Any MSB fans here ?

[MarkusBarkus]

Glad you asked @divertiti!  For the Premiere demo, I eventually removed the V2 renderer module, which is a little computer, and added the Pro ISL/USB modules. I ran about 100 hours on the dac...and it really did improve, to me. Probably needed to stabilize the crystal too. 
 

The MSB Premiere has a very smooth sound, with good detail. Very easy to enjoy. Balanced and smooth. The ProISL/USB is a net-positive addition, IMO. I listened with and without it. 

 

To me, the Deconstructed Dave (SJ DC4 and Denefrips Gaia input to bypass Dave Amanero USB) is a pretty high-bar to leap. The MSB guys were a bit surprised I wasn't really wow-ed. 
 

I was wow-ed, but my baseline was wow.

 

Initially, I felt the DDave was ahead on points. It had a bit more drive on *some* content (some rock, some classical) and the imaging has a very delicious holographic, airy image.
 

I think Rob Watts' recents posts on HF reassert his position that the linear ps adds distortion. It's probably a type of distortion some folks like. It's probably the holographic aspect I hear/like.

 

The proper test is probably to revert back to stock Dave and compare, but....
 

In the end, it's probably a matter of preference: vanilla or chocolate. But it was close enough that I felt it wouldn't make sense to replace the DDave with the expensive Premiere dac.  
 

I told the dealer and MSB folks, IMO, to surpass the DDave to my ears, in my system/room...we would need to go to the Reference dac.

 

So, Saturday I made the long drive and picked-up the Reference, which now has about 40 hours on it at my place. 
 

It sounded pretty good out of the box (which is actually quite a set of aluminum luggage) and has improved a bit more this morning. I'll get more time listening this week, but it sounds very nice already. 

Smooth, like the Premiere, easy to listen to, but with a bit more detail, to me. Even this is not "airy" like the DDave, but the imaging and sound has more of those qualities... but in the MSB flavor.
 

I think this will be the move for me (don't tell MSB yet!). It has what I would expect and what I would need for a step beyond DDave. 
 

Both the MSB Premiere and the Reference dacs are very nice looking designs, and *very* excellent sounding pieces. Very nice indeed.

[skids929]

nice write up thanks for the information. As a Discrete owner, and after running the Discrete in various configurations, I would disagree with Vince's assertion the Pro USB is better than the digital inputs. I am finding AES sounds better than the Pro USB, in my system anyway. Pro USB does have a bit more bass drive but the rest of the sound is better via AES, which makes sense since it's a quiet connection with no power rails. 

 

I auditioned a DAVE (not deconstructed) and TT2 and found all Chord products lacked the musicality of MSB. As you mentioned imaging better, incredible PRaT with MSB. To each their own, but I think Chord sounds cold and artificial. Can't beat the form factor of it though, great for off a desk top. If you go reference you will never look back. I will be upgrading to a Premier soon as I can't imagine any DAC brand..Well thats a lie, I'd pull Rockna in, it's equally as spectacular in it's own way, for less money. 

 

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...and it's not lost on me that I have said I "like" the Chord sound...but then I set about changing it to not sound like Chord. Funny. 
 

I will use the Chord gear for a desktop/headphone system I have wanted for upstairs, when Sweetie is working. 
 

I have not tried the MSB as a pre-amp, but I know Vince G. is a strong proponent of that config. I like my pre-amp. I would have considered other dacs, but demo-ing them is a challenge. 

[skids929]

Just now, MarkusBarkus said:

...and it's not lost on me that I have said I "like" the Chord sound...but then I set about changing it to not sound like Chord. Funny. 
 

I will use the Chord gear for a desktop/headphone system I have wanted for upstairs, when Sweetie is working. 
 

I have not tried the MSB as a pre-amp, but I know Vince G. is a strong proponent of that config. I like my pre-amp. I would have considered other dacs, but demo-ing them is a challenge. 

 

 

I agree listening is important at this price point but difficult to do unfortunately. Yeah if I weren't in love with my Sugden I would consider the MSB as a pre, but there is NO way it will do a better job. 

 

I think as you run alot of music through your MSB you will realize how much it just sound natural. It took me lots of listening, and yes the sound opens up, but how it handles lots of music was an additional piece of the process that had me gain a ton of respect for what MSB does. Their prices are astronomical but they are truly end game DACs. If you're in this for the long haul it's worth it. I will probably just keep moving up within the line over time. 

 

Congrats on your decision. 

[divertiti]

13 hours ago, MarkusBarkus said:

It sounded pretty good out of the box (which is actually quite a set of aluminum luggage) and has improved a bit more this morning. I'll get more time listening this week, but it sounds very nice already. 

Smooth, like the Premiere, easy to listen to, but with a bit more detail, to me. Even this is not "airy" like the DDave, but the imaging and sound has more of those qualities... but in the MSB flavor.
 

I think this will be the move for me (don't tell MSB yet!). It has what I would expect and what I would need for a step beyond DDave. 
 

Both the MSB Premiere and the Reference dacs are very nice looking designs, and *very* excellent sounding pieces. Very nice indeed.

 

Thanks for the follow-up thoughts. In the write-up it's not immediately clear how large of a leap the Reference is from the Premiere or how much it exceeded the Dave. You said it was "Smooth like the premiere but with a bit more detail". That doesn't seem like it would be worth double the price to go up to near $50K. Can you elaborate a bit on that?

[skids929]

Just now, divertiti said:

 

Thanks for the follow-up thoughts. In the write-up it's not immediately clear how large of a leap the Reference is from the Premiere or how much it exceeded the Dave. You said it was "Smooth like the premiere but with a bit more detail". That doesn't seem like it would be worth double the price to go up to near $50K. Can you elaborate a bit on that?

 

 

you really can't approach audio this way. MSB would be out of business if that were the case. It's all about the ear and brain. Price doesn't dictate value or sound quality in this hobby incrementally...Unfortunately. 

[MarkusBarkus]

Reminder: the Reference dac is still finding its legs, IMO (about 45 hours). 
 

That said, it does sound a bit more insightful to my ears. And very musical. What's that even mean? To me: lively and full of life. Dynamic. Juicy-Fruit salivating goodness.
 

Where it really drew attention to my ears yesterday was with "albums" I considered maybe not my top-tier recordings. Not bad, but not notably excellent.
 

For example, Bluesy Burrell, by Kenny Burrell is nice, but it never held my attention all that much. Maybe just my personal problem.
 

On the Reference dac, it really sounds fuller, richer, very nice (sorry, I know I say "nice" a lot. Drives my wife nuts--a short trip, BTW). 
 

Hawkins' sax work is rich. Guitar notes sound full. Very nice. That weird, but very enticing sound electric jazz guitar can have, and I find in KB particularly. Beautiful tone. Round. Full of life.
 

I recognize some BS meters will light-up now, but the above impression was what I was thinking yesterday afternoon, and then in an email about 30 minutes ago, Vince G. (MSB) responded to an email from a few days back, citing this particular aspect with the Reference dac.  
 

Is this a bona-fide characteristic of the MSB Reference dac that you will feel---extracting more detail and "life" out of digital source material---or just marketing stuff?

You would have to decide by listening, but it's clear to me there is a lot of really good (nice!) stuff going on in the time domain, and with tonal reproduction. IMO, it is "fuller" than the DDave. Very seductive presentation...and not just with jazz guitar. 
 

I listened to a lot of voice presentation (admittedly mostly jazz), female and male. Melody Gardot's voice on "So We Meet Again My Heartache" is amazing. Kooky Blossom Dearie stuff. Full of life. "Comment Allez Vous?" Too much fun.

And various acoustic instruments. Tsuyoshi Yamamoto's piano on "Speak Low," or various Three Blind Mice offerings. Hot Tuna live at Troy Savings Bank. 
 

And Tash Sultana's Terra Firma. Electronica, or whatever the kids are calling it...that "girl" is amazing. Layers of sound.
 

Regarding the cost differential, and joy-per-dollar calculation, that would be between the audiophile and their spouse/banker. It's a lotta cabbage, for sure. It costs more that the first three or four cars I owned growing up.  But it is sweet. Really nice...

[divertiti]

1 hour ago, MarkusBarkus said:

Reminder: the Reference dac is still finding its legs, IMO (about 45 hours). 
 

That said, it does sound a bit more insightful to my ears. And very musical. What's that even mean? To me: lively and full of life. Dynamic. Juicy-Fruit salivating goodness.
 

Where it really drew attention to my ears yesterday was with "albums" I considered maybe not my top-tier recordings. Not bad, but not notably excellent.
 

For example, Bluesy Burrell, by Kenny Burrell is nice, but it never held my attention all that much. Maybe just my personal problem.
 

On the Reference dac, it really sounds fuller, richer, very nice (sorry, I know I say "nice" a lot. Drives my wife nuts--a short trip, BTW). 
 

Hawkins' sax work is rich. Guitar notes sound full. Very nice. That weird, but very enticing sound electric jazz guitar can have, and I find in KB particularly. Beautiful tone. Round. Full of life.
 

I recognize some BS meters will light-up now, but the above impression was what I was thinking yesterday afternoon, and then in an email about 30 minutes ago, Vince G. (MSB) responded to an email from a few days back, citing this particular aspect with the Reference dac.  
 

Is this a bona-fide characteristic of the MSB Reference dac that you will feel---extracting more detail and "life" out of digital source material---or just marketing stuff?

You would have to decide by listening, but it's clear to me there is a lot of really good (nice!) stuff going on in the time domain, and with tonal reproduction. IMO, it is "fuller" than the DDave. Very seductive presentation...and not just with jazz guitar. 
 

I listened to a lot of voice presentation (admittedly mostly jazz), female and male. Melody Gardot's voice on "So We Meet Again My Heartache" is amazing. Kooky Blossom Dearie stuff. Full of life. "Comment Allez Vous?" Too much fun.

And various acoustic instruments. Tsuyoshi Yamamoto's piano on "Speak Low," or various Three Blind Mice offerings. Hot Tuna live at Troy Savings Bank. 
 

And Tash Sultana's Terra Firma. Electronica, or whatever the kids are calling it...that "girl" is amazing. Layers of sound.
 

Regarding the cost differential, and joy-per-dollar calculation, that would be between the audiophile and their spouse/banker. It's a lotta cabbage, for sure. It costs more that the first three or four cars I owned growing up.  But it is sweet. Really nice...

Another really nice write-up Markus, it really captures what constitutes the MSB "magic". I imagine the Premiere had all those attributes as well, what would you say the biggest difference going from Premiere to Reference is? What made Premiere not rank above the Dave but the Reference does?

[MarkusBarkus]

...I have little doubt some would rate the Premiere above the Dave, even the modified Dave. The Premiere is very nice indeed.
 

For that taste-test, I think you would be ultimately choosing your flavor. Or at least, I was.
 

I thought the DDave had a bit more of a holographic representation, which I like a lot. So, for me, they were pretty close. Close enough, that I felt I would be making a change, but perhaps not an improvement long-term for my ears.

 

But, man this is such a subjective area of sound, and feeling the emotional impact of the music in your own nest.

Perhaps I could be comfortable writing the Dave had a slightly more intellectual presentation...but one might hasten to conclude it lacked emotion...but it (DD) really doesn't lack anything. 
 

Now, the Reference dac I think advances the ball. The pace, drive and rhythm is a bit more engaging to me. Tonally superb.
 

It seems like only a few minutes have elapsed and Sweetie is already down to watch Peaky Blinders on Netflix. 
 

The Ray Brown Trio-Live at the LOA: Summerwind is superb (as I write this). "Li'l Darlin'" is such a rich interplay of emotion. The audience is lively. So sweet.
 

The sound is full and smooth, but it does not lack detail...which makes me recall the first take on the "fresh out of the box" Premiere was that it lacked a little drive...oomph. I had a hifi pal over who felt the same. But that was a cold-shot, unsettled session. It surely improved a lot. A lot.

 

So, @divertitiI didn't actually answer your question re: the biggest difference between the two MSB dacs and what elevates the Reference above the DDave. Not sure I have a very helpful answer, and surely not one that maps easily to cost.

 

But I think it is both fair and accurate for me to report I think the Reference presents a more emotional, engaging sound.
 

The layers are rich and smooth like that seven layer cake my doctor would be horrified to know I love from the European bakeshop. It's rich, but still nuanced. Balanced. Not too sweet. Creamy audio goodness. Ridiculously expensive. Ridiculously good.

Was I any help at all? Not sure, but that's my take, as best I can verbalize it for others to relate to the emotion of it all. Cheers...

[divertiti]

19 hours ago, MarkusBarkus said:

...I have little doubt some would rate the Premiere above the Dave, even the modified Dave. The Premiere is very nice indeed.
 

For that taste-test, I think you would be ultimately choosing your flavor. Or at least, I was.
 

I thought the DDave had a bit more of a holographic representation, which I like a lot. So, for me, they were pretty close. Close enough, that I felt I would be making a change, but perhaps not an improvement long-term for my ears.

 

But, man this is such a subjective area of sound, and feeling the emotional impact of the music in your own nest.

Perhaps I could be comfortable writing the Dave had a slightly more intellectual presentation...but one might hasten to conclude it lacked emotion...but it (DD) really doesn't lack anything. 
 

Now, the Reference dac I think advances the ball. The pace, drive and rhythm is a bit more engaging to me. Tonally superb.
 

It seems like only a few minutes have elapsed and Sweetie is already down to watch Peaky Blinders on Netflix. 
 

The Ray Brown Trio-Live at the LOA: Summerwind is superb (as I write this). "Li'l Darlin'" is such a rich interplay of emotion. The audience is lively. So sweet.
 

The sound is full and smooth, but it does not lack detail...which makes me recall the first take on the "fresh out of the box" Premiere was that it lacked a little drive...oomph. I had a hifi pal over who felt the same. But that was a cold-shot, unsettled session. It surely improved a lot. A lot.

 

So, @divertitiI didn't actually answer your question re: the biggest difference between the two MSB dacs and what elevates the Reference above the DDave. Not sure I have a very helpful answer, and surely not one that maps easily to cost.

 

But I think it is both fair and accurate for me to report I think the Reference presents a more emotional, engaging sound.
 

The layers are rich and smooth like that seven layer cake my doctor would be horrified to know I love from the European bakeshop. It's rich, but still nuanced. Balanced. Not too sweet. Creamy audio goodness. Ridiculously expensive. Ridiculously good.

Was I any help at all? Not sure, but that's my take, as best I can verbalize it for others to relate to the emotion of it all. Cheers...

Markus, this totally makes sense and is very helpful. That's the game of audio, usually the difference between realism and total engagement vs. just really good hifi is just the last few percentage points. Sounds like the biggest advancement of the reference over premier is the pace, rhythm and drive, which I totally get. Thanks for sharing your experience, and congrats on the next level in your digital.

[MarkusBarkus]

...after about two weeks of listening to only the Reference and just right now switching back to the Dave/DC4/Gaia path, it sounds obvious to *me* that the MSB has more weight musically.
 

A lot of detail...gobs... in this Dave set-up, but by comparison,  the MSB has plenty of detail...but also more musical gravitas. To me. Cheers...

[skids929]

2 minutes ago, MarkusBarkus said:

...after about two weeks of listening to only the Reference and just right now switching back to the Dave/DC4/Gaia path, it sounds obvious to *me* that the MSB has more weight musically.
 

A lot of detail...gobs... in this Dave set-up, but by comparison,  the MSB has plenty of detail...but also more musical gravitas. To me. Cheers...

 

Yeah I can't imagine based on my time with the TT2 the DAVE would be even close to anything MSB makes. Chord sound is detailed, and it stops there..For my ear anyway. 

 

You keeping the reference? 

[MarkusBarkus]

Yeah. A lotta cabbage, but yes. Sell the MScaler, maybe a kidney, and enjoy the music.

[skids929]

Just now, MarkusBarkus said:

Yeah. A lotta cabbage, but yes. Sell the MScaler, maybe a kidney, and enjoy the music.

 

 

Lol....You will heal eventually and grow to rationalize why it's worth it over time. Worth it if you keep it a long while. I have a Discrete, and although I will end up in a Premier, I am not rushing to do so. Damn DAC sounds so analog I NEVER tire of listening to it. 

 

Enjoy your reference. MSB is special gear. 

[thyname]

I am pretty sure people who dabble in MSB stuff do NOT need to sell a kidney 😉

[Noushy]

Agreed.  I saved for a long time and have an amazing dealer who worked with me.  Did the upgrades little by little (femto clock, powerbase).  Yes mine is around $40k complete with all upgrades but to each his own.  People buy $200k cars all the time.

 

Noushy

[skids929]

59 minutes ago, Noushy said:

Agreed.  I saved for a long time and have an amazing dealer who worked with me.  Did the upgrades little by little (femto clock, powerbase).  Yes mine is around $40k complete with all upgrades but to each his own.  People buy $200k cars all the time.

 

Noushy

 

Agreed...If people amortized all the gear they bought and sold out of dissatisfaction, one MSB DAC is probably cheaper. I've been in the hobby long time, it was a worthy investment for how much I listen and for how much bad gear I've heard over the years. I won't name any one Brand specifically but they've been called out in this thread. 

[Noushy]

Yup and my dealer took really good care of me! I have a lifetime piece and the option to upgrade at any time

[skids929]

What speakers and amp are you using? Always curious to see what other MSB folks are using for equipment. 

[Noushy]

I have gone through a few changes and currently using Mcintosh C1100 pre, MC1.25KW amps, Sonus Faber Il Cremonese speakers, Shunyata cabling and power management.  Aurender N20 music server

[MarkusBarkus]

...on my end, I have Magico A5s, a pair of Luxman m900 amps, their c900 pre, and a Taiko Extreme server. Well treated room and a couple of dedicated lines. Honestly, one would be hard-pressed to determine local file or streaming.

[sbilotta]

and on my end I have Naim DBLs w/ custom paxo, Naim 500 Series amps and an Innuos Statement feeding my MSB.

[skids929]

32 minutes ago, MarkusBarkus said:

...on my end, I have Magico A5s, a pair of Luxman m900 amps, their c900 pre, and a Taiko Extreme server. Well treated room and a couple of dedicated lines. Honestly, one would be hard-pressed to determine local file or streaming.

 

 

Nice set up, pure Class A amps are key here. I am running a Bricasti server into my MSB feeding a Sugden IA4 (also pure ClassA) into a set of SF Electa which are some of my favorites speakers. All wired up with Tellurium Q Silver Diamond. I love this combination. A Premier will likely bring it to a place I won't feel the need to change for a while. Discrete is certainly no slouch, best DAC I have owned in my 20 years of buying hifi. 

[Mustu]

I have a REFERENCE amazing dac. 
 

I have noticed after the recent software update as the smart switching is set to default the following 

1) if I stop the music playing via roon ( pro usb ) it’s switches to tos link which is fine, as that’s connected but when it switches back to pro usb when I play a track on roon there is a 1 to 2 sec delay for the left channel. The delay is there even when it switched to toslink. 

2) I have swapped the XLR interconnections on the dac and it’s still the left channel on the dac  as then the right speaker is delayed for 1 to 2 seconds. 
 

please can someone check the same. 
 

thanks 
 

[MarkusBarkus]

@mustafakaiserI'm glad to see your post. I am also on the latest MSB firmware, and on the Reference dac. I experience the same left-channel delay you describe.

 

I only use the ProISL interface, BTW.

 

Before the update, there was no indication of this phenomenon. 
 

I also *think* it did not occur immediately upon ingesting the update, but only in the past week or so. But that may be a faulty memory on my part. 
 

In the past couple of days, I *may* have noticed there are some files that do not have the delay. I will have to listen and note these exceptions. 
 

I took this recent update in the hope it would stop a small delay in playing music at the beginning of most tracks (it did not). 
 

I was thinking perhaps there was some minor glitch in the handshake between the Taiko Extreme and the Reference, before the signal locked.

 

What is feeding your Reference dac? Cheers...