the_doc735 Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 Teddy193 - 19V 3.5A 66.5W (12 nanovolt ripple - lowest on the planet!) picoPSU-160-XT, 160w output, DC-DC Power Supply MSI Z370i GAMING PRO CARBON AC mini - ITX PF i2s PCIe expansion card. (PF have verified voltage requirement) I am interested to know if: the setup should be left alone - as is? (i.e. just PICO?) OR is it possible to put a linear regulator on the PATA/MOLEX 12v line for the i2s card? (what device would be required?) is it possible to put a linear regulator on the CPU 12v line for the CPU? (what device would be required?) OR Have a seperate LPSU for the PATA/MOLEX 12v line for the i2s card? Have a seperate LPSU for the CPU 12v line for the CPU? Please refer to picture! Many thanks! PS: I know I need the 4 to 8 pin CPU converter cable B.T.W. (LOL) Link to comment
the_doc735 Posted August 22, 2018 Author Share Posted August 22, 2018 WOW! ...I am still confident that there is someone on here qualified to answer this? Let's concentrate on the problem area! (only)... Is there any reason why I can't connect the mobo 12v 8 pin ATX CPU connector directly to a LPSU? Is there any reason why I can't connect the i2s 12v molex 4 pin connector directly to a LPSU? Link to comment
Popular Post Tomslin Posted August 22, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted August 22, 2018 No, in both cases. I have been doing this with batteries for many years. the_doc735 and jabbr 1 1 Link to comment
the_doc735 Posted August 22, 2018 Author Share Posted August 22, 2018 3 minutes ago, Tomslin said: No, in both cases. I have been doing this with batteries for many years. really great!! Link to comment
the_doc735 Posted August 22, 2018 Author Share Posted August 22, 2018 2 hours ago, Tomslin said: No, in both cases. I have been doing this with batteries for many years. ...don't suppose you know what amperage I need for the 8pin ATX CPU & I2s card? I do know they both need 12V. CPU will be 35W 'T' model If you still use 24 pin ATX mobo, how do you power it, if you're not using a pico? Lastly, do you happen to know if the 12v source on the pico's PASS STRAIGHT THROUGH to the mobo (without processing)? many thanks! Link to comment
Popular Post Tomslin Posted August 22, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted August 22, 2018 8 hours ago, the_doc735 said: ...don't suppose you know what amperage I need for the 8pin ATX CPU & I2s card? I do know they both need 12V. CPU will be 35W 'T' model Measure with a DC clamp meter for to have exact values. Better than speculating. 8 hours ago, the_doc735 said: If you still use 24 pin ATX mobo, how do you power it, if you're not using a pico? See here: http://jplay.eu/forum/index.php?/topic/1979-rebuild-and-improved-power-supply-for-a-singlepc/?p=33317 8 hours ago, the_doc735 said: Lastly, do you happen to know if the 12v source on the pico's PASS STRAIGHT THROUGH to the mobo (without processing)? many thanks! It does not really matter if it pass straight through to the CPU slot or not. Because the CPU can (and will) anyway contaminate power to the rest of motherboard, because it is the only power feed. This is also a disadvantage with the pico, in my opinion. Having the CPU feed separately is always an advantage, with or without pico. szczemirek and the_doc735 1 1 Link to comment
the_doc735 Posted August 23, 2018 Author Share Posted August 23, 2018 14 hours ago, Tomslin said: Measure with a DC clamp meter for to have exact values. Better than speculating. See here: http://jplay.eu/forum/index.php?/topic/1979-rebuild-and-improved-power-supply-for-a-singlepc/?p=33317 It does not really matter if it pass straight through to the CPU slot or not. Because the CPU can (and will) anyway contaminate power to the rest of motherboard, because it is the only power feed. This is also a disadvantage with the pico, in my opinion. Having the CPU feed separately is always an advantage, with or without pico. those DC clamps look quite LARGE (industrial) e.g. household wiring. Are there small ones for electronics? So, do you have seperate batteries/PSU's for the: yellow, red, orange, black, blue, grey, green, white and purple wires? (instead of pico)? Thanks for the link! Sorry for being 'dense'! THIN Mini-ITX boards have just a single 12v DC barrel connector plug/socket (from PSU). Does this in effect mean that those boards have a 'kind of' pico electronics embedded into them in order to split up the voltages (3.3/5/12/)? Link to comment
Tomslin Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 Clamp meters are quite large for a wide area of work. They are also suitable for electronics as long as they are not about measuring directly on PCB (circuit boards), ie as long as you have wire. I can’t see any problem to use it for your purpose. It’s only yellow, red and orange who feed main power to the motherboard. Black is negative/common for all, and the other colors are for control voltages. So it can actually work well with four power feeds/rails including one for the CPU. Pretty sure that voltage gets split up in that way you describe, generally at least. But more separation with different power feeds are better in my opinion. For the same reason, I think that motherboards with 24-pin ATX power slots are better than these with only one main power feed. But if you choose to use pico there instead, the differences will decrease again. the_doc735 1 Link to comment
the_doc735 Posted August 24, 2018 Author Share Posted August 24, 2018 12 hours ago, Tomslin said: Clamp meters are quite large for a wide area of work. They are also suitable for electronics as long as they are not about measuring directly on PCB (circuit boards), ie as long as you have wire. I can’t see any problem to use it for your purpose. It’s only yellow, red and orange who feed main power to the motherboard. Black is negative/common for all, and the other colors are for control voltages. So it can actually work well with four power feeds/rails including one for the CPU. Pretty sure that voltage gets split up in that way you describe, generally at least. But more separation with different power feeds are better in my opinion. For the same reason, I think that motherboards with 24-pin ATX power slots are better than these with only one main power feed. But if you choose to use pico there instead, the differences will decrease again. I found this that measures from 1mA upwards: https://metermaster.co.nz/clampmeter-ca40.php ? Yes, that's what I thought regarding the number of feeds (+ 1 for the molex/i2s/PCIe). The rest can come off a SMPS I suppose? ? Yes, I agree with your thoughts about the single 12v barrel connector thin mini-ITX mobo's! ? Link to comment
the_doc735 Posted August 24, 2018 Author Share Posted August 24, 2018 @Tomslin "All motherboard must have +12V, +5V, +3,3V and a common minus for these voltages. Therefore are it four wires. The fifth is for +5V stand by and is necessary for this MB and has same common minus as the other voltages. Why is it so many wires in ordinary cases, you may ask. All the wires with same color are common and can simply be reduced to one. It's yellow, red, orange and black and these are necessary. It’s the three power lines I describe here above. You also have blue, grey, green, white and purple and this are (extendial?) as control voltages etc. Some of these can be needed in some cases. And why it have to be 20 or 24 wires in normal cases, have with current ATX standard to do, and only partly with the real function. Both my server board can and will work without +5V stand by (purple) and then it only four wires. Look at this and this picture. But it’s never a disadvantage to have the 5V standby, so I have now five also to these. Tomas" ...so do you have 3, 4, or 5 seperate feeds (or do you split some of them (e.g. 1 feed into 2)? 1) 3.3v default 2) 5v default 3) 5v standby 4) 12v default 5) 12v CPU ...PRESUME: -12, -5, PS-ON, PG are not critical feeds? what's the ripple/noise level on your current PSU/Batteries? many thanks! Link to comment
the_doc735 Posted August 24, 2018 Author Share Posted August 24, 2018 what is the function of: -12, -5, PS-ON, & PG, on the 24 pin moby ATX socket/plug? thanks! Link to comment
Popular Post Solid-State Posted August 24, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted August 24, 2018 http://www.tirnahifi.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2832&sid=d94e9ac440e08b1d26b9c464bb59aebd the_doc735 and Tomslin 2 Link to comment
the_doc735 Posted August 24, 2018 Author Share Posted August 24, 2018 @Tomslin Is the PPA CF to SATA adapter with KingSpec 16GB SLC CF with seperate LPSU, 'better' for audio than a M.2. NVMe SSD? (e.g. Samsung 250GB 960 M.2 (2280) Evo PCIe 3.0 (x4) NVMe 3D V-NAND SSD MZ-V6E250BW)? Link to comment
Tomslin Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 9 hours ago, the_doc735 said: I can see you have mirrored the image to the right to make it graphically fit with the image on the left, which is the corresponding female connector seen from the underside. The first time I saw this picture, I think; “what a hell is that!!” I recognized my old picture, but it seemed damn strange until I revealed your photoshopping 9 hours ago, the_doc735 said: ...so do you have 3, 4, or 5 seperate feeds (or do you split some of them (e.g. 1 feed into 2)? 1) 3.3v default 2) 5v default 3) 5v standby 4) 12v default 5) 12v CPU ...PRESUME: -12, -5, PS-ON, PG are not critical feeds? what's the ripple/noise level on your current PSU/Batteries? many thanks! I still maintain that I have four feeds in total including the CPU. 5V SB is not a separate feed, it is rather a control voltage to keep some parts on the motherboard with constantly power. Mostly it works just as well without. 5V SB will not draw any current. Ripple/noise level on my current battery setup is definitely nothing I’m worried about. I would be surprised if it even is measurable. 5 hours ago, the_doc735 said: what is the function of: -12, -5, PS-ON, & PG, on the 24 pin moby ATX socket/plug? thanks! Exactly how the ATX power supply standard work can you read about on Wikipedia, for example. Google it. I will not even try to explain this here and now 4 hours ago, the_doc735 said: @Tomslin Is the PPA CF to SATA adapter with KingSpec 16GB SLC CF with seperate LPSU, 'better' for audio than a M.2. NVMe SSD? (e.g. Samsung 250GB 960 M.2 (2280) Evo PCIe 3.0 (x4) NVMe 3D V-NAND SSD MZ-V6E250BW)? Sorry, but I have not done that comparison so I can’t tell anything about it. the_doc735 1 Link to comment
Tomslin Posted August 25, 2018 Share Posted August 25, 2018 11 hours ago, Tomslin said: I can see you have mirrored the image to the right to make it graphically fit with the image on the left, which is the corresponding female connector seen from the underside. Wrote a little wrong there ... On the contrary, it should be, of course the_doc735 1 Link to comment
Popular Post the_doc735 Posted August 25, 2018 Author Popular Post Share Posted August 25, 2018 For anyone interested: The −12 V supply was primarily used to provide the negative supply voltage for RS-232 ports and is also used by one pin on conventional PCI slots primarily to provide a reference voltage for some models of sound cards. Formerly −5 V (white wire), absent in modern power supplies; it was optional in ATX and ATX12V v1.2 and deleted since v1.3. A −5 V output was originally required because it was supplied on the ISA bus; it was removed in later versions of the ATX standard, as it became obsolete with the removal of the ISA bus expansion slots (the ISA bus itself is still found in any computer which is compatible with the old IBM PC specification. PS_ON (power on) is a signal from the motherboard to the power supply. When the line is connected to ground (by the motherboard), the power supply turns on. It is internally pulled up to +5 V inside the power supply. A control signal that is pulled up to +5 V by the PSU and must be driven low to turn on the PSU. PG - PWR_OK ("power good") is an output from the power supply that indicates that its output has stabilized and is ready for use. It remains low for a brief time (100–500 ms) after the PS_ON# signal is pulled low. A control signal that is low when other outputs have not yet reached, or are about to leave, correct voltages. The +5 VSB supply is used to produce trickle power to provide the soft-power feature of ATX when a PC is turned off, as well as powering the real-time clock to conserve the charge of the CMOS battery. +5 VSB (+5 V standby) supplies power even when the rest of the supply wire lines are off. This can be used to power the circuitry that controls the power-on signal. @Tomslin ....thanks for the Wikipedia suggestion! ? This is also useful: http://www.tirnahifi.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2832&sid=d94e9ac440e08b1d26b9c464bb59aebd Tomslin, mozes and szczemirek 2 1 Link to comment
the_doc735 Posted August 25, 2018 Author Share Posted August 25, 2018 And don't forget this one: http://jplay.eu/forum/index.php?/topic/1979-rebuild-and-improved-power-supply-for-a-singlepc/ ? Link to comment
the_doc735 Posted August 25, 2018 Author Share Posted August 25, 2018 Contrary to this though: @Dev said: "I had a small discussion with Paul Pang and he thinks that a pico will work just fine. Incidentally, two other well known psu companies, Uptone & Mojo audio believes the same." Also, Sean Jacobs is firmly in agreement with this opinion; and Teddy Pardo won't say 'either-way'? However, in Tomslin's case, he believes that a pico is not so well suited and it has no place in Hi-Fi, in his opinion. So, take your pick? (LOL). Link to comment
Solid-State Posted August 25, 2018 Share Posted August 25, 2018 "I had a small discussion with Paul Pang and he thinks that a pico will work just fine." of course it will works !, but how will its sounds compare to Full LPS power supply the_doc735 1 Link to comment
Tomslin Posted August 25, 2018 Share Posted August 25, 2018 2 hours ago, the_doc735 said: Contrary to this though: @Dev said: "I had a small discussion with Paul Pang and he thinks that a pico will work just fine. Incidentally, two other well known psu companies, Uptone & Mojo audio believes the same." Also, Sean Jacobs is firmly in agreement with this opinion; and Teddy Pardo won't say 'either-way'? However, in Tomslin's case, he believes that a pico is not so well suited and it has no place in Hi-Fi, in his opinion. So, take your pick? (LOL). And here you do a nice turn to restart the debate, right? Do you really want to discuss this to absurdity? 40 minutes ago, TubeMan said: "I had a small discussion with Paul Pang and he thinks that a pico will work just fine." of course it will works !, but how will its sounds compare to Full LPS power supply Exactly! That is where we have the dividing line. I have not heard anyone who actually compared the full rail ATX LPS and Pico side by side and have said that Pico sounds better. Link to comment
the_doc735 Posted August 25, 2018 Author Share Posted August 25, 2018 4 hours ago, TubeMan said: "I had a small discussion with Paul Pang and he thinks that a pico will work just fine." of course it will works !, but how will its sounds compare to Full LPS power supply well, do both and see what you think, and then share your findings with us please! Many Thanks! Link to comment
the_doc735 Posted August 25, 2018 Author Share Posted August 25, 2018 3 hours ago, Tomslin said: And here you do a nice turn to restart the debate, right? Do you really want to discuss this to absurdity? Exactly! That is where we have the dividing line. I have not heard anyone who actually compared the full rail ATX LPS and Pico side by side and have said that Pico sounds better. "Do you really want to discuss this to absurdity?" No, I'm just simply stating a fact that there are opinions on both/all sides of a debate, and it's not offensive or rude in any way! People have the right to decide there own verdict based upon the cases "for & against" (i.e. the prosecution & the defence) the argument. If people want to add comments to this thread, they are quite welcome to do so in my opinion and I will read from a neutral point of view. Be that pico, or no pico. Thanks for asking! B.T.W. Tomslin, you have given me a lot of help, cheers! Link to comment
hurka Posted August 25, 2018 Share Posted August 25, 2018 4 lt3045 3.3v-4 lt3045 5v-4 lt1963 7v-sigma 11 -r core transformers-power regenearator sound excellent Link to comment
Solid-State Posted August 25, 2018 Share Posted August 25, 2018 56 minutes ago, the_doc735 said: well, do both and see what you think, and then share your findings with us please! Many Thanks! I did that several years ago !!,PICO sounds flat and lack of detail compared to LPS ATX, the_doc735 1 Link to comment
hurka Posted August 25, 2018 Share Posted August 25, 2018 18 minutes ago, TubeMan said: I did that several years ago !!,PICO sounds flat and lack of detail compared to LPS ATX, Same as innuos zenith mk2 se.... Link to comment
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