Music Streaming

[Rockophile221]

 

Can anyone point me to an article or video that explains the pro's and cons of different ways to stream.

 

Currently I stream Tidal (HiFi) through my smart tv to my AVR via HDMI. I'm considering the use of an external DAC and exploring different options.

 

Things of interest;

Smart TV via Toslink to DAC

To me it seems the only advantage to a dedicated streamer is the ability to control it from phone/tablet. 

USB-C from phone/tablet to USB-B to DAC don't hear about anyone doing this.

Use of laptop, every time I read about this I get more confused.  

 

Any info would be greatly appreciated !!!

[DuckToller]

Salut Rockophile,

the use of a dedicated streamer (of your choice) is imho much more about what you want to achieve in terms of comfort,  expenses and quality. This is very much dependend on your existing system and it's environment.

Some questions:

Q1 What is your budget?

Q2 Which is your preferred control option (remote/tablet/ phone/computer) ?

Q3 Do you use it with other sources than Tidal?

Q4 Where is the placement of your system hardware?

Q5 Preference for fiber/Ethernet/Wi-Fi?

Q6 Do you use headphones & dedicaded HP ?

Q7 Do you have a preference for any special DAC or digital signal transmission

Q8 Do you use a dedicated stereo amplifier?

(...)

Just to start approaching your needs in order to give you some meaningful response..

Best, Tom

[PeterG]

Hi Rock--with all these things, we need to understand the total context--do you just want something that's as easy as possible, or are you working on something that it closer to a Honda-level hifi (with a focus on sound quality) and you're staying at that level, or is your goal more of a BMW-ish hifi?  So in addition to Duck's questions, you need to let us know what you're using for an amplifier, and speakers; and if you're sticking with those or considering a change.  If you're considering a change, let us know your total budget.  Also, the external DAC you mentioned is likely to improve sound quality dramatically.

[DuckToller]

here are some resources broadly dealing with the topic

 

[Rockophile221]

At this point I have no preferences or a budget. I'm simply exploring the options I've listed. 

 

My plans are to enhance my steaming SQ via an external DAC. 

I only use TIdal HiFi.

No headphones.

Don't know if I'll use the Anthem 540 AVR when it arrives or build a separate 2channel set up.  

 

Again I'm just trying to understand the pro's and cons to what I've listed above.

[DuckToller]

1 minute ago, Rockophile221 said:

Again I'm just trying to understand the pro's and cons to what I've listed above.

pro

- almost unlimited acces to music (not exclusive for Tidal - Qobuz, Spotify, Amazon, Apple, Deezer are same/same)
- comfortably use a tablet / phone for navigating
- no need for local music sources (CD/Records/Tape/R2R/your children chanting chorals like "Amazing Grace" ..)
- no need to spend money for local content
- with a given investment probably the cheapest way to achieve audio-phidelity

cons
- Quite often you can't figure out which is the provenance of the recording you're listening to and you may have difficulties to find exactly the recording you were looking for.
- Most providers lack basic audiphile quality (unadultered CD-quality - FLAC) or better (unmolested Hi-Res - FLAC) - especially Tidal does have problems to serve it correctly and satisfying
- Dependend on your home network quality and your understanding how to enhance that network
- If you have established a comprehensive music collection with one provider, you may have difficulties to transfer it to another provider
- Software integration issues (your streaming provider - your control unit system on Android/IOS - Your playback software i.e. JRMC, ROON, Foobar, Audirvarna, others - your DAC firmware)
- Compared to TV -> AVR you need a higher complexity when using  Streamer -> Control by Tablet -> DAC -> Stereo Amp, especially when you love to have the visual via TV-Screen/Remote. Troubleshooting is less easy.

- for a audiophile fidelity the invest levels are limitless
- many people have reported to have better results with local sources, i.e. NVME/SSD within the streaming transport. Afaik, no scientific prove for that yet ... your personal perception/experience/opinion is king on that topic

 

on a side note:
- If you are using the basic Tidal level, I am not sure you need to invest big money for another Dac, same idea about Spotify or Amazon
- If you don't plan to use DSD or upsampling to higher rates than 24-bit/192kHz hires lossless audio (flac/pcm), you may not need a DAC that offers this services, which may limits your choice of selection and can save you money)
- If you aren't interested in ROON, the Roon-ready badge for the streamer can be avoided (costs extra money. usually)

- playing DIY around the Raspberry Pi builds (with/out DAC) allows you to achieve good quality for small money, likewise the Upstream HD DAC from Arylic
- If you go for a cheap Dac (i.e. Schiit Modius ... >200$), a WIIM Home at 99$ is a cheap bitperfect Wi-Fi streamer with Toslink output, which would allow you to stream bitperfect FLAC/PCM up to 24-bit/192kHz) for less than 300$, using your phone/tablet as controller with their app that integrates Tidal or Tidal connect. It is easy to spend more money, difficult to achieve comfort/quality for less.

All this is dependend on your level of interest and involvement ...

 

[davide256]

Anthem builds competent gear… I’d suggest holding off on a separate DAC purchase… right now you are like someone eating ice cream for the first time, you haven’t yet determined your “flavor” preferences. What would make sense is to buy a competent endpoint streamer that you could connect to the DAC section of the Anthem. Something like an iFi Zen Stream should help. Later when you have lived with the Anthem gear you will have a better idea of what lack needs fixing

[Rockophile221]

5 hours ago, DuckToller said:

on a side note:
- If you are using the basic Tidal level, I am not sure you need to invest big money for another Dac, same idea about Spotify or Amazon

I'm using Tidal HiFi not the free version.

- If you don't plan to use DSD or upsampling to higher rates than 24-bit/192kHz hires lossless audio (flac/pcm), you may not need a DAC that offers this services, which may limits your choice of selection and can save you money)

This is the biggest part of what I'm trying to understand..... I'm clueless. This why I'm asking about the differences in using TV, laptop, dedicated streamer and just using phone/table via usb cable.

- If you aren't interested in ROON, the Roon-ready badge for the streamer can be avoided (costs extra money. usually)

Don't need another monthly fee.

 

- playing DIY around the Raspberry Pi builds (with/out DAC) allows you to achieve good quality for small money, likewise the Upstream HD DAC from Arylic

Thought about this but again extra cost involved.

- If you go for a cheap Dac (i.e. Schiit Modius ... >200$), a WIIM Home at 99$ is a cheap bitperfect Wi-Fi streamer with Toslink output, which would allow you to stream bitperfect FLAC/PCM up to 24-bit/192kHz) for less than 300$, using your phone/tablet as controller with their app that integrates Tidal or Tidal connect. It is easy to spend more money, difficult to achieve comfort/quality for less.

Actually considering the Bitfrost or Ares2. But here again I need to explore and understand whatever DAC and if it's going to be a good choice with what ever I end up with.

I'm in the research stage of just trying to get a good understanding of the mechanics of streaming so I can make decisions down the road. Hopefully sooner than later.

 

 

[Rockophile221]

5 hours ago, davide256 said:

I’d suggest holding off on a separate DAC purchase…

Not going to do anything until I've had a little time with the 540.

Plans are to eventually replace an old CD player with a CD transport, thus the need for a DAC anyways.

Right now streaming is about 90% of my listening and why I'm focusing on that. 

[DuckToller]

8 minutes ago, Rockophile221 said:

on a side note:
- If you are using the basic Tidal level, I am not sure you need to invest big money for another Dac, same idea about Spotify or Amazon

I'm using Tidal HiFi not the free version.

Thus, Tidal may be one of your monthly fee problems, one that (Careful here starts personal opinion!) does not offer provenance and quality of recorded music in the way I would like them. AFAIK, Tidal is a solution to access music where Qobuz isn't available, but Qobuz would be my service of choice (in fact it is since 2019)  for lossless / Hi-Res music (without MQA adulteration)

- If you don't plan to use DSD or upsampling to higher rates than 24-bit/192kHz hires lossless audio (flac/pcm), you may not need a DAC that offers this services, which may limits your choice of selection and can save you money)

This is the biggest part of what I'm trying to understand..... I'm clueless. This why I'm asking about the differences in using TV, laptop, dedicated streamer and just using phone/table via usb cable.
DSD is  a signal encoding used in SACDs. And for some audiophile recordings, which enable you to listen DSD native.
It is different to PCM audio and needs  a certain decoding function from the DAC. Dependend on who you ask, DSD can be better or worst in audio performance given the analog filter used in the process. Many forists here have had excellent result using Miska's HQPlayer for over/upsampling to DSD plus modulation and filtering. If you look at other forums you will find doubts about that perhaps bc it's not double blind tested nor peer reviewed.
Another format for recording and playback is DXD (24/32-bit /3528kHz), which is not supported by all DAC chips.
Keep in mind that availabilty of originally recorded music in these formats are very limited, most of them are upsampled, as it is the case of many HiRes offers. Control about that is under the wing of the record labels ...

Generally, like in analog, where purists love something like straight wire with gain, in the digital domain you would like to have the signal remain unchanged in its digital transport until it arrives at the DAC digital input, At best, bitperfect.

- If you aren't interested in ROON, the Roon-ready badge for the streamer can be avoided (costs extra money. usually)

Don't need another monthly fee.
Understood. Foobar is a free alternative, JRMC is a reasonable One-off fee.

 

- playing DIY around the Raspberry Pi builds (with/out DAC) allows you to achieve good quality for small money, likewise the Upstream HD DAC from Arylic

Thought about this but again extra cost involved.
Much less than a BiFrost I would say, and you're good with a one-off donation for using something like PiCorePlayer/LMS or with a small /comfort montly fee Volumio (with streming service integration). Hard ware is definately cheaper, however availability of PIs seems to be limited at the moment. Generally, a good start.

- If you go for a cheap Dac (i.e. Schiit Modius ... >200$), a WIIM Home at 99$ is a cheap bitperfect Wi-Fi streamer with Toslink output, which would allow you to stream bitperfect FLAC/PCM up to 24-bit/192kHz) for less than 300$, using your phone/tablet as controller with their app that integrates Tidal or Tidal connect. It is easy to spend more money, difficult to achieve comfort/quality for less.

Actually considering the Bitfrost or Ares2. But here again I need to explore and understand whatever DAC and if it's going to be a good choice with what ever I end up with.
That is a lot of expense for a DAC when you haven't got the analog front end yet.
I am there with Davide256, spend on speaker/amp and limit the DAC expense, because the sound quality is foremost rooom/speaker/amp and DAC's are already at a level where it is difficult to differntiate on pure data points, the biggest differences imho are the quality of signal entry and output stage plus the usabilty /comfort. And how well it suits your expectation bias. A Bi-Frost is certainly a good start if you have a 2-4k  speaker/amp combination (some will disagree, but this purely is to give directions), if your  budget is 2000 all in, I would go like 300 Streaming/DAC, 100 cables and the rest for amp / speakers with the option of having a higher budget when using an integrated with DAC (and no DAC expenses).
 

I'm in the research stage of just trying to get a good understanding of the mechanics of streaming so I can make decisions down the road. Hopefully sooner than later.

[DuckToller]

1 hour ago, Rockophile221 said:

Not going to do anything until I've had a little time with the 540.

The 540 has Optical Audio In (Toslink). so using the WIIM as streaming option for either Tidal/Qobuz (both not supported by the 540) is the cheapest way to get bitperfect FLAC up to 24/192 quality to your speakers and find out if you like it better than - say - 16/44 (testable per app). You won't lose a lot if you wouldn't like it, about 30 $ including shipping if you sell the WIIM 2nd hand, I would estimate ...

OTOH, the Bi-Frost is a different kind of animal and coupling it with the iFi streamer must be about 700$ better than Modius/WIIM combo and 900$ better than just the WIIM with the 540. Perhaps? Difficult to answer, I would say: it is a path for upgrading experience.
However, content above 24/192 (DSD/DXD) would be somehow lost with the Bi-Frost, if not downsampled.
 

 

[davide256]

2 hours ago, DuckToller said:

3 hours ago, Rockophile221 said:

on a side note:
- If you are using the basic Tidal level, I am not sure you need to invest big money for another Dac, same idea about Spotify or Amazon

I'm using Tidal HiFi not the free version.

Thus, Tidal may be one of your monthly fee problems, one that (Careful here starts personal opinion!) does not offer provenance and quality of recorded music in the way I would like them. AFAIK, Tidal is a solution to access music where Qobuz isn't available, but Qobuz would be my service of choice (in fact it is since 2019)  for lossless / Hi-Res music (without MQA adulteration)

- If you don't plan to use DSD or upsampling to higher rates than 24-bit/192kHz hires lossless audio (flac/pcm), you may not need a DAC that offers this services, which may limits your choice of selection and can save you money)

This is the biggest part of what I'm trying to understand..... I'm clueless. This why I'm asking about the differences in using TV, laptop, dedicated streamer and just using phone/table via usb cable.
DSD is  a signal encoding used in SACDs. And for some audiophile recordings, which enable you to listen DSD native.
It is different to PCM audio and needs  a certain decoding function from the DAC. Dependend on who you ask, DSD can be better or worst in audio performance given the analog filter used in the process. Many forists here have had excellent result using Miska's HQPlayer for over/upsampling to DSD plus modulation and filtering. If you look at other forums you will find doubts about that perhaps bc it's not double blind tested nor peer reviewed.
Another format for recording and playback is DXD (24/32-bit /3528kHz), which is not supported by all DAC chips.
Keep in mind that availabilty of originally recorded music in these formats are very limited, most of them are upsampled, as it is the case of many HiRes offers. Control about that is under the wing of the record labels ...

Generally, like in analog, where purists love something like straight wire with gain, in the digital domain you would like to have the signal remain unchanged in its digital transport until it arrives at the DAC digital input, At best, bitperfect.

- If you aren't interested in ROON, the Roon-ready badge for the streamer can be avoided (costs extra money. usually)

Don't need another monthly fee.
Understood. Foobar is a free alternative, JRMC is a reasonable One-off fee.

 

- playing DIY around the Raspberry Pi builds (with/out DAC) allows you to achieve good quality for small money, likewise the Upstream HD DAC from Arylic

Thought about this but again extra cost involved.
Much less than a BiFrost I would say, and you're good with a one-off donation for using something like PiCorePlayer/LMS or with a small /comfort montly fee Volumio (with streming service integration). Hard ware is definately cheaper, however availability of PIs seems to be limited at the moment. Generally, a good start.

- If you go for a cheap Dac (i.e. Schiit Modius ... >200$), a WIIM Home at 99$ is a cheap bitperfect Wi-Fi streamer with Toslink output, which would allow you to stream bitperfect FLAC/PCM up to 24-bit/192kHz) for less than 300$, using your phone/tablet as controller with their app that integrates Tidal or Tidal connect. It is easy to spend more money, difficult to achieve comfort/quality for less.

Actually considering the Bitfrost or Ares2. But here again I need to explore and understand whatever DAC and if it's going to be a good choice with what ever I end up with.
That is a lot of expense for a DAC when you haven't got the analog front end yet.
I am there with Davide256, spend on speaker/amp and limit the DAC expense, because the sound quality is foremost rooom/speaker/amp and DAC's are already at a level where it is difficult to differntiate on pure data points, the biggest differences imho are the quality of signal entry and output stage plus the usabilty /comfort. And how well it suits your expectation bias. A Bi-Frost is certainly a good start if you have a 2-4k  speaker/amp combination (some will disagree, but this purely is to give directions), if your  budget is 2000 all in, I would go like 300 Streaming/DAC, 100 cables and the rest for amp / speakers with the option of having a higher budget when using an integrated with DAC (and no DAC expenses).
 

I'm in the research stage of just trying to get a good understanding of the mechanics of streaming so I can make decisions down the road. Hopefully sooner than later.

I’ve owned and sold an Ares 2; sound was kind of like an EL34 tube amp, rich and seductive in the mid range but reticent in the bass and treble. Good choice if you mostly play acoustic guitar, opera, not so good for complex rock and roll

[Rexp]

13 hours ago, DuckToller said:

pro

- almost unlimited acces to music (not exclusive for Tidal - Qobuz, Spotify, Amazon, Apple, Deezer are same/same)
- comfortably use a tablet / phone for navigating
- no need for local music sources (CD/Records/Tape/R2R/your children chanting chorals like "Amazing Grace" ..)
- no need to spend money for local content
- with a given investment probably the cheapest way to achieve audio-phidelity

cons
- Quite often you can't figure out which is the provenance of the recording you're listening to and you may have difficulties to find exactly the recording you were looking for.
- Most providers lack basic audiphile quality (unadultered CD-quality - FLAC) or better (unmolested Hi-Res - FLAC) - especially Tidal does have problems to serve it correctly and satisfying
- Dependend on your home network quality and your understanding how to enhance that network
- If you have established a comprehensive music collection with one provider, you may have difficulties to transfer it to another provider
- Software integration issues (your streaming provider - your control unit system on Android/IOS - Your playback software i.e. JRMC, ROON, Foobar, Audirvarna, others - your DAC firmware)
- Compared to TV -> AVR you need a higher complexity when using  Streamer -> Control by Tablet -> DAC -> Stereo Amp, especially when you love to have the visual via TV-Screen/Remote. Troubleshooting is less easy.

- for a audiophile fidelity the invest levels are limitless
- many people have reported to have better results with local sources, i.e. NVME/SSD within the streaming transport. Afaik, no scientific prove for that yet ... your personal perception/experience/opinion is king on that topic

 

on a side note:
- If you are using the basic Tidal level, I am not sure you need to invest big money for another Dac, same idea about Spotify or Amazon
- If you don't plan to use DSD or upsampling to higher rates than 24-bit/192kHz hires lossless audio (flac/pcm), you may not need a DAC that offers this services, which may limits your choice of selection and can save you money)
- If you aren't interested in ROON, the Roon-ready badge for the streamer can be avoided (costs extra money. usually)

- playing DIY around the Raspberry Pi builds (with/out DAC) allows you to achieve good quality for small money, likewise the Upstream HD DAC from Arylic
- If you go for a cheap Dac (i.e. Schiit Modius ... >200$), a WIIM Home at 99$ is a cheap bitperfect Wi-Fi streamer with Toslink output, which would allow you to stream bitperfect FLAC/PCM up to 24-bit/192kHz) for less than 300$, using your phone/tablet as controller with their app that integrates Tidal or Tidal connect. It is easy to spend more money, difficult to achieve comfort/quality for less.

All this is dependend on your level of interest and involvement ...

 

Does the WIIM do Tidal gapless? Darkos review mentioned gaps in playback.

[DuckToller]

1 hour ago, Rexp said:

Does the WIIM do Tidal gapless? Darkos review mentioned gaps in playback.

https://darko.audio/2022/02/the-wiim-mini-is-now-bitperfect-and-fully-gapless/

[Rockophile221]

I think I'm finally starting to understand some of this !!!

 

Since I'm using Tidal HiFi, the best I can do is 16bit/44.1khz.

If I move up to Tidal HiFi Plus or Qobuz I can get 24bit/192khz.

But now I'll need a DAC that's capable of decoding it and the Bifrost can't even though it's a 24bit/192 DAC.

So am I correct to assume this is why so many listeners go the route of a dedicated streamer ?

 

[Rockophile221]

Also (again if I'm correct) It wouldn't make sense for me to purchase something like a Bluesound Node or a Cambridge CXN(V2) if all I'm going to do is stream 16/44.1

I can get that through the smart TV app or WiFi casting via a phone/tablet.

[DuckToller]

@Rockophile221

- The Bifrost can do 24/192 Flac/PCM , but not higher or DSD (both you wouldn't find at Qobuz/Tidal)
- But ´that DAC is very expensive wrt the rest of your system, and the DAC in the Anthem ist the first step to go.
- WRT higher bitrates, yes the WIIM can do that, so can the Node (but perhaps not 6 times better ?)
- the SQ of streaming digital content would usually a bit lower if you do multiple DA- AD-DA-AD conversions on the way, that why a ethernet/Wifi signal to your streamer with digital out (USB/TOSLINK/COAX) is the easiest way to avoid degradation.
- The build quality of the streamer may have as well an impact as does other noise sources. Until the point of diminishing returns, which has a personal note integrated.
- I think davide and I are trying to channel expenses wisely into directions where we would assume they have the best impact for your situation,. You may feel different about it ...