Magnepan 3.7: I give up

[bdiament]

Hi Forrest,

 

In my view, I'd leave the traps in the corners (but turn them so their "soft" side faces the Maggies).

 

That first reflection off the wall behind the speakers will be mitigated somewhat by moving the speakers away from that wall (I'd move them several feet, depending on dimension of the room along which they are facing).

 

Ideally, I'd want more traps, (at the half point and at the quarter points - on every wall). That is the arrangement I've found to work best in my studio/listening room and in some studios I've designed for others. Some pics below.

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

 

 

[audiozorro]

Perhaps it's time to revise the title of this forum topic. That is unless you feel that there is a chance in hell that your new Maggies won't work out for you.

 

In the meantime enjoy and keep us posted as you break them in.

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

I've got all of 16 hours on them so far, so, I fully expect that wherever I push and pull them today, they'll sound a bit different tomorrow.

 

My thought is to get them to at least 4' off the back wall. It'll be a while before I can "see" whether this is good enough, or whether or not 5' will be dramatically better. Again, I suspect that until the bass tunes in (I'm guessing another 6 weeks), it's a bit of a moot point.

 

I did turn the 'Traps around, though. Right now, the speakers are "pointing" a bit at and behind the listening position, and firing pretty much directly into the Tube Traps sitting in the corners. Both the first and second reflection points sport some GIK 242 acoustic panels though I haven't gone nuts trapping out the room. I did that and it felt dead.

 

I have the Room Lenses in, too. Not sure why. I don't think the speakers have enough lateral dispersion for them to get "activated" very much.

 

Barry, a question: where are your subs? I was wondering where to sit mine.

 

[bdiament]

Hi Scot,

 

In my experience, you'll hear 5' over 4' (and 6 over 5).

How long is the room? I'd start with the inside (toward center) of each speaker ~1/3 of that length from the wall behind the speakers (leaving ~1/3 the width between the speakers).

 

If trapping made the room sound "dead", I would submit either the traps were not well placed or they were the wrong kind of traps. (I'm not a fan of panel type traps.)

 

As far as bass, I find that Maggie magic bass begins to show up after ~100 hours of music (took me two weeks of all day music). To my ears, they're pretty much fully broken in at ~400 hours.

 

My subs are just behind and just outboard of my main pair (which are placed as I suggest above and in the article I linked to earlier). You can see them in the first photo in my previous post. (The top surface of the left one is reflecting the projected image from the wall behind the speakers.)

 

One more thing about placement: It can be an education hearing the change in the speakers' sound over time (as well as the changes in cables and other gear), so I'd consider placement now rather than later (and refine it later if it turns out to need it - my experience tells me this will not necessarily be the case if they are well placed sooner).

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

Barry,

 

The front wall of the room is just under 14' across.

 

1/3 of 14' is 4' (rounding down), so with the center of the speaker 4' from a side wall means the inner edge will be a full 5' from that side wall. This setup would leave just under 4' between the inner edges of the two speakers. That's a bit tight, don't you think?

 

I have them currently about ~18" off the side walls, so the tweeters are about 6.5' apart. FWIW, I'm sitting about 10' back, but can push the chair another foot back if I need to.

 

Bringing the speakers to 5' from the front wall is fine, but that's about it. The alcove where all this magic is happening is only ~16' deep (it's an alcove in a larger, open floor plan basement, so the "back wall" is actually ~40' back from the front wall).

 

As for the dead room, well, I have a LOT of panels. Yeah. I've stuffed many of them into that notch in the front wall, but I still have plenty.

 

I've written up my experience here: Too Many Room Treatments?. In short, my room is fighting me, and while it's possible to create a very damped listening environment, it's isn't very fun to listen to music in. I expect us to disagree on this, however. ;-)

 

Another question on the subs. I know you're a big fan of maintaining phase, so why wouldn't I want my subs sitting in parallel with the panels, or better still, 6" or so in front of them? Also, you prefer outside placement (which for me would be against the side wall) to putting them on the inside of the panels?

 

[bdiament]

Hi Scot,

 

My suggestion is to leave 1/3 of the room width between the speakers (not speaker center to speaker center). With a 14' width (168") that would come out to 56" between the speakers. With a properly treated room, this could easily be increased to 60" (perhaps more) with no issues.

 

For listening distance, I would suggest sitting just a little (say ~10%) further from either speaker than the centers of the speakers are from each other. (With the speakers in the right position, if you lean forward and backward from a seat near the correct position, you can hear things "snap" into focus when your head is in the right place.)

 

At your current placement and distance, my opinion is you are getting a larger percentage of room (and a smaller percentage of direct sound) than is optimal.

 

Panels (to my ears) do make things dead because they work more in the treble range and (in spite of advertising claims and their graphs) don't do much (again, to my ears) for the bottom. So the treble is increasingly "controlled" and the relatively untamed bottom takes over.

 

The only damping I'd place in a listening room would be at the early reflection points for the treble (one per speaker per room boundary, i.e. for stereo, two on each room boundary). Not one square inch more. I'd also address the room's resonant modes at the fundamental (corners), first harmonic (half points) and second harmonic (quarter points). This produces very different results than a bunch of treble absorption all over.

 

As to sub placement and phase, my subs cross over at 30 Hz, which has a wavelength of approximately 37.6 feet. To be honest, I can't hear the slightest phase distortion due to the subs being inches behind (and outboard of) the main pair.

 

I place the subs outboard because this excites the room less (assuming the main pair is placed as I suggested) than inboard placement would. They end up being nearer the 1/5 points rather than closer to the 1/2 point, where the first harmonic of the dimension of the wall behind them would be stirred.

 

The placement I suggest (for speakers and listening position) may seem small in some respects but I find the size of the listening space determines how large an isosceles triangle (between speakers and listening position) will fit without undue excitement of the room's resonant modes - even in a fully treated room. Maggies are fully capable of creating a soundstage that is larger than such a triangle would suggest at first but not if they are hampered by the room.

 

All just my perspective of course.

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

Barry -- I'm asking for your opinion, so you certainly don't need to apologize for it. When you're wrong, I'll tell you.

 

LOL.

 

Anyway, so I think I follow you about placement. I personally don't like to sit that close (8' away from speakers only 7' apart), but I gave it a shot -- and guess what? Sounds awesome. ;-)

 

If you're not a fan of panels, what do you use at the 1/2 way points (which would also be about the same spot as the 1st reflection point, BTW, at least in my room). More Tube Traps? Something smaller?

 

I now have 2' of space between the speakers' outer edge and the wall. Which leaves me 2' of space to cram a sub into, but they'd be a bit snug with the speakers (they're 16" cubes). Suggestions on precise placement are very welcome.

 

 

 

[bdiament]

Hi Scot,

 

Glad you like the new placement. I submit it will get even better if you get closer to the suggestions I made.

 

Are your subs forward firing? (I mean, is the driver on the front; any real sub is going to be omnidirectional.) If so, unless you're going to really go for the 1/3 points for the main pair (I would without a doubt), I might try the subs slightly inboard of the main pair to avoid having the subs near the corners.

 

For room treatment, I use cylinders everywhere. 16" in the corners and half points, 9" at the quarter points. (Not a flat panel in sight - that isn't a Maggie. ;-})

 

By the way, with (what I consider) properly placed speakers and listening position, the reflection points are not at the half point. In my room, they're a bit toward the listening position. Of course, if the speakers are close to the side walls, the side wall reflections will be closer to the speakers.

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

 

[Paul R]

One other thing, the changes are fast and furious while they are breaking in. Keep a good notebook - it is quite eye opening to read back over it after a few hundred hours of play.

 

Amazing differences.

 

-Paul

 

 

[Gregor Samsa]

"Panels (to my ears) do make things dead because they work more in the treble range and (in spite of advertising claims and their graphs) don't do much (again, to my ears) for the bottom"

 

I used to think the same thing before Mye stands. I can't tell you how much of a difference they make in the lower octaves.

 

Grant is a good guy. Lives just up the road. No commercial relationship; just a satisfied customer. Look on the planar asylum. Very few, if any, dissatisfied customers.

 

[bdiament]

Hi Gregor,

 

I believe there was a misunderstanding.

I was not referring to panel speakers (e.g. Maggies).

I was referring to the flat panels sold as "bass traps".

 

With Maggies, there is no "dead", all is quite alive, with or without stands... and very much alive when "afloat" on good roller bearings.

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

 

[curbfeeler]

Can’t imagine why nobody has mentioned this yet, so here goes. Nearly everyone who has experience with the 3.7 has said in print or on the phone that the tweeters need to be situated inboard for the best imaging. I see that Mr. Diament has his 3.6 tweets inboard as well. I spoke with Mark Winey of Magnepan about this, and he says phase correctness is optimal with the tweets inboard.

I took delivery of the 3.7 Tuesday, and they were immediately placed on the Myesound stands that had hosted my 3.6. I screwed Stillpoints OEM feet onto the stands in lieu of the supplied brass spikes. These had an effect on the bass, becoming more profound and articulate. Resolution at all registers improved. The sense of the venue improved.

As to break in, Tuesday evening I started with no attenuation of the midrange and tweeter, but the shrill highs and lack of midrange tonal density were unbearable. The imaging was diffuse, it was hard to hear the individual parts distinctly and the sense of the venue was not good. Wednesday I padded down the tweeter and the mids with the supplied 1 ohm resistors. Better, but things still sounded thin. Then at what I estimate to be 5 hours of use the sound was more like my 3.6. This is akin to the experience I had while breaking in the 3.6. Then, in the middle of an LP things improved noticeably. The 3.6 took quite some time to exhibit the best bass performance, so I expect the 3.7 will improve over the next little while as well.

http://tinyurl.com/3uue9f8

My speakers are 4’9” from the rear wall to the inside edges. The left speaker is 3’4” from the adjacent wall. The speakers are separated by 7’3” measured from the inboard edges. My listening position is 8’ before the plane of a line drawn between the centers of the panels. That places my ears 9’6” from either panel. The tweeters point directly at my listening position. The entire space is 24’ X 36’, with the short axis being front to back with respect to the speaker placement.

I had placed the tweeter on the outside when using the 3.6. Interestingly, with well-recorded material like Chesky or Mapleshade, the 3.7 image from a little behind the plane of the loudspeakers to points deep in the soundstage. The 3.6 always seemed to start at about the plane of the speakers.

Intentionally placed sounds meant to occur well to the left or right of the speaker, as with Roger Waters The Ballad of Bill Hubbard, seem to image more solidly, and the sound is more distinct now.

Eventually there will be more diffusion/absorption behind the speakers, when the shelving has been erected to house my LP collection.

I think one can accelerate the break in time by using deep high amplitude bass tracks based on my experiences with both the 3.6 and 3.7. My SPL meter has swung to 98 dB from around 86 dB C weighted fast response while stressing the 3.7.

 

[Jim Smith]

Back in the day when I wrote the T-1D, MG-1, & MG-2 owner's manuals, the inside tweeter position toe-in had to be greater than when the tweeter was on the outside.

 

In general, we didn't want the sound arriving from the tweeter section before the mids. So, with the tweeters outside, the speakers cross-fired a little behind you.

 

With tweeters on the inside, there was an audible - and very measurable - irregularity in the response due to the tweeter arrival time being too early. The only way to make them have the correct tonal balance with the tweeter on the inside was to have them cross-fire in front of the listener's head at about the same distance (time arrival) as when the tweeters were on the outside.

 

They may have changed the crossover in some way to offset this issue - although I'm not sure how they could do it while keeping it simple. I hadn't heard about this change, but maybe it happened.

 

Since they are mirror-imaged, the major reason for either decision is often that of room geometry/separation; sound-staging; & overall accuracy of sound.

 

[4est]

Here I am running my 1.6qrs with the tweeters on the outside with the center of the speaker pointing to my shoulder on the same side. Room is about 15'x21'x8'. Speaker edges about 2' from the side walls and 6' from the back walls. Listening distance is about 9-10'. This is a "rough" placement that I have not mussed with much while I repair my ESLs. It is working well for me, but I know that it could get better.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

"I believe there was a misunderstanding.

I was not referring to panel speakers (e.g. Maggies).

I was referring to the flat panels sold as "bass traps"."

 

Doh!

 

I still like Mye stands. I'm very intrigued by the guy who wants to combine them with your roller bearing approach.

 

[curbfeeler]

I used the 3.6 with tweeters outboard and pointed to a spot not far behind the listening position for the very reasons you cited. I think the new quasi-ribbon drivers of the 3.7 are a game changer with respect to toe-in. These are probably faster than the older wire-bonded-to-panel drivers, requiring little or no delay with respect to the ribbon tweeter.

 

[curbfeeler]

Break-in is occurring much more rapidly than anticipated.

The MG 3.7 are now impressive, having the ability to dig new details out of familiar recordings. For instance, instruments or backing vocals well down in the mix are better resolved and reveal their acoustic space more fully. A sense of coherency, completeness, pervades it all. Articulation is deft. The midrange tone has become powerful and dynamic. Bass has improved pop and pulse. I expect the bass to improve more slowly during the running-in as was the case with the MG 3.6, and as most observers have reported. It’s already satisfying. More improvement will be gratifying.

One of my great pleasures is being able to hear fully the backup singers’ contributions. I’ve been startled at how immediate and apparent these are now.

 

 

[curbfeeler]

Gregor, try Stillpoints OEM or Ultra SS feet under your Myesound stands. See my comments earlier in this thread.

http://www.stillpoints.us/Stillponts/Ultras.html

 

 

[Jim Smith]

Actually as the diaphragm loosens up, its resonant frequency in each tuned section can ultimately drop up to 10 Hz. At least it used to be that way. It might not be as much with today's models, but that is still a major contributor to the changes heard with use and over time.

 

Plus this area has a subtle shift in output (it'll have a bit more), changing the spectral balance to a warmer, more relaxed sound.

 

And yes, that helps vocals in the mix as well.

 

 

 

[curbfeeler]

Jim, that's interesting information regarding Maggie break-in characteristics. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

Looks intriguing. What's between the Stillpoints and the carpet?

 

[curbfeeler]

That's a 69 cent ceramic tile under the Stillpoints OEM. Stillpoints are decoupling devices meant to terminate vibration as heat. I figured these would work best against a hard surface, but it may be of little consequence. Presently the speakers are sat on a concrete floor covered in asphalt tile, without the ceramic tiles pictured in my previous post. Paul Wakeen of Stillpoints thought it OK to put the OEM feet on carpet.

 

[curbfeeler]

Yesterday I placed a dedicated ground using stranded 6 gauge bare copper cable and copper connections from the Quantum QB8 to a copper pipe sunk into the earth outside the house.

 

It's day 6 for the MG 3.7 speakers, and it was time for the midrange padding resistors to go. These were needed during the settling period, but late last night I got the sense that the midrange was recessed.

 

Jerked them out and put the Magnepan-supplied jumpers treated with Caig DeOxit Gold in their place.

 

Wow! Back to the big fruited presentation of music I had enjoyed with the MG 3.6. And to my delight, the sound is more involving than ever.

 

 

[bdiament]

Giving some very serious thought to ordering a pair of 3.7s.

 

Looks like the "flying" external crossover is gone. Is that true?

And no more bi-wiring?

 

Of course, that would mean I'd put the current 3.6s up for sale.

They've served me well in my work and were indispensable in the creation of the first three Soundkeeper Recordings. (I'll probably master the fourth one -already recorded- on the 3.7s.)

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

[Paul R]

The little Desktops are about to come out, and they are supposed to sound like 3.7s. According to the Magnepan Ad and Guttenberg at least.

 

You might need a set of those too.

 

-Paul