LessLoss Firewall for Loudspeakers

[bodiebill]

I must say that I was somewhat skeptical when @Vincent des Champsproposed to hookup his LessLoss Firewalls to my TAD ME1 speakers. After all I had recently made big strides to lower the noise floor and open up the sound stage using a great DDC, external clocking and Diretta, and it was my intent not to spend any money on new components any time soon.

 

When the four barrels with banana terminations arrived I thought they might not be the ideal built for my bi-wiring setup as I am using Fidelium jumpers, which with their symmetrical design only accept a spade halfway between the binding posts. So I got out the TAD stock jumpers en we inserted the lelofiwa's to the top binding posts. I thought I could hear some difference, but it was not major and it could have been attributable to expectation bias.

 

However, after putting back the Fidelium 'jumpers', we listened to various tracks with and without and the improvement with the lelofiwa's was striking. The increased front-back image depth and sense of 'being there' naturalness was quite amazing. We stopped swapping, wanting only to listen with the barrels in the chain, and I was lucky to find a second-hand pair, which I ordered.

 

I am at a loss as to how these work but they do.

[bodiebill]

9 minutes ago, hopkins said:

Hard to keep a really open mind sometimes in this hobby when you see this kind of thing. Reading the manufacturer's web site, I see that they claim they use special copper.

 

https://www.lessloss.com/firewall-module-p-216.html

 

"In standard extrusion processes, the copper undergoes many forces until the desired size is achieved. Pictured at the top of the image below, you can see a standard copper wire as extruded using industrial methods. Next to this standard copper wire, you can see our copper that we use in the Firewall for Loudspeakers. It is a completely different beast. This is created in house through proprietary means."

 

Knowing what type of industrial equipment is used to make copper wire, I am really skeptical that they are making anything in house, and even sourcing copper wire to their own specifications for making these little gadgets seems highly unlikely, but who knows... The picture does not really tell anything as they are showing polished copper, ok.

 

 

The rest of the technical descriptions on the webiste screams of snake oil :) 

 

hi Stéphane! We already agreed that our approaches are different. You try to (dis)prove something without listening. I try to listen without (dis)proving anything. Of course you will attribute my experience to some kind of bias, and that is fine. As long as I get goose bumps when listening... :-)

[bodiebill]

4 minutes ago, hopkins said:

 

I was expecting this kind of reply :) You have to admit the website is a little over the top - custom made copper wire, the guys working in hazmat suits ... - but maybe the product does something ! As I mentioned, I find the whole thing amusing.

 

I did not read the website. Just listened to the barrels.

Of course you are still very much welcome to have listen when you are in the neighborhood.

[bodiebill]

6 minutes ago, mfsoa said:

At least hey have the scientific proof that this works. Just look at those graphs!!

 

Nice to see some mfgrs showing real, meaningful data on their websites.

 

sheesh

 

It is probably like often in life. People try something and when it works they pretend to be able to explain why. But in most cases we cannot really. So I do take their 'explanations' with a grain of salt. However giving the end result I think some good ears were involved in developing these magic kegs.

[bodiebill]

4 minutes ago, hopkins said:

I do not have sufficient understanding of loudspeakers to have a relevant opinion about all the science behind it, and do not claim to.  I have no idea how "parasitic" high frequency signals - mostly inaudible - could affect speakers.

 

I have worked for quite a few years, however, for a cable manufacturer and have witnessed first hand the type of equipment used in factories to produce copper wire. AFAIK, you don't make small batches of this stuff. Then again, the price of these small cables is quite high.

 

In my setup they performed really well with the Fidelium cables -- fyi & fwiiw, as you also use these.

[bodiebill]

At the highest level of audio manufacturing, components are tuned by ear. Even the best designs by teams of top-notch audio engineers cannot guarantee that the sounding result is what people with good ears were looking for. By trial and error they achieve the desired results. Just to show that at this level we just do not fully understand the workings of the signal path that make the audible difference. So why not just accept that, be modest about our rational understanding of these matters, and tune by ear in our homes too?

[bodiebill]

Fwiiw, a DIY version of the firewall for loudspeakers is avalable for $800:

https://www.lessloss.com/docs/fw/LessLoss_Firewall640x-SPK-schematics.pdf

[bodiebill]

Today I received my 2nd hand LL firewalls. My initial impression -- see @Vincent des Champs' demo session above -- was confirmed. To my ears the effect of these barrels is not tonal coloration or changed frequency response but rather a considerable increase in spaciousness. The perceived sound area is transformed from a rugby ball (left-right more elongated than front-back and top-bottom) to a larger full sphere. The sense of being part of the music increases. For me this is a big SQ step forward -- at least comparable to the steps I experienced as a result of proper convolution, a top notch external reference clock and Diretta.

 

@hopkins I do understand and respect your quest for simplicity, and that none of this will appeal to you. However, for some reason I did not succeed -- so far -- to achieve this level of satisfaction with simpler means. Maybe one day I will. Not that the commercial audio world will help me achieve that, as more money can be made by fragmentation. For instance, the function of these barrels could easily be built into a loudspeaker, or into a loudspeaker wire. Then we would just praise these products without realizing their added complexity.

 

 

[bodiebill]

Firewall for Loudspeakers?

Not just for loudspeakers...

 

 

Not only is it now much easier to use my TakeT H2, but it has never sounded so good, with the added benefits of the Fidelium cables and lelofiwa's.

[bodiebill]

6 hours ago, yamamoto2002 said:

Maybe it is nonlinear and needs neural network rather than linear operation to generate Q value.

 

I like it how you try to create a bridge between the objectivists and the subjectivists, who mostly (and also in this thread) tend to be at cross purposes.

[bodiebill]

11 minutes ago, hopkins said:

The word "objectivist" should be banned from any discussion on AudiophileStyle as it has become meaningless!

 

I just tried to make the distinction between those who say "I love what I hear but I do not know how it works" and those who say "I have not heard this component but science says it cannot work so you are imagining things".

How would you call these two mindsets?

[bodiebill]

1 minute ago, hopkins said:

You are not being very "objective" in your descriptions :) There are also many people who do both (hear and try to understand how things work). We do not need to waste too much time figuring out what makes the extremists tick.

 

I agree that almost everybody shows a mix of the two. How else could it be? Everyone wants to enjoy the music; and everyone makes choices based on assumptions.

[bodiebill]

29 minutes ago, Ben-M said:

(@bodiebill I know you're trying to settle it in, but "lelofiwa" isn't going to fly 😜  The 1st issue is that Lessloss has other firewall modules, so an important designation in their name here is the "for Loud Speakers" part, but lelofiwa doesn't address that... And the #2 issue is that some people are already using the FWfLS abbreviation 😜)

 

Thanks Ben, FWfLS it is! :-)

[bodiebill]

On 4/5/2022 at 11:10 AM, Ben-M said:

I like that idea of using these FWfLS modules for headphones. I'm in this camp too with my HiFiMAN HE-6 and my no-longer-owned HEKv1, which I run off the speaker taps of the Xindak a600e Mkii integrated amp. I will have to give this idea a try later. 

 

I did some further experimenting with the FW4LS's and headphones. This time I inserted the modules' bananas in the amp's speaker terminals. Obviously then their direction is reversed, but this can be corrected by swapping the red and the black module. So now it is:

 

amp red + terminal > black FW4LS reversed > headphone red +
amp black - terminal > red FW4LS reversed > headphone black -

 

This configuration was kindly suggested and approved by Louis Motek and can also be used for speakers. I am happy as it sounds great, makes changing between speakers and headphones (by changing the spades connected to the modules) easier, and enables me to use the Fidelium biwire adapters as intended.

[bodiebill]

And back to speakers...

 

@Vincent des Champs suggested that -- with the above reversed configuration -- it is now possible to attach both the speakers and subs behind the FW4LS's. So I did, and I am amazed by the positive effect on the low end. The region below 50Hz (at which I have set the low pass of my two SVS 3000 micro subs) becomes so much more powerful, controlled and chiseled. Yet another reason to prefer the reversed configuration, and another proof of the powerful effect of LossLess' FW4LS's. I understand from Vincent that he is experiencing a similar improvement with his two KEF KC62's.

 

P S Of course this only applies to those who attach their subs at speaker level. I am using a Focal hi-lo converter to achieve this as it gives me better results than a direct high level connection using an additional DAC.

[bodiebill]

6 hours ago, botrytis said:

Sounds like they want your ears to get used to the speakers. Break in is pretty much immediate. I agree @Racerxnet

 

If there was a difference, you could measure it. If you can't it is your brain that breaks in - expectation bias.

 

When swapping between a new pair and a broken-in pair, upon hearing a clear difference, what would you propose to measure?