The quest for flat frequency responce may be futile if you have age related hearing loss. Use DSP to find YOUR "flat".

[Pro Jules]

I reccomend using DSP, specifically a high quality parametric equalizer, to retrieve frequencies lost to those of us with age (or occupational) related hearing loss,

 

In simplistic terms one could ask an audiologist for a detailed graph of the dips in one's hearing and using a parametric eq, boost those deminished frequencies to restore them to "flat" or a younger hearing range. 

 

If you think about it the artist and studio production team might have been in a pre hearing loss age range. So their hearing at the time of signing off on the final mixes and mastering will be different than an older person who's hearing is somewhat deminished, so why not compensate with equalisation? 

 

Anyhow, that's what I do. I reccomended it. 

 

 

[firedog]

I've been doing that for a while and it works well. 

 

The better programmable hearing aids can also do quite a bit of the work for you. They are essentially doing the same thing within the hearing aid. The advantage is that they can have a response curve that's matched to make up for your specific personal hearing loss issues.

 

I'd hazard a guess that many audiophiles over 50 would find they have mild to moderate hearing loss if they were tested. 

[Pro Jules]

👍

[fresponse]

Thanks @Pro Jules for launching this topic.

 

I got requests from customer using my correction service to generate filters for hearing losses. So I dig a little bit into this question and found out that "standard" eq is not fully appropriate.

 

This is because hearing loss is not linear : in each impacted frequency region, quieter sounds will require more gain than louder ones. 

Hearing aid devices do implement such non linear gain structure. In studio langage, similar effect is achieved with frequency dependent compressor/expander.

 

I have generated a plugin to implement such correction (input based on users age or measured hearing thresholds)

 

 

The plugin is in beta testing phase and can be downloaded from here :

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1cPipRWau9_c84CPXmkR6LEh5OMjwwGL3?usp=sharing

 

All testing feedback is welcome,
Thierry

[Pro Jules]

👍👌

[jrobbins50]

@fresponse, very innovative.  Will this plug-in work with Roon or HQP and how would you apply it to my hearing loss depicted in the photo attached?  Thanks, Thierry. Cheers. JCR 

[Pro Jules]

While you wait for his answer. Simplistically speaking, imagine placing a mirror along the top green line. 

[jrobbins50]

Yes, I note the nearly 50dB drop, however,  and wonder what could possibly correct for that without damaging my wife, our dogs or my speakers (in that order).  JCR 

[fresponse]

Hi @jrobbins50 Yes you can enter your own hearing thresholds in my plugin proposal (with the faders you can see on the user interface screenshot)

Unfortunately you need some virtual cabling solution if you want to use plugins with Roon/HQP. I have made a list of options on my website here

 

 

[Pro Jules]

IMHO You don’t have to go for the full 40db boost. You can simply restore SOME of that range. 
 

I will post a screenshot of my Roon parametric boosts. (Simply done to taste, not a reverse mirror of an audiologist graph)

 

BTW I think@fresponse’s site looks to be a fantastic resource! And a this project looks to be wonderfully geeky / tech rabbit hole worth travelling down. 

[John Dyson]

On 5/21/2021 at 5:28 PM, firedog said:

I've been doing that for a while and it works well. 

 

The better programmable hearing aids can also do quite a bit of the work for you. They are essentially doing the same thing within the hearing aid. The advantage is that they can have a response curve that's matched to make up for your specific personal hearing loss issues.

 

I'd hazard a guess that many audiophiles over 50 would find they have mild to moderate hearing loss if they were tested. 

Some of you know that I have embarassed myself more than once on my project (having to do lots of A/B comparisons to reverse engineer.)  Unfortunately, I'd have to go to the audiologist 3-4 times per day to get a set of curves (really.)   My hearing goes from a good, normal response out to beyond 12kHz-15kHz, then back to below 9kHz through the day. Bass acts similarly, but at different times.

Just imagine the confusion that it had caused -- and some loss of credibility.

Luckily a few people have finally figured out how to let me know that the hearing loss is very inconsistent.   Once I can figure out what is going on, and get the variability through the day fixed, then such a scheme might be helpful...

This hearing variation has been totally crazy-making.

 

The idea looks great, and I wish I could use it (but make my own parameteric EQ SW myself :-)).  I am good at super high accuracy software.

 

 

 

[OldHardwareTech]

On 5/31/2021 at 6:57 AM, fresponse said:

Thanks @Pro Jules for launching this topic.

 

I got requests from customer using my correction service to generate filters for hearing losses. So I dig a little bit into this question and found out that "standard" eq is not fully appropriate.

 

This is because hearing loss is not linear : in each impacted frequency region, quieter sounds will require more gain than louder ones. 

Hearing aid devices do implement such non linear gain structure. In studio langage, similar effect is achieved with frequency dependent compressor/expander.

 

I have generated a plugin to implement such correction (input based on users age or measured hearing thresholds)

 

 

The plugin is in beta testing phase and can be downloaded from here :

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1cPipRWau9_c84CPXmkR6LEh5OMjwwGL3?usp=sharing

 

All testing feedback is welcome,
Thierry

Can you provide an updated link for this? The only thing in that google drive folder is the jpg. Thanks!

 

Edit: Never mind, It's there I just didn't click thru.  Thanks Anyway!

 

[Pro Jules]

Glad to see this progressing. 

 

I have run eq plugins on my Mac via Audio Hijack before (the wonderful Fabfilter EQ3p) 

 

But I wasn't aware it could be done with Roon. (I just copied over my Fabfilter parameters over to Roon's parametric eq) 

 

When I have a free day to geek out I will revisit this and try the Hifi Aid 

 

@fresponse I have private messaged you. I would like to chat with you in person. 

[PeterG]

Arriving late to the party.  I have mild to moderate loss on the high end, and very expensive hearing aids. @fresponse's comment above is consistent with my experience.  In other words, hearing aids make music through a high end system worse not better.  The obvious problem, of course, is that without aids you are listening to audiophile amplification and speakers, with aids you're listening to crappy little electronics.  This is a glaring difference for anyone.  But the point that within each range softer sounds are more impacted rings true--I did not find the aids more revealing.

 

Of course, YMMV--a person with severe loss may be grateful.  Plus, this whole area is so unexplored, I'm sure all of us have a lot to learn

[firedog]

3 hours ago, PeterG said:

The obvious problem, of course, is that without aids you are listening to audiophile amplification and speakers, with aids you're listening to crappy little electronics. 

That's not really true. Aids aren't like IEMs - they don't block the sound from your stereo system - you still hear it. The aids are just that - aids - they don't replace your own hearing. 

I don't know about you, but I can hear cymbals much better when using aids.  

[PeterG]

7 hours ago, firedog said:

That's not really true. Aids aren't like IEMs - they don't block the sound from your stereo system - you still hear it. The aids are just that - aids - they don't replace your own hearing. 

I don't know about you, but I can hear cymbals much better when using aids.  

Perhaps we have different hearing aids?  Mine are Phonak Virtos--they are 100% inside my ear canals.  They occlude virtually the entire canal.  The seal is not as tight as IEMs, but the vast majority of the sound that reaches my inner ear passes through the aids. 

 

I think we need to define "better".  I am certain that my aids would allow me to hear certain quiet sounds on the high end that I cannot not hear without them, and I would guess that quiet cymbal transients are on that list.  So by that definition of better, I agree.  But everything else sounds worse--like music played on a mass market radio.

[firedog]

6 hours ago, PeterG said:

Perhaps we have different hearing aids?  Mine are Phonak Virtos--they are 100% inside my ear canals.  They occlude virtually the entire canal.  The seal is not as tight as IEMs, but the vast majority of the sound that reaches my inner ear passes through the aids. 

 

I think we need to define "better".  I am certain that my aids would allow me to hear certain quiet sounds on the high end that I cannot not hear without them, and I would guess that quiet cymbal transients are on that list.  So by that definition of better, I agree.  But everything else sounds worse--like music played on a mass market radio.

 

Okay, but then maybe try a different type of aid. Mine Phonaks (Audeo R90) aren't in my canals and don't block outside sound. For music listening they defeat much of the processing they use for speech, and I get nothing like what you describe. It would at least be worth it for you to try, to see if another model helps you hear speech as well as improving music listening. 

[Pro Jules]

I am a lifetime career audio engineer, (pop / rock / music recording) 

 

I have manually tweaked a parametric eq to compensate for my hearing loss (to my taste)

 

Without sounding pompous - it would be great if Audiophile enthusiasts with hearing challenges could have the same confidence to tweak at eq's 

 

But I can understand a reluctance to medle ....

 

 

 

 

[JanRSmit]

I have lyrics. What i experience is that with my lyrics the tinnitus(noise with peaks in 2-5khz range) is much much less. The explanation i have got from ENT specialist is that the hearing sort of tries to amplify the missing response in that region, thus more noise aka tinnitus. My lyrics are correcting that missing sensitivity in given region, so my hearing does not need to correct that anymore.

 

But it takes time for hearing(brains) to adjust. It can take a day or 2, left ear more than right ear in my case.

 

The sensitivity loss is one thing the loss of resolving or discrimination is another aspect. In my case it was far worse than the just the sensitivity loss would suggest. In noisy situations, like lots of people chatting in  room , it results in complete loss of resolving/discrimination. With my lyrics hearing aid this is significantly improved.

 

Another point is sensitivity to distortions, for me lower frequency uneven harmonics and IMD are extremely disturbing, actually deafening for me even at lower sound levels.

 

So i prefer listening with lyrics, be it that any non linear settings are turned off. Because this loudness based sensitivity damping is unnatural to my hearing.

 

One point with lyrics is a almost complete blocking of sounds. Logical yet the low frequencies are much less amplified by the Lyrics. 

I have them set with lowest cutoff and lowest fall-off. It is in that way ok, but a bit weird to feel bass without really hearing them as well.

 

Anyhow also quite ok with live jazz music like in BIM house in Amsterdam.

And returning home and listening to recordings of given jazz band it still sounds ok .

[JanRSmit]

In addition, why lyrics: the only aid with analog amplification to my knowledge. Tried over the past years (actually more than 15 years) several modern fancy and expensive aids, all of them digital, both in ear and behind ear and without exception the use lasted normally less than an hour or so before taking them out. So the devices themselves do have a significant role in enjoying music and speech.

 

 

[John Dyson]

The variability of old-people hearing (at least mine) is so crazy as to inspire true insanity.   I have given up entire on any idea of 'perceived' flatness, only using 'listenable' flatness as a double check.  As some might already know, my project is NOT about pure flatness per se, but has an incredibly variable frequency response that can be as wide as +-20dB over the spectrum, but only mirror imaging other processing that people have become accustomed to.  Whether or not one might agree that there is ubiquitious processing since the 1980s, almost any audio processing nowadays is multband, so there is NO sense of 'flatness' anyway, except in boutique and artistically controlled recordings.

 

My guess is that the only reason why there might be some plausible perception of flatness is that the *average* energy as measured over very short term intervals is very similar to the originating material.

 

Anyway, about 'perceiving' flatness, it seems to me like the only reasonable goal on my project is to hunt for 'tells' where the energy might become inconsistent over narrow frequency ranges, thereby create a kind of 'distortion' in the sound.   Eventually, the goal, once starting with a prospective 'flat' response, look for minimizing the distortions (time, amplitude) based on the proposed flat signal.

 

Therefore, I have finally determined, after at leas >5yrs of intensive experimentation and >10yrs of less intensive observation that 'flatness' is in the 'ears of the beholder'.

There is too much time variability, both in the short term >5seconds and the longer terms that even make A/B comparisons of details a good challenge, but not likely to be totally successful.   Maybe those with younger, less damaged ears and less 'befuddled' processing in the brain might be able to attain reasonable accuracy.   Alas, I used to have truly very good pitch, being able to call out music notes very easily.   Now, as a 66yr old person, I have NO pitch, only hearing modulation effects, distortions, etc.   Tones, not so much.

 

Perhaps, best from my observations:   YMMV (your mileage may vary), that is -- maybe a few can truly perceive flatness, but even if so -- relative to what?

 

John

 

 

 

[Pro Jules]

For iPhone users on the go I found this video to be a fantastic tip

 

I did it and now my AirPods play back perfect - compensated for my hearing loss.

 

https://gearspace.com/board/health-and-hearing-loss/1393808-amazing-iphone-airpods-amp-beats-tip-hearing-loss.html?highlight=audiogram#post16273434