A toast to PGGB, a heady brew of math and magic

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

1 minute ago, MemoryPlayer said:

What happens with PGGB license if I upgrade to a new computer?

It is common for many PGGB users to upgrade their computer; I allow the license to be transferred, you will have to just email me the new Hardware Id.

[MemoryPlayer]

On 8/23/2023 at 9:55 AM, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

Purely based on the digital path (in the order):

1. A Chord DAC because the DAC is based on a similar philosophy and they bypass the first stage of PCM filtering, doing no harm to PGGB tracks.

2. An R2R DAC in NOS mode which can allow a sample rate of 16fS or higher

3. Sigma Delta DACs (that accept 8fS or higher rates), that either disable OS filters for PCM automatically or those where they can be disabled.

4. Sigma Delta DACs that accept 16fS or higher rates that may not allow you to disable the OS filter but they have a choice of filters to choose from, especially a short, linear filter or a very short min-phase filter with a very slow roll off.

 

The above needs to be taken in light of my post here.

https://ifi-audio.com/products/pro-idsd/ is in your list, I use also an iFi Diablo that uses the same TI BB chip than the Pro iDSD!

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

59 minutes ago, MemoryPlayer said:

https://ifi-audio.com/products/pro-idsd/ is in your list, I use also an iFi Diablo that uses the same TI BB chip than the Pro iDSD!

With delta sigma DACs it is sometimes hard to predict if a DAC will truly benifit from PGGB, so I add DACs to the list if either I have tried it myself or if a user reports. I have not tried the pro-iDSD myself, but I added it to the list based on the feedback I received and also knowing that it offers a Direct/bit-perfect mode (which falls into category 3 in my list) where the OS filter is disabled.  

 

iFi Diablo to my knowledge does not have an option of selecting the OS filters or disabling them, it is possible the OS filter is disabled automatically for 8fS and 16fS rates, but I did not see that information in the manual. You may be able to find out more from them directly.

 

Edit: Or of course, you have already listened and have arrived at a conclusion.

[MemoryPlayer]

9 hours ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

...Or of course, you have already listened and have arrived at a conclusion.

I  liked a lot PGGB sound, but my computer can't handle this software well.

After one month trying it, I converted less than 10 albuns, so sounds a nonsense I spend $1k with PGGB and more $5k for a new MBP ou Mac Studio for run it! 

For the same amount, is better I sell my Oppo and Diablo and buy a T+A DAC200, am I right?

 

P.S.: BTW, the Oppo Dac is the only one that I know, that used is sold at double it's new retail price...

[LowOrbit]

If you like a revealing, musical presentation, the T+A Dac200 is a very fine option.

 

(Of course, feed it PGGB upsampled files and it jumps to a higher level altogether, but very good without that.)

[MemoryPlayer]

My preference always was listen to PCM upsampled to DSD, now I'm listening to the album below several times (at least 6 times).

 

Each track I listen twice, the first one upsampled with PGGB optimal settings, and the second one, upsampled to 48k DSD256 / Sinc L / ASDM5ECv2 with HQPlayer Pro, the best combination for my taste and my Oppo DAC.

 

Both albums were upsampled to Wavpack and the tracks with PGGB are more or less double the sizes of DSD256. Maybe the ideal comparation should be PGGB X DSD512, but my MBP goes only to DSD256!

 

Tomorrow I will say which ones sound better!

 

[MemoryPlayer]

On 8/27/2023 at 4:07 PM, MemoryPlayer said:

My preference always was listen to PCM upsampled to DSD, now I'm listening to the album below several times (at least 6 times).

 

Each track I listen twice, the first one upsampled with PGGB optimal settings, and the second one, upsampled to 48k DSD256 / Sinc L / ASDM5ECv2 with HQPlayer Pro, the best combination for my taste and my Oppo DAC.

 

Both albums were upsampled to Wavpack and the tracks with PGGB are more or less double the sizes of DSD256. Maybe the ideal comparation should be PGGB X DSD512, but my MBP goes only to DSD256!

 

Tomorrow I will say which ones sound better!

PGGB 256 sounds better than HQPD PCM upsampling, always.

More precise, linear, rounded and relaxed sound, with no traces of PCM digital sound.

 

Comparing PGGB with HQPD DSD upsampling my preference remains DSD. Always.

Even Audirvana Origin and Roon, both of them upsampling to DSD256 sound better than PGGB, I'm sorry but is my opinion after 4 days comparing the same tracks!!!

[MemoryPlayer]

Both

32 minutes ago, MemoryPlayer said:

PGGB 256 sounds better than HQPD PCM upsampling, always.

More precise, linear, rounded and relaxed sound, with no traces of PCM digital sound.

I can't explain the reason, but both generated the same amount of data with WAV and AIFF, see tracks size! With wavpack sounds as HQPD compress more than PGGB!

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

1 hour ago, MemoryPlayer said:

Both

I can't explain the reason, but both generated the same amount of data with WAV and AIFF, see tracks size! With wavpack sounds as HQPD compress more than PGGB!

I use default compression settings with Wavpack , but size can be different depending on the settings.

 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

1 hour ago, MemoryPlayer said:

Comparing PGGB with HQPD DSD upsampling my preference remains DSD. Always.

Even Audirvana Origin and Roon, both of them upsampling to DSD256 sound better than PGGB, I'm sorry but is my opinion after 4 days comparing the same tracks!!!

When you say 'DSD upsampling' was your source track DSD or PCM or both?

 

What did you like about Roon or Audirvana with DSD upsampling?

 

Nothing to be sorry about, based on your DAC and your preferences, if that is what you like, that is what matters.

 

[MemoryPlayer]

1 hour ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

1) When you say 'DSD upsampling' was your source track DSD or PCM or both?

 

2) What did you like about Roon or Audirvana with DSD upsampling?

 

Nothing to be sorry about, based on your DAC and your preferences, if that is what you like, that is what matters.

 

1) The same PCM tracks were used to compare!

2) I like the analog presentation of DSD upsample!

[kennyb123]

3 hours ago, MemoryPlayer said:

I like the analog presentation of DSD upsample!

Can you share details on what leads you to prefer DSD scaling?  What kind of music did your test tracks represent? 

[MemoryPlayer]

1 hour ago, kennyb123 said:

Can you share details on what leads you to prefer DSD scaling?

What kind of music did your test tracks represent? 

I listen only to classical music, most of them piano music.

For my taste DSD is more  musical, relaxed and I never feel fadigue. With PCM I stop to listen to music after a couple  of hours...

 

The tests were made with this stunning record:

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9247232--liszt-harmonies-poetiques

 

BTW, for music lovers try these labels: 

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/labels/1356/browse?format=3

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/labels/3696/browse?format=3

http://www.hunniarecords.com/DSD-Audio/

 

[kennyb123]

1 hour ago, MemoryPlayer said:

With PCM I stop to listen to music after a couple  of hours...

That shouldn’t happen.  Which DAC are you using?

[kennyb123]

1 hour ago, MemoryPlayer said:

The tests were made with this stunning record:

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9247232--liszt-harmonies-poetiques

 

BTW, for music lovers try these labels: 

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/labels/1356/browse?format=3

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/labels/3696/browse?format=3

http://www.hunniarecords.com/DSD-Audio/

Thanks for sharing.  I will check these out.

[MemoryPlayer]

9 minutes ago, kennyb123 said:

That shouldn’t happen.  Which DAC are you using?

Oppo Sonica DAC ou iFi Diablo.

[MemoryPlayer]

Great album released two days ago!

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9506311--rachmaninoff-piano-concertos-paganini-rhapsody

[elementze]

Update on my PGGB experience / journey:

 

I started down the PGGB path upsampling my little flac collection (around 60 albums) to 24/768(705) to use with a Chord Qutest (streamed via OpticalRendu to SRC-DX).  This has been absolutely great.  Very noticable step up in tambre as well as spatial presentation (depth, separation).  It's made multi-hour listening sessions much more regular! 

 

This week I opened a new can of worms: PGGB on Hiby RS8 DAP (nice internal R2R DAC).  I started with the 24/768(705) files playing in nos mode, and as expected it was a nice improvement over using the stock internal upsampling filters.  But some real magic happened today when I switched to 20 bit at 1411/1536.  Eye opening change in clarity and soundstage.  Files are also eye wateringly large!  My poor 1TB SD card is begging for mercy 🤣. But so far it seems to be worth it to get around using the internal limited upsampling filters of the DAP. Getting the most out of the nice internal R2R DAC 😁

 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

9 minutes ago, elementze said:

Update on my PGGB experience / journey:

 

I started down the PGGB path upsampling my little flac collection (around 60 albums) to 24/768(705) to use with a Chord Qutest (streamed via OpticalRendu to SRC-DX).  This has been absolutely great.  Very noticable step up in tambre as well as spatial presentation (depth, separation).  It's made multi-hour listening sessions much more regular! 

 

This week I opened a new can of worms: PGGB on Hiby RS8 DAP (nice internal R2R DAC).  I started with the 24/768(705) files playing in nos mode, and as expected it was a nice improvement over using the stock internal upsampling filters.  But some real magic happened today when I switched to 20 bit at 1411/1536.  Eye opening change in clarity and soundstage.  Files are also eye wateringly large!  My poor 1TB SD card is begging for mercy 🤣. But so far it seems to be worth it to get around using the internal limited upsampling filters of the DAP. Getting the most out of the nice internal R2R DAC 😁

 

You may want to go all the way down to 16bits and check where the sweet spot is and if you end up liking the 16bit files, your 1TB card may thank you later 😉. Try 18bit then depending on how you like it go down or up a bit.

[elementze]

10 minutes ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

Try 18bit then depending on how you like it go down or up a bit.

Thanks for the recommendation. I'll give it a try! 

[elementze]

Picked out five of my favorite test tracks, and I've qued them up for 32x PCM conversation at 16bit, 18bit, and 20bit. Based on that result I'll try either 17bit or 19bit (or possible settle on 20bit).  Let the shootout begin! 😁

[taipan254]

2 hours ago, elementze said:

Picked out five of my favorite test tracks, and I've qued them up for 32x PCM conversation at 16bit, 18bit, and 20bit. Based on that result I'll try either 17bit or 19bit (or possible settle on 20bit).  Let the shootout begin! 😁

Very cool. Generally speaking, how does the dap compare to the qutest when fed the fastest pggb upsampled file each can accept? Would be a cool perspective to hear IMO! 

[elementze]

Update on the 16/18/20bit shootout on the RS8:

 

For each of the 5 test tracks I created, I made a randomly ordered playlist and listened through it to try a determine which is 16/18/20bit.  In general they all sounded very very close, not huge difference at all.  But I was able to pick out the 16bit file correctly for all 5 tracks.  The 18 and 20 bit was basically a coin toss, I guessed 3 out of 5 correctly.  Based on this I could probably go with 18bit (or split the difference at 19bit).  But my audio-fool heart is having a hard time letting go of the 20bit: mo bits is mo better 😜

 

So I'll probably eat the file size and remastero my library at 20bit for use on the RS8.

 

If there are any other RS8 (or RS6) owners out there, I would love to compare notes on this topic!

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

1 hour ago, elementze said:

But I was able to pick out the 16bit file correctly for all 5 tracks. 

What did you hear at 16 bit that you did not like?

[elementze]

It was in the cymbals on well recorded jazz.  They sounded slightly artificial. On the 18 and 22 they sounded more natural.

 

The song Afro Blue by Robert Glasper (on the Black Radio album) is a dead giveaway. 

 

And it's not that I didn't like it.  It was very good and very close. Just enough difference to pick it out