Expectation Bias

[fas42]

3 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

There are no stacks of old newspapers on top of the speakers, how good could it be?

 

 

Ah, I forgot one of the most special tweaks - at a certain point, you replace the old newspapers with new newspapers ... this freshens up the SQ like you wouldn't believe ...

[pkane2001]

6 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Okay, close to 24 hours since this was posted - and no posts responding ... this tells me everything I need to know, .

 

The Edifiers have gradually been pushed to a point where they are about 95% there; the illusion holds, depending on how happy the DVD player is, to within a foot or so ...

 

Don't know what you expect, Frank. Unless my ear is right next to the speaker, I don't hear the sound coming out of it, directly. Is that your "trick"? You want to tell me that only you can do this? Seriously? You're again assuming too many things about others without a shred of evidence.

 

[pkane2001]

4 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Ah, I forgot one of the most special tweaks - at a certain point, you replace the old newspapers with new newspapers ... this freshens up the SQ like you wouldn't believe ...

 

Now you tell me! Is there a proper "age" for these newspapers? I'm afraid that a very recent one will have a little of that fresh, crisp paper sound... maybe ones that are a little faded will be more subtle, less bright?

 

[fas42]

5 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Don't know what you expect, Frank. Unless my ear is right next to the speaker, I don't hear the sound coming out of it, directly. Is that your "trick"? You want to tell me that only you can do this? Seriously? You're again assuming too many things about others without a shred of evidence.

 

 

Ah, so you do get this, yes?

 

Quote

Okay, let's do a role call ... who here has a system that can do the mono replay trick; that is, the soundstage remains completely disconnected from the speakers, irrespective of how far left or right of the centre of the two speakers you are?

 

[kumakuma]

41 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

The trouble here is, how does one evaluate "poor recording quality"?

 

 

Audible flaws in the recording that cause my attention to shift from the music to the recording. The most obvious would be the snap, crackle, pop of vinyl.

 

Quote

What I'm after is the sensation in the brain when you listen to the live music. As in, zero PA nonsense in the picture. Anyone who has no trouble distinguishing live music, from the reproduction of the same music event, I would suggest has a brain that is sensitive enough to the difference.

 

I enjoy both live music and music from my system equally well although both are quite different. I don't know what "PA nonsense" is but I suspect that it isn't something I want either.

[kumakuma]

23 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Okay, close to 24 hours since this was posted - and no posts responding ... this tells me everything I need to know, .

 

The Edifiers have gradually been pushed to a point where they are about 95% there; the illusion holds, depending on how happy the DVD player is, to within a foot or so ...

 

I can't speak for anyone else but I couldn't figure out what you were talking about or why it's a "trick".

 

Your explanation above doesn't help. What does "within a foot or so" mean? A foot to the left or right of the center of speakers?  

[fas42]

1 hour ago, kumakuma said:

 

I enjoy both live music and music from my system equally well although both are quite different. I don't know what "PA nonsense" is but I suspect that it isn't something I want either.

 

IME, these days, as soon as a musician, or musicians, enter a space they have to plug in a PA rig. Doesn't matter if that space is the size of a living room, they feel undressed if they don't have this 'crutch' in operation. Annoys me intensely, and I steer clear of anything where this is doing, the usual, far too much damage.

 

54 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

I can't speak for anyone else but I couldn't figure out what you were talking about or why it's a "trick".

 

Your explanation above doesn't help. What does "within a foot or so" mean? A foot to the left or right of the center of speakers?  

 

It means a foot directly in front of a left, or a right speaker. Further back, but directly in front of one of the speakers, that speaker is 'invisible'; the soundstage hangs above and behind the cabinet.

[botrytis]

Frank, stop posting here, please. All you are doing showing people you really don't understand what you are doing or what you are trying to fix.

[kumakuma]

7 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

IME, these days, as soon as a musician, or musicians, enter a space they have to plug in a PA rig. Doesn't matter if that space is the size of a living room, they feel undressed if they don't have this 'crutch' in operation. Annoys me intensely, and I steer clear of anything where this is doing, the usual, far too much damage.

 

 

Something like this?

 

https://www.sweetwater.com/sweetcare/articles/how-to-set-up-a-pa-system/

 

I've only ever seen such equipment used when the instruments/venue require. Maybe it's an Australian thing...

[fas42]

8 hours ago, hopkins said:

 

He's got a few articles on the topic, for example this one: http://www.moultonlabs.com/more/some_reminiscing/

 

 

Also, he gets things very wrong. As in, the loudspeakers not being right are the cause of bad sound - by that criterion, Wilson speakers are junk, because every rig I've heard using them has made some pretty awful noises - the reality is, what you hear from a system is the sum total of the behaviour of all the components in it, at that moment.

[kumakuma]

18 minutes ago, fas42 said:

It means a foot directly in front of a left, or a right speaker. Further back, but directly in front of one of the speakers, that speaker is 'invisible'; the soundstage hangs above and behind the cabinet.

 

That's the trick? I want my money back!!!

[fas42]

4 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

Something like this?

 

https://www.sweetwater.com/sweetcare/articles/how-to-set-up-a-pa-system/

 

I've only ever seen such equipment used when the instruments/venue require. Maybe it's an Australian thing...

 

The PA can be any size; but the main characteristic is that the liveness of the sound is completely killed; it becomes squashed, with the dynamics sucked out it, with plenty of distortion as seasoning.

 

Worst offender was Billy Joel's drummer doing a presentation of how he approached his craft; the drums naturally filled the room, but a stupid sound reinforcement setup then made a complete mess of what you were hearing.

[fas42]

12 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

That's the trick? I want my money back!!!

 

The point of accurate replay is to have no audibility of the reproduction chain; the only thing you are aware of is the presentation of the musical content. If you can hear "the speaker working", that breaks the illusion. I've had audiophiles disturbed by the fact they can't hear the speaker; to them, it's important to know how the drivers are working ... ummm, yeah .

[kumakuma]

4 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

The PA can be any size; but the main characteristic is that the liveness of the sound is completely killed; it becomes squashed, with the dynamics sucked out it, with plenty of distortion as seasoning.

 

Worst offender was Billy Joel's drummer doing a presentation of how he approached his craft; the drums naturally filled the room, but a stupid sound reinforcement setup then made a complete mess of what you were hearing.

 

Your example is an extreme situation that isn't particularly relevant.

 

The reality is that any band that contains non-acoustic instruments is going to need amplification, mixing, and speakers. 

[kumakuma]

4 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

The point of accurate replay is to have no audibility of the reproduction chain; the only thing you are aware of is the presentation of the musical content. If you can hear "the speaker working", that breaks the illusion. I've had audiophiles disturbed by the fact they can't hear the speaker; to them, it's important to know how the drivers are working ... ummm, yeah .

 

All I hear from my speakers is music. What does a "speaker working" sound like?

[fas42]

2 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

Your example is an extreme situation that isn't particularly relevant.

 

The reality is that any band that contains non-acoustic instruments is going to need amplification, mixing, and speakers. 

 

Huhh? A band may have a synthesizer, and electric bass, say - and each has its own sound output amp and speakers. They just sit up on the stage, and contribute to the overall, like the pure acoustic instruments.

[fas42]

3 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

All I hear from my speakers is music. What does a "speaker working" sound like?

 

It means that you have no difficulty at pointing to exactly where the sound is coming from, which is the front of the speaker.

[kumakuma]

3 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Huhh? A band may have a synthesizer, and electric bass, say - and each has its own sound output amp and speakers. They just sit up on the stage, and contribute to the overall, like the pure acoustic instruments.

 

How would a vocalist be heard over such amplified instruments?

 

From the article I linked to previously:

 

Quote

 

What is a PA system?

 

A public address (PA) system is for amplifying the human voice. In its simplest form, it has a microphone, mixer, and loudspeakers. It all starts with the microphone (mic), which converts sound pressure to voltage. That means when you speak or sing into the mic, its magnetic force outputs a small amount of voltage. That voltage is then sent to either a mixer or loudspeaker for amplification. Once boosted by a power amplifier, the voltage is so high that it forces the speakers to move and recreate the sound pressure changes which first entered the mic. The result is a much louder sounding voice.

 

 

[kumakuma]

7 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

It means that you have no difficulty at pointing to exactly where the sound is coming from, which is the front of the speaker.

 

How would stereo imaging (phantom center) work if the sound appears to be coming from two different cabinets?

[fas42]

Just now, kumakuma said:

 

How would stereo imaging work if the sound appears to be coming from two different cabinets?

 

Because you sit in the middle of them - hence, the "sweet spot"; that limited area of the room where the illusion manifests; outside of it, the mirage collapses. What competent playback delivers is a sweet spot which encompasses the entire room; even behind the speakers.

[kumakuma]

2 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Because you sit in the middle of them - hence, the "sweet spot"; that limited area of the room where the illusion manifests; outside of it, the mirage collapses. What competent playback delivers is a sweet spot which encompasses the entire room; even behind the speakers.

 

Sure, Frank.

 

And Donald Trump can declassify documents simply by thinking about it...

 

[fas42]

10 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

How would a vocalist be heard over such amplified instruments?

 

 

You specifically said,

 

Quote

The reality is that any band that contains non-acoustic instruments is going to need amplification, mixing, and speakers.

 

Didn't know that the human voice was a, "non-acoustic instrument" ...

 

 

[fas42]

1 minute ago, kumakuma said:

 

Sure, Frank.

 

And Donald Trump can declassify documents simply by thinking about it...

 

 

Which points out that you have never experienced this ...

[kumakuma]

1 minute ago, fas42 said:

 

Which points out that you have never experienced this ...

 

You are correct, sir.

 

I've also never experienced levitation during my daily mediation sessions, walking through walls, and breathing underwater.

[botrytis]

 

Band under water?