Best DAC for less than 2500 euros, New or used ?

[ecwl]

28 minutes ago, Ozan Bolat said:

Many questions after weekend ! CD/SACD player was Marantz SA8003 and I can not split my Mac Intosh (integrated MA252) to sell the preamp and am a guy listening mainly acoustic jazz piano is important for me. At the moment I'm really looking forward @GoldenOne's review of the Spring as new stuff category good at both CD and SACD source and with used T+A still considered

In this case, I think anything you buy in your price range would be a big upgrade over your SA8003. Spring & used T+A sound like good options. But so are every other DACs listed in this thread so far. Buy what you like. You’ll love it.

[Ozan Bolat]

1 hour ago, ecwl said:

In this case, I think anything you buy in your price range would be a big upgrade over your SA8003. Spring & used T+A sound like good options. But so are every other DACs listed in this thread so far. Buy what you like. You’ll love it.

I have Focal Aria 936 loudspeakers : SA8003 was older less good component : I upgrade with time and money 

[Ozan Bolat]

Questions to @GoldenOne and others in the perspective of buying a Spring :

 

One exciting thing would be to listen to PCM with R2R and to DSD with DSD module but I think i read @Miskauses his Denafrips and Holo as DSD only while many May owners seem to listen PCM PCM.

What is the status?

 

If PCM with ladder then there would be the matter of pure NOS vs OS in HQP : some seem to prefer pure NOS even with 44.1 but I think I read that @Miskasays that if I do filters to correct room/speakers in HQP I have to at least double the initial FR.

Is that correct? Is it better to not have HQP so everything PCM is NOS ?

 

If OS in HQP  is there a consensus that max (1536) is best ?

 

If HQP I will use our family i9 iMac and if necessary the IT guy in my company is willing to help make a little cheap retired secondary computer work NAA nearby the DAC

[DuckToller]

Guten Morgen,
Will you store your music as well on the the MacFamily or do you feed it by NAS.

IIRC, higher bitrates often demand dedicated machines with last generation CPU/GPU.

Cheers, Tom

 

 

 

[Miska]

4 hours ago, Ozan Bolat said:

One exciting thing would be to listen to PCM with R2R and to DSD with DSD module but I think i read @Miskauses his Denafrips and Holo as DSD only while many May owners seem to listen PCM PCM.

What is the status?

 

If PCM with ladder then there would be the matter of pure NOS vs OS in HQP : some seem to prefer pure NOS even with 44.1 but I think I read that @Miskasays that if I do filters to correct room/speakers in HQP I have to at least double the initial FR.

Is that correct? Is it better to not have HQP so everything PCM is NOS ?

 

Point of using such NOS DACs with HQPlayer is that it let's bit-perfect reproduction of data from HQPlayer algorithms.

 

There are clear technical reasons for using OS and SDM (DSD).

 

But when used correctly, HQPlayer can also linearize R2R like the Holo Audio ones, when used with PCM.

 

4 hours ago, Ozan Bolat said:

If OS in HQP  is there a consensus that max (1536) is best ?

 

Yes, it is quite clear from objective point of view.

 

[GoldenOne]

5 hours ago, Ozan Bolat said:

Questions to @GoldenOne and others in the perspective of buying a Spring :

 

One exciting thing would be to listen to PCM with R2R and to DSD with DSD module but I think i read @Miskauses his Denafrips and Holo as DSD only while many May owners seem to listen PCM PCM.

What is the status?

 

If PCM with ladder then there would be the matter of pure NOS vs OS in HQP : some seem to prefer pure NOS even with 44.1 but I think I read that @Miskasays that if I do filters to correct room/speakers in HQP I have to at least double the initial FR.

Is that correct? Is it better to not have HQP so everything PCM is NOS ?

 

If OS in HQP  is there a consensus that max (1536) is best ?

 

If HQP I will use our family i9 iMac and if necessary the IT guy in my company is willing to help make a little cheap retired secondary computer work NAA nearby the DAC

If you are doing os then there's no reason not to go for the max sample rate. 

 

NOS vs OS and pcm vs dsd is just a preference thing and you'll have to play about with them to find which you like

[Ozan Bolat]

4 hours ago, DuckToller said:

Guten Morgen,
Will you store your music as well on the the MacFamily or do you feed it by NAS.

IIRC, higher bitrates often demand dedicated machines with last generation CPU/GPU.

Cheers, Tom

 

 

 

Hi Tom,

 

I believe most my CDs will be available to stream from Qobuz, maybe better as hires, and if SACD files don't fit in big Mac then usb attached HDD,

Viele Grüße, Ozan

 

[Ozan Bolat]

32 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

Point of using such NOS DACs with HQPlayer is that it let's bit-perfect reproduction of data from HQPlayer algorithms.

 

There are clear technical reasons for using OS and SDM (DSD).

 

But when used correctly, HQPlayer can also linearize R2R like the Holo Audio ones, when used with PCM.

 

 

Yes, it is quite clear from objective point of view.

 

It is critical point for me between T+A and Holo : if using OS SDM for everything is better then Spring loses advantage if i can find T+A DSD8 cheaper (since I assume PCM part is better and more consistent in Spring with R2R than in T+A with SD chips)

 

So, I'd be happy and probably others if you could elaborate on "There are clear technical reasons for using OS and SDM (DSD)." when the source is PCM and the DAC is R2R

 

"But when used correctly, HQPlayer can also linearize R2R like the Holo Audio ones, when used with PCM." is completely mysterious and beyond my understanding so I'd be happy, and probably others,  if you could please elaborate

 

 

[Ozan Bolat]

39 minutes ago, GoldenOne said:

If you are doing os then there's no reason not to go for the max sample rate. 

 

NOS vs OS and pcm vs dsd is just a preference thing and you'll have to play about with them to find which you like

reason could have been hardware pushed to the verge...

 

Can't wait to watch your review of Spring ! Maybe you will share settings that put light on : "But when used correctly, HQPlayer can also linearize R2R like the Holo Audio ones, when used with PCM."

[ecwl]

5 hours ago, Ozan Bolat said:

If HQP I will use our family i9 iMac and if necessary the IT guy in my company is willing to help make a little cheap retired secondary computer work NAA nearby the DAC

Sounds like you already have a solid plan. Mac + HQPlayer into Spring/used T+A DAC into your current system. 

 

It’ll sound awesome. You probably just need to make that leap of faith and buy a DAC and enjoy the sound.

[Miska]

40 minutes ago, Ozan Bolat said:

It is critical point for me between T+A and Holo : if using OS SDM for everything is better then Spring loses advantage if i can find T+A DSD8 cheaper (since I assume PCM part is better and more consistent in Spring with R2R than in T+A with SD chips)

 

Well, the two are still different DACs.

 

Quote

So, I'd be happy and probably others if you could elaborate on "There are clear technical reasons for using OS and SDM (DSD)." when the source is PCM and the DAC is R2R

 

In short, this has been discussed many times over the years here.

 

SDM DACs were created for a reason, due to various problems of R2R. With R2R you need steeper analog reconstruction filter because settling time to within +-½ LSB limits possible OS rate. Meaning incomplete reconstruction due to images leaking through and analog filter causing phase shifts in audio band. In addition precision of R2R ladder limits low level linearity of the converter which is due to physical problems of creating high precision resistors. Although this is common problem in SDM DAC chips too, but for different reason - because their DSP processing power is too limited.

 

SDM allows you to use for example 256x OS filters and sampling rate, without settling time problems. This is enabled by advances in DSP processing power. Allowing you to get around both the OS rate, settling time and low level linearity issues.

 

Quote

"But when used correctly, HQPlayer can also linearize R2R like the Holo Audio ones, when used with PCM." is completely mysterious and beyond my understanding so I'd be happy, and probably others,  if you could please elaborate

 

I have documented this extensively in the Holo threads. If you set output bits in HQPlayer to 20 and select a suitable noise shaper combined with highest (705.6k+) output sampling rates, you can linearize the R2R ladder without losing any dynamic range. This will significantly reduce distortion of low level signals when using R2R.

 

Here's Spring 2 playing 1 kHz -120 dBFS tone with 24-bit TPDF dithered output without noise shaping:

 

Here's Spring 2 playing the same tone, at 1.4112M but now with NS5 noise shaper and 20-bit output:

You can see all the distortion components have disappeared.

 

I just test and measure DACs to find out how to improve their technical performance with HQPlayer's DSP.

 

[GoldenOne]

42 minutes ago, Ozan Bolat said:

But when used correctly, HQPlayer can also linearize R2R like the Holo Audio ones, when used with PCM

Not sure where this quote is from, but the Holo dacs have exceptional linearity in NOS already, better than most DS dacs

Miska has shown improvements made by HQP though, and subjectively it makes a big improvement for me. But I don't know if it has anything to do with linearity

[Zauurx]

1 hour ago, GoldenOne said:

If you are doing os then there's no reason not to go for the max sample rate. 

 

NOS vs OS and pcm vs dsd is just a preference thing and you'll have to play about with them to find which you like

Best dac... under 1000$ : Pegasus !
I paid 800€/950$ in the end (830€ promotion at Aoshida/Alexpress minus 30€ cashback).
And I'm still hesitating but finally I think I prefer DSD256 / gauss-xla / ASMDM5EC (my server bug in 7EC) rather than PCM in 1.4112... difficult to compare live with a different output level (6db ?).

 

[edit]
But the pegasus (like the ARES) is not a "real" NOS (?).
More linear in 24bit PCM than in DSD 20?

[rn701]

Topping D10s + 20 years of Spotify.

[Ozan Bolat]

8 hours ago, GoldenOne said:

Not sure where this quote is from, but the Holo dacs have exceptional linearity in NOS already, better than most DS dacs

Miska has shown improvements made by HQP though, and subjectively it makes a big improvement for me. But I don't know if it has anything to do with linearity

I quoted Miska

[Ozan Bolat]

9 hours ago, ecwl said:

Sounds like you already have a solid plan. Mac + HQPlayer into Spring/used T+A DAC into your current system. 

 

It’ll sound awesome. You probably just need to make that leap of faith and buy a DAC and enjoy the sound.

thank you. I give me 2 more weeks before the leap of faith

[Ozan Bolat]

8 hours ago, Miska said:

 

Well, the two are still different DACs.

 

 

In short, this has been discussed many times over the years here.

 

SDM DACs were created for a reason, due to various problems of R2R. With R2R you need steeper analog reconstruction filter because settling time to within +-½ LSB limits possible OS rate. Meaning incomplete reconstruction due to images leaking through and analog filter causing phase shifts in audio band. In addition precision of R2R ladder limits low level linearity of the converter which is due to physical problems of creating high precision resistors. Although this is common problem in SDM DAC chips too, but for different reason - because their DSP processing power is too limited.

 

SDM allows you to use for example 256x OS filters and sampling rate, without settling time problems. This is enabled by advances in DSP processing power. Allowing you to get around both the OS rate, settling time and low level linearity issues.

 

 

I have documented this extensively in the Holo threads. If you set output bits in HQPlayer to 20 and select a suitable noise shaper combined with highest (705.6k+) output sampling rates, you can linearize the R2R ladder without losing any dynamic range. This will significantly reduce distortion of low level signals when using R2R.

 

Here's Spring 2 playing 1 kHz -120 dBFS tone with 24-bit TPDF dithered output without noise shaping:

 

Here's Spring 2 playing the same tone, at 1.4112M but now with NS5 noise shaper and 20-bit output:

You can see all the distortion components have disappeared.

 

I just test and measure DACs to find out how to improve their technical performance with HQPlayer's DSP.

 

Thank you very much. Though NOW I could find info knowing what to look for (search terms holo noise shaper by author Miska) I missed it, apologies. NS5, NS9 or LNS15 all the same ?

[Miska]

12 minutes ago, Ozan Bolat said:

NS5, NS9 or LNS15 all the same ?

 

Similar results, if you use the highest sampling rates and 20 bit. Differences are more in the ultrasonic band when used at lower rates like 352.8/384k or such. And some differences in audio band at those lower rates when used at lower word lengths (16 bit and less).

 

[Zauurx]

A difference in load distribution on the cores ? (NS5 vs LNS15)

[DeathFugue]

Is Chord readily available in Germany? If so, I really like my Qutest (It's $1600 in the US) or the Hugo2. Chord uses FPGA chips (long story short, they can be programmed to do whatever the designer wants, and they can eliminate shortcomings found in most off the shelf chips. To my ear, my Chord sounds more musical/analog than any other DAC I've owned, with more details and a wider/deeper soundstage.

[Miska]

37 minutes ago, Zauurx said:

A difference in load distribution on the cores ? (NS5 vs LNS15)

 

No, the load from those noise shapers is so low at these low PCM rates that it is barely noticeable in first place.

 

[Ozan Bolat]

6 hours ago, DeathFugue said:

Is Chord readily available in Germany? If so, I really like my Qutest (It's $1600 in the US) or the Hugo2. Chord uses FPGA chips (long story short, they can be programmed to do whatever the designer wants, and they can eliminate shortcomings found in most off the shelf chips. To my ear, my Chord sounds more musical/analog than any other DAC I've owned, with more details and a wider/deeper soundstage.

Yes, quite popular too. I like your setup so might make me think but I'm not attracted at all to Chord. I admit I never heard in my system but to me they look quite like little boxes full of marketing. BTW, it helps considering a Spring when one can not/ does not want to spend a May : doubt even a DAve has better power than a Spring

[Zauurx]

14 hours ago, Miska said:

 

No, the load from those noise shapers is so low at these low PCM rates that it is barely noticeable in first place.

 

 

Thank you!
Funny consequence, when I switched from DSD256 to PCM 14112, the ethernet stream quadrupled (100Mb vs 25Mb) but the latency between my server and my USBridge went from 2ms to 1ms !!

 

[Miska]

Also one thing where DSD256 excels compared to PCM is jitter performance. So far jitter in the DAC output seems to be almost invariably lower with DSD inputs than with PCM.

 

[Ozan Bolat]

59 minutes ago, Miska said:

Also one thing where DSD256 excels compared to PCM is jitter performance. So far jitter in the DAC output seems to be almost invariably lower with DSD inputs than with PCM.

 

then, would'nt the Holo Cyan DSD be the perfect DAC ? Why they stopped it? comments seem to suggest there were issues with it and that it was only so so but wouldn't a May reduced to DSD at Spring price point be the absolute steal ?