linear regulator after pico or seperate power supply?

[the_doc735]

Teddy193 - 19V 3.5A 66.5W (12 nanovolt ripple - lowest on the planet!)

picoPSU-160-XT, 160w output, DC-DC Power Supply

MSI Z370i GAMING PRO CARBON AC mini - ITX

PF i2s PCIe expansion card. (PF have verified voltage requirement)

 

 

I am interested to know if:

 

the setup should be left alone - as is? (i.e. just PICO?)

 

OR

is it possible to put a linear regulator on the PATA/MOLEX 12v line for the i2s card? (what device would be required?)

is it possible to put a linear regulator on the CPU 12v line for the CPU?  (what device would be required?)

 

OR

Have a seperate LPSU for the PATA/MOLEX 12v line for the i2s card?

Have a seperate LPSU for the CPU 12v line for the CPU?

 

Please refer to picture!

 

Many thanks!

 

PS: I know I need the 4 to 8 pin CPU converter cable B.T.W. (LOL)

 

 

[the_doc735]

WOW!

 

...I am still confident that there is someone on here qualified to answer this? Let's concentrate on the problem area! (only)...

 

Is there any reason why I can't connect the mobo 12v 8 pin ATX CPU connector directly to a LPSU?

Is there any reason why I can't connect the i2s 12v molex 4 pin connector directly to a LPSU?

 

[the_doc735]

3 minutes ago, Tomslin said:

No, in both cases. I have been doing this with batteries for many years.

really great!!

[the_doc735]

2 hours ago, Tomslin said:

No, in both cases. I have been doing this with batteries for many years.

...don't suppose you know what amperage I need for the 8pin ATX CPU & I2s card?

 

I do know they both need 12V.

 

CPU will be 35W 'T' model

 

If you still use 24 pin ATX mobo, how do you power it, if you're not using a pico?

 

Lastly, do you happen to know if the 12v source on the pico's PASS STRAIGHT THROUGH to the mobo (without processing)?

 

many thanks!

[the_doc735]

14 hours ago, Tomslin said:

 

Measure with a DC clamp meter for to have exact values. Better than speculating.

 

 

See here: http://jplay.eu/forum/index.php?/topic/1979-rebuild-and-improved-power-supply-for-a-singlepc/?p=33317

 

 

It does not really matter if it pass straight through to the CPU slot or not. Because the CPU can (and will) anyway contaminate power to the rest of motherboard, because it is the only power feed. This is also a disadvantage with the pico, in my opinion. Having the CPU feed separately is always an advantage, with or without pico.

 

those DC clamps look quite LARGE (industrial) e.g. household wiring. Are there small ones for electronics?

 

So, do you have seperate batteries/PSU's for the: yellow, red, orange, black, blue, grey, green, white and purple wires? (instead of pico)?

Thanks for the link! Sorry for being 'dense'!

 

THIN Mini-ITX boards have just a single 12v DC barrel connector plug/socket (from PSU). Does this in effect mean that those boards have a 'kind of' pico electronics embedded into them in order to split up the voltages (3.3/5/12/)?

[the_doc735]

12 hours ago, Tomslin said:

Clamp meters are quite large for a wide area of work. They are also suitable for electronics as long as they are not about measuring directly on PCB (circuit boards), ie as long as you have wire. I can’t see any problem to use it for your purpose.

It’s only yellow, red and orange who feed main power to the motherboard. Black is negative/common for all, and the other colors are for control voltages. So it can actually work well with four power feeds/rails including one for the CPU.

Pretty sure that voltage gets split up in that way you describe, generally at least. But more separation with different power feeds are better in my opinion. For the same reason, I think that motherboards with 24-pin ATX power slots are better than these with only one main power feed. But if you choose to use pico there instead, the differences will decrease again.

 

I  found this that measures from 1mA upwards: https://metermaster.co.nz/clampmeter-ca40.php ?

Yes, that's what I thought regarding the number of feeds (+ 1 for the molex/i2s/PCIe). The rest can come off a SMPS I suppose? ?

Yes, I agree with your thoughts about the single 12v barrel connector thin mini-ITX mobo's! ?

[the_doc735]

@Tomslin 

"All motherboard must have +12V, +5V, +3,3V and a common minus for these voltages. Therefore are it four wires. The fifth is for +5V stand by and is necessary for this MB and has same common minus as the other voltages.

Why is it so many wires in ordinary cases, you may ask. All the wires with same color are common and can simply be reduced to one. It's yellow, red, orange and black and these are necessary. It’s the three power lines I describe here above. You also have blue, grey, green, white and purple and this are (extendial?) as control voltages etc. Some of these can be needed in some cases. And why it have to be 20 or 24 wires in normal cases, have with current ATX standard to do, and only partly with the real function.

Both my server board can and will work without +5V stand by (purple) and then it only four wires. Look at this and this picture. But it’s never a disadvantage to have the 5V standby, so I have now five also to these. 

Tomas"

 

...so do you have 3, 4, or 5 seperate feeds (or do you split some of them (e.g. 1 feed into 2)?

1) 3.3v default

2) 5v default

3) 5v standby

4) 12v default

5) 12v CPU

 

...PRESUME: -12, -5, PS-ON, PG are not critical feeds?

 

what's the ripple/noise level on your current PSU/Batteries?

 

many thanks!

[the_doc735]

what is the function of: -12, -5, PS-ON, & PG, on the 24 pin moby ATX socket/plug?

thanks!

[the_doc735]

@Tomslin

Is the PPA CF to SATA adapter with KingSpec 16GB SLC CF with seperate LPSU,  'better' for audio than a M.2. NVMe SSD? (e.g. Samsung 250GB 960 M.2 (2280)  Evo PCIe 3.0 (x4) NVMe 3D V-NAND SSD MZ-V6E250BW)?

[the_doc735]

For anyone interested:

 

The −12 V supply was primarily used to provide the negative supply voltage for RS-232 ports and is also used by one pin on conventional PCI slots primarily to provide a reference voltage for some models of sound cards.

 

Formerly −5 V (white wire), absent in modern power supplies; it was optional in ATX and ATX12V v1.2 and deleted since v1.3. A −5 V output was originally required because it was supplied on the ISA bus; it was removed in later versions of the ATX standard, as it became obsolete with the removal of the ISA bus expansion slots (the ISA bus itself is still found in any computer which is compatible with the old IBM PC specification.

 

PS_ON (power on) is a signal from the motherboard to the power supply. When the line is connected to ground (by the motherboard), the power supply turns on. It is internally pulled up to +5 V inside the power supply. A control signal that is pulled up to +5 V by the PSU and must be driven low to turn on the PSU.

 

PG - PWR_OK ("power good") is an output from the power supply that indicates that its output has stabilized and is ready for use. It remains low for a brief time (100–500 ms) after the PS_ON# signal is pulled low. A control signal that is low when other outputs have not yet reached, or are about to leave, correct voltages.

 

The +5 VSB supply is used to produce trickle power to provide the soft-power feature of ATX when a PC is turned off, as well as powering the real-time clock to conserve the charge of the CMOS battery. +5 VSB (+5 V standby) supplies power even when the rest of the supply wire lines are off. This can be used to power the circuitry that controls the power-on signal.

 

@Tomslin     ....thanks for the Wikipedia suggestion! ?

 

This is also useful: http://www.tirnahifi.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2832&sid=d94e9ac440e08b1d26b9c464bb59aebd

 

[the_doc735]

And don't forget this one: http://jplay.eu/forum/index.php?/topic/1979-rebuild-and-improved-power-supply-for-a-singlepc/   ?

[the_doc735]

Contrary to this though:

@Dev    said:

 

"I had a small discussion with Paul Pang and he thinks that a pico will work just fine. Incidentally, two other well known psu companies, Uptone & Mojo audio believes the same." Also, Sean Jacobs is firmly in agreement with this opinion; and Teddy Pardo won't say 'either-way'?

 

However, in Tomslin's case, he believes that a pico is not so well suited and it has no place in Hi-Fi, in his opinion.

 

So, take your pick? (LOL).

 

[the_doc735]

4 hours ago, TubeMan said:

"I had a small discussion with Paul Pang and he thinks that a pico will work just fine."

of course it will  works !,

 

but how will its sounds compare to Full LPS power supply

well, do both and see what you think, and then share your findings with us please! Many Thanks!

[the_doc735]

3 hours ago, Tomslin said:

And here you do a nice turn to restart the debate, right? Do you really want to discuss this to absurdity?

Exactly! That is where we have the dividing line. I have not heard anyone who actually compared the full rail ATX LPS and Pico side by side and have said that Pico sounds better.

"Do you really want to discuss this to absurdity?"

 

No, I'm just simply stating a fact that there are opinions on both/all sides of a debate, and it's not offensive or rude in any way! People have the right to decide there own verdict based upon the cases "for & against" (i.e. the prosecution & the defence) the argument. If people want to add comments to this thread, they are quite welcome to do so in my opinion and I will read from a neutral point of view. Be that pico, or no pico. Thanks for asking!

 

B.T.W. Tomslin, you have given me a lot of help, cheers!

[the_doc735]

1 hour ago, hurka said:

4 lt3045 3.3v-4 lt3045 5v-4 lt1963 7v-sigma 11 -r core transformers-power regenearator sound excellent 

???

 

[the_doc735]

50 minutes ago, TubeMan said:

I did that several years ago !!,
PICO sounds flat and lack of detail compared to LPS ATX,

 

 

ok - great!

[the_doc735]

31 minutes ago, hurka said:

Same as innuos zenith mk2 se....

???

[the_doc735]

http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story9&reid=207

PicoPSU 120-WI-25 works with 19V input using the FSP power brick. "Ripple suppression: Once again, there's no ripple on the +3.3V and +5V, but also the +12V is cleaned up significantly. Score here is a 10/10."  ~ Wow! Two jonnyGURU Recommended's in one day! Once again, the FSP power brick shows that it's the best power brick... and I like what the PicoPSU 120-WI-25 can do with it.

[the_doc735]

18 hours ago, hurka said:

raill separation with pico just the joke

?

[the_doc735]

18 hours ago, hurka said:

Pico save your stupid gamer mobo, otherwise demaged.supermicro mobo can’t demage.

???

 

[the_doc735]

18 hours ago, hurka said:

Tx usb ultra use single regulators and cheap xo. 

???

 

[the_doc735]

6 hours ago, Tomslin said:

This is “old junk” that is not even relevant in this context. I mean, if your “debate” here really are about the best possible power supply for a computer, ie for best possible audio reproduction. And this article has nothing to do with that. It's even written on page 1 under introduction: "The popularity of mini-ITX continues to grow as people build media centers and in car entertainment systems that don't require as much power as a standard, full sized ATX computer needs, and doesn't have the room to accommodate a full sized ATX power supply". But I guess you just saw many fine ripple values, which seems to interest you the most, though it in the reality are quite uninteresting.

If you are really interested in creating a really good computer system for the best possible audio reproduction, I recommend that you read this. It’s very well written and focuses on what really is important.

https://www.pursuitperfectsystem.com/building-the-ultimate-music-server---hardware.html

Yes, Sorry, it does look as though I have indeed taken it 'out of context!' Many Apologies! Bit harsh to call it 'old junk' though? I'll have a look at the link you suplied and see what I think of it.

[the_doc735]

1 hour ago, the_doc735 said:

Yes, Sorry, it does look as though I have indeed taken it 'out of context!' Many Apologies! Bit harsh to call it 'old junk' though? I'll have a look at the link you suplied and see what I think of it.

First impression (of link), looks like a big JCAT promo! ?

[the_doc735]

12 hours ago, Tomslin said:

If you are really interested in creating a really good computer system for the best possible audio reproduction, I recommend that you read this. It’s very well written and focuses on what really is important.

https://www.pursuitperfectsystem.com/building-the-ultimate-music-server---hardware.html

In a nutshell:

 

JCAT Audio PC Chassis

JCAT 400W PC Linear Power Supply [same as HDPlex!] 5mV ripple.

Asus PZ87 [Micro] ATX Mobo

Intel Core i7 2700k CPU (TDP 95W!)

NB: Lower power in the CPU will mean less noise from the switching regulators on the motherboard and therefore better sound, but by all accounts i7 CPU’s sound better.

8GB ECC Industrial Grade Ram

Small capacity SATA SSD (for O/S, Audio apps.)

Separate storage for audio files.

NB: You could choose SSD, M2.SSD, (NVMe), USB Stick or a mechanical hard drive.  When it comes to sound quality there are a few hard and fast rules you should adhere to.

Specialist O/S SSD by PPA w/OCXO (uses lots of power & slow). You need to copy a clone version of an o/s installation onto this device.

JCAT SATA cable(s)

JCAT USB Card FEMTO w/JCAT 200W Linear Power Supply

JCAT NET Card FEMTO w/JCAT 200W Linear Power Supply

JCAT Reference USB Cable

JCAT USB Isolator & USB-ISO Cable

3M AB5100s chassis RFI/EMI absorber

JCAT M12 SWITCH GOLD [for networking]

 

Note: A far better approach will be to use a Pico PSU w/LPSU. Using a good Linear Power Supply with pico will sound far better than the usual pc SMPS. This is not a small difference it’s a night and day difference and it’s actually the first thing I tried for achieving better sound from a dedicated pc source.

 

*******************************************************************************

 

MY HTPC:

 

MSI Z370i GAMING PRO CARBON AC mini-ITX + Intel® HD Integrated Graphics 630.

Intel Core i7 Coffee Lake 8700 SE Gen.8 2.9GHz LGA1151 TDP 35W CPU.

Pink Faun i2s Bridge PCI-e (expansion/riser) Card.

Samsung (only 250GB) 960 M.2 (2280) Evo PCIe 3.0 (x4) NVMe 3D V-NAND SSD MZ-V6E250BW (x1).

Patriot Viper 4 16GB Dual Ch. DDR4 3000MHz PC4-24000 DIMM PV416G300C6K.

Streacom st-fc9b-opt-alpha PC Fanless Chassis.

Paul Hynes/Teddy Pardo LPSU’s [12 nV ripple].

 

I don’t need anything related to USB because I use i2s.

I don’t need anything related to networking because I don’t use the PC for this purpose.

I don’t need SATA cables because the NVMe SSD M.2. plugs direct to mobo.

 

I am told on this forum (C.A.) that I don’t need OCXO for this PC because the master clock is in the DAC, in my setup, and that the Crystek 575 in my DAC is already a very high quality clock which would require ‘a ton of money’ for any significant improvement. Moreover, there are apparently ‘buffers’ between the clocks that negate any errors. So, this means that fitting an OCXO to the PF i2s PCIe card would be pretty pointless as it’s not the master clock in the chain and I am not aware of anyone who has successfully fitted OCXO clocks to a commercial mobo, even paul pang withdrew his product due to incompatibility issues.

 

I have not used any 3M AB5100s chassis RFI/EMI absorber, or similar.

 

Music storage is external. Currently using USB v3 memory stick. Does anyone have any ideas about what is the best external storage for music files? 

 

[the_doc735]

5 hours ago, billg said:

I use a dedicated network file server. It's windows 2016 on ssd,  Audiophile Optimizer, music files on internal HDD with a SoTM noise filter, minimserver. I definitely prefer it to the qnap nas I previously used.

 

Of course you can trick this out forever with linear power supplies, network cards, cables, etc. 

 

See this Jplay thread for more details. 

 

not quite sure of your meaning? I have windows 10/64 bit. Not heard of windows 2016? Please DO elaborate a lot! Thanks!

network file server?

windows 2016 on ssd?

Audiophile Optimizer?

SoTM noise filter?

minimserver?

 

...needs clear/concise clarification please!