then hit enter and you should get something that looks like this

 

 

File: /Mark/Music/Paradise Motel/Still Life/01 Bad Light.aif

File type ID: AIFF

Data format: 2 ch, 44100 Hz, 'lpcm' (0x0000000E) 16-bit big-endian signed integer

no channel layout.

estimated duration: 316.493 sec

audio bytes: 55829424

audio packets: 13957356

bit rate: 1411200 bits per second

packet size upper bound: 4

audio data file offset: 54

not optimized

 

 

Or for a wave file

 

File: /Mark/Music/McKisko/Glorio/02 02 02 The Hollow Boat.wav

File type ID: WAVE

Data format: 2 ch, 44100 Hz, 'lpcm' (0x0000000C) 16-bit little-endian signed integer

no channel layout.

estimated duration: 165.653 sec

audio bytes: 29221248

audio packets: 7305312

bit rate: 1411200 bits per second

packet size upper bound: 4

audio data file offset: 44

optimized

 

The easy way

 

Hope this helps others and apologies to those with more experience

 

Regards

 

Mark

 

 

 

[4est]

The wav files sound less metallic/mechanical with better decay and a blacker background. It was actually tougher than I'd first thought, but it was long day in my wood shop. Even with ear muffs I notice a difference in my hearing at night if we have used a lot of the big equipment that day.

 

Once you hear/know the difference of wav, it is not that hard to notice- it has a signature.

 

Interestingly, what seems like a little bit of wash or haze in 44k1 aif coalesces into music in the 192k aif. Both aif seem to be louder, but adds to the 192k kick. I dunno, I may have to try again, although I really doubt this is all my imagination. My files are mostly all aif, when I play them I can hear it. I am really clueless as to how to go about a switch, but I will have to soon.

 

[Paul R]

The link below will download a .zip file that has four copies of the a 16/44.1 track in it that Barry has graciously allowed us to use for the purpose of testing here. It will download from my personal webspace on mobile me, due to the file size.

 

 

PLEASE BE AWARE

These files may not be redistributed.

They may be used only for the purposes of this test, on this forum.

Remember these are copyrighted materials!

 

Download Sample Files Here

 

 

The download includes the original .WAV file from Barry's site, and copies of the file converted to Big Endian and Little Endian CAF format, and a copy in big endian AIFF format.

 

These were converted on a Mac running OSX Lion, using afconvert as detailed previously in this thread.

 

You will not be able to play the CAF files in iTunes! You need Audivarna, Decibel, Fidelia, Quicktime Player, etc. to play the CAF files.

 

Why CAF files? Simple - CoreAudio will not write AIFF files in little endian format. CAF files are however, very close, we think.

 

Please listen to all four tracks, or portions of them, and post back to let us know if you can hear any differences.

 

Thanks -Paul Raulerson

 

 

 

P.S. In the time it took me to do this, I see you guys have already gone about doing it too. This is just for convenience then. -Paul

 

 

 

 

[twist222]

Looking at the files on my music server all my AIFF files are big endian and all my Wave files are little endian.

 

This is consistent with Miska's advice above.

 

So on my Mac's I do have a difference between AIFF and Wave files.

 

I will have to have a few listening tests to see if this translates to a difference in sound on my systems.

 

Regards

 

Mark

 

[twist222]

Does anyone actually have an AIFF - C file which shows up as little endian ?

 

With Max I can produce CAF files in either big and little endian formats. As Paul has detailed above these will not play in iTunes.

 

Max also provides an option to convert to AIFC. These files play in iTunes but when I check them with afinfo I find the file is big endian.

 

Thought I would ask and see if someone does have a little endian AIFF- C file ?

 

Regards

 

Mark

 

[goldsdad]

"With Max I can produce CAF files"

 

Well spotted; most people will prefer using Max to using Terminal.