Bits is bits?

[Soothsayerman]

On 8/6/2019 at 12:57 PM, Indydan said:

I found this article through Darko. The author makes a case that it isn't a case of Bits are bits. I wonder what others think?

 

 

https://www.upscaleaudio.com/pages/bits-is-bits?fbclid=IwAR20r8A_bUYGlDjzsbFfEKzNAB06vDsYOgTf_TUf7xXwpps6-kdggIay4bU

 

 

The gist of this article is absolutely correct and I know this from working in the telecommunication and enterprise computing industries for decades.  What is baffling to me is why it seems to be such an issue in the audio world. 

 

Part of it may stem from poor power supply design and implementation within audio equipment and the fact that manufacturers skimp on parts and power supplies and end up creating a very electrically noisy environment or an environment that does not manage heat well.   The other is that the application itself does not lend itself well to tolerating data buffers to deal with  error correction and then there is the whole jitter issue which everyone deals with in a variety of ways.  Clocking and frequency stability are issues.

 

In enterprise computing, power regulation and power cleanliness is a very important factor because it has a large impact in computing errors, downtime, equipment longevity etc and of course heat is an issue on the IC level and the environmental level.  Cables and connections do go bad and you would not really think that would be the case because they are seemingly inert but they're not.  Not all transmission mediums are the same (multimode vs singlemode fiber even though they're both glass) but once you get to a certain level, if everything else is accounted for, they should have no impact. 

 

It's a mystery wrapped in an enigma lying at the bottom of a beer glass that I'm sure has something to do with money.

 

 

[Soothsayerman]

22 minutes ago, marce said:

My main aim was to show digital (square wave signals) are pulses, current pulses, which is why the simulation software uses S parameters among other stuff. (to get the simulation to match the scope shots, you have to model the scope probe loading on the signal, most scope manufacturers have modelling info for their probes, its quite cool when the sims match the scope screen, don't get to play with it much these days,but if ever get time I've been meaning to download some USB driver IBIS data and model some USB cables, did some SPDIF years ago on DIYAudio several years ago to show just adding a 75R resistor cleans up the wave nicely.)

My own view on the article is a set of relatively true statements mixed together in a bit of a mishmash to promote the belief in cables...

This is my favourite bit.... ALL baseband Ethernet I have worked on has been digital, either on or off, not 16 different voltages... Maybe they are mixed up with broadband, which is frequency-division multiplexing, so I am unsure where the 16 different voltages comes from.

 

Ethernet uses different voltages depending on whether it uses POE or Gigabit Ethernet and what the muxing requirements are.   So, a signal over a Gigabit Ethernet cable represents two bits, instead of a single bit. In other words, instead of just using two voltages on a signal representing merely “0” or “1”, it uses four different voltages, representing “00”, “01”, “10” and “11”.  Factor in other engineering considerations and it can add up.  The data requirements and architecture for real time computing (streaming) are different than latent computing. But I'm sure everyone already knows this.  The data bus in streaming applications and therefore the transmission requirements are different than say a desktop environment.

 

[Soothsayerman]

26 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

 

I've been in IT and "enterprise computing" since the 80s and I'm really struggling to think of one example of $1000+ Ethernet cables that are used there.  In fact, I can't think of a single boutique "upgrade" in the realm of telecommunication or "enterprise computing".

 

Cables "go bad" all by themselves in your environment?  I'd check for a saboteur if I were you.

It's not a common thing, but I have been in many many data centers where a cable has failed. I would really suspect a manufacturing defect or, someone did not handle it properly or a datacenter where there are lots of adds moves changes where it gets abused.   I never said anything about boutique cables.  A data center is a perfect environment, your living room is not.

[Soothsayerman]

32 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

Ok, but you certainly implied that your experience in "many many" data centers validates the "need" for boutique cables in audio.  That's what we're talking about, by the way:  Audioquest marketing literature posted by the OP.

 

Do you always have an arrogant dickhead attitude or is it only when you're talking about audio?

Cables can make a difference depending on the system and environment they're used in. My belief is that the point of rapidly diminishing returns happens a heck of a lot faster than most cable manufacturers would want you to believe.  But the whole notion that a bit is a bit in the grand scheme of essentially a very complex data bus is not true when it comes to streaming.   Now if you think that is snake oil, I personally do not care. 

 

[Soothsayerman]

10 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

Your knee-jerk ad hominem isn't helping your cause.  You started with an appeal to authority, hence:

 

 

So Audioquest marketing material is "absolutely correct"?  I hope you'll forgive my skepticism.  And I'm just not understanding how your background validates, in any way, said marketing material.

 

I didn't call you an arrogant dickhead I asked about your attitude. It was actually an interrogative.  Like I said. I believe the point of rapidly diminishing returns occurs quickly in cables and that a bit isn't always a bit.   If that has too much gray area for you, there are a lot of things in life that are likely going to disappoint you.

[Soothsayerman]

16 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

I see you're dodging the question, but I'll try one last time: How does your career background validate that Audioquest marketing material?  I honestly want to know.

 

And you are dodging the original argument.  Who are you exactly? What is your background to doubt what I have said?  I honestly want to know.  Could you post your CV for us to peruse so we will have a better idea?

 

You are just grasping for traction, for anything to pretend you actually have an argument when you do not.  Please, continue to entertain us and by all means, do not depend on me to educate you for clearly, you do not need educating.  Goodbye.

 

PS.  It's Arrogant Dickhead.

Not Arrogant Bastard Ale which is a different thing altogether.

Maybe English is not your first language? but I digress...

[Soothsayerman]

1 minute ago, mansr said:

You are way out of line.

 

No I'm not, that is essentially what he asked me.

 

Besides, you're no referee, you're a troll.  A biased troll at that.