dedicated player or pc?

[the_doc735]

...I don't seem to be making any headway with this PC LPSU at all. Quite a few contributors say the problem is with the PC mainboards themselves!v i.e. far to many switching devices on board the atx format?

Should I therefore ditch the PC concept altogether and go for a Hi-Fi unit that can play via CD & USB stick? Not bothered about DVD or Blu-Ray, not bothered about streaming things like spotify etc. Just CD & memory stick only!! Also, I have a dedicated LKS DAC so any player wouldn't need a DAC built in because I already have one!

 

Can any dedicated player easily out perform a PC for audio reproduction purposes?   i.e. the player (streamer) is dedicated to that task alone, compared to a PC that is a:  'jack of all trades (but master of none)'?

 

What choices are there in dedicated players (streamers)?

Can players display on a TV screen? (e.g. for track selection)?

Are players LPSU or SMPS?

 

...thanks in advance for info provided.

[kelvinwsy]

The way I see it is

1. Do you need upsampling say even to DSD512 - or you let the DAC do that job

This will determine whether you go with a High Power PC (i6700k/7700k/or even AMD1920/1950x) or a low wattage one (eg SuperMicro X10SBA) that quite a few on CA are using. Many on CA swear by Native 44.1/48khz or FLAC format.

2. The above determines whether what sort of Power Supply Unit you need. I have tried the HDPlex 400 watt LPSU - was not powerful enough to drive the GPU on my i6700k - Of course i could have used a dual PSU approach (HDPlex on the Mobo and a Switching ATX PSU or other to drive the GPU) but decided against this.

3. The low wattage PC approach uses 12v or at most 19v DC / 5v power = Low current - Very easy to do with Cheapo Chinese LPSU or even some on CA are doing the 3045 High Current Regulator downstream of a 13.5/15v energizing power unit

4. Or you could do the standard ATX PSU but do mods(LOTS of it). Use a PC ATX PSU like i do (Corsair unit ) You have the Seasonic on your list from what you post.) Add lots of filtering mods.

I use capacitor in line special Corsair Type 4 cables, Elfidelity DRAM filters. Fan Filters for Case and CPU Fans, SOTM II filter for my OSU SSD (Intel X-25E Sata II SSD), Elfidelity SATA III filter for my HDD (Music files) and PCie plug in Power Filters. Good for sub-10 mV ripple but cannot claim any records. Add 5 V and 12 V LPSU for my OS SSD and HDD, Audiophile USB PCie Card. 

5. Go 2 PC method - HQPlayer running on i6700k Main PC via ethernet to a Net Audio Appliance (NAA) fanless minipc (a quad core Cherry Trail?) also on 12 V LPSU

THis helps a lot to isolate the noisy Muscle PC from the DAC.

Works for me. Though I may still go with a AMD Ryzen 1950x and drop the GPU from the chain but that monster will always need a PC ATX type PSU. No LPSU in the world can power that monster

 

Everyone is right when they say there is NO audiophile MOBO - those switching DC regulators makes all the Linear PSU questionable. I differ as I can hear the improvements as i do the mods but they are still right. Are you getting the bang for the buck?

 

6. Go Audiophile Music Server - there are so many choices; just scan the Music Server pages on CA. But budget wise you can expect 6000/8000USD and much higher. Most cannot do DSD512 mainly DSD256 but if that is good enough for you maybe.

 

To summarise, your music replay style drives the hardware choices. That is how I see it.

Enjoy the music

Kelvin

[the_doc735]

24 minutes ago, kelvinwsy said:

The way I see it is

1. Do you need upsampling say even to DSD512 - or you let the DAC do that job

This will determine whether you go with a High Power PC (i6700k/7700k/or even AMD1920/1950x) or a low wattage one (eg SuperMicro X10SBA) that quite a few on CA are using. Many on CA swear by Native 44.1/48khz or FLAC format.

2. The above determines whether what sort of Power Supply Unit you need. I have tried the HDPlex 400 watt LPSU - was not powerful enough to drive the GPU on my i6700k - Of course i could have used a dual PSU approach (HDPlex on the Mobo and a Switching ATX PSU or other to drive the GPU) but decided against this.

3. The low wattage PC approach uses 12v or at most 19v DC / 5v power = Low current - Very easy to do with Cheapo Chinese LPSU or even some on CA are doing the 3045 High Current Regulator downstream of a 13.5/15v energizing power unit

4. Or you could do the standard ATX PSU but do mods(LOTS of it). Use a PC ATX PSU like i do (Corsair unit ) You have the Seasonic on your list from what you post.) Add lots of filtering mods.

I use capacitor in line special Corsair Type 4 cables, Elfidelity DRAM filters. Fan Filters for Case and CPU Fans, SOTM II filter for my OSU SSD (Intel X-25E Sata II SSD), Elfidelity SATA III filter for my HDD (Music files) and PCie plug in Power Filters. Good for sub-10 mV ripple but cannot claim any records. Add 5 V and 12 V LPSU for my OS SSD and HDD, Audiophile USB PCie Card. 

5. Go 2 PC method - HQPlayer running on i6700k Main PC via ethernet to a Net Audio Appliance (NAA) fanless minipc (a quad core Cherry Trail?) also on 12 V LPSU

THis helps a lot to isolate the noisy Muscle PC from the DAC.

Works for me. Though I may still go with a AMD Ryzen 1950x and drop the GPU from the chain but that monster will always need a PC ATX type PSU. No LPSU in the world can power that monster

 

Everyone is right when they say there is NO audiophile MOBO - those switching DC regulators makes all the Linear PSU questionable. I differ as I can hear the improvements as i do the mods but they are still right. Are you getting the bang for the buck?

 

6. Go Audiophile Music Server - there are so many choices; just scan the Music Server pages on CA. But budget wise you can expect 6000/8000USD and much higher. Most cannot do DSD512 mainly DSD256 but if that is good enough for you maybe.

 

To summarise, your music replay style drives the hardware choices. That is how I see it.

Enjoy the music

Kelvin

thank you for your extensive communication, you have clearly put a lot of thought into it! This is what I have:

 

Asus (based) desktop PC:

 

Asus ROG strix z270g Intel lga 1151 +

Intel® HD Integrated Graphics 630. +

Intel Core i5-7500T 2.70GHz Quad Processor SR337 7th gen, socket 1151 35W CPU. +

Asus (SDRW-08U1MT) Ultra Slim DVD Re-Writer (with M-Disc). +

Pink Faun i2s Bridge PCI-e (expansion/riser) Card. +

Samsung 250GB 960 M.2 (2280) Evo PCIe 3.0 (x4) NVMe 3D V-NAND SSD MZ-V6E250BW (x2). +

Patriot Viper 4 16GB Dual Ch. DDR4 3000MHz PC4-24000 DIMM PV416G300C6K. +

Seasonic Prime Ultra ’80+’ Titanium 650 Watt ATX M-PSU +

Streacom st-fc9b-opt-alpha PC Fanless Chassis.

 

Cheers!

[kelvinwsy]

You are already 1 up using the Streacom Fanless chassis. No way for the K series of the 6700 cpu. But i added a fan controller and fan speed resistors on the PC case and CPU fan - sort of cut the fan max speed down to half. There are 'expert views' that PC fans dont cause any audible problems if speed remains constant (of course there are electrical steady noise levels to filter but I think I got that covered as best as I could) but it is the Pulse WIdth Modulation controls that speeds up and down the fan that causes the worse power pulses and ripple feeding back into the PC power system esp on the Mobo. So adding 2 additional externally powered fans and cutting back the case and CPU fans have helped to reduce the 'digital' glare in my 6700K PC set up. When I shut down the 6700k server (I run win server 2016 Core with Audiophile Optimizer) the CPU and Case fans SHUT DOWN AT ONCE. 

Before they run and run spinning at max speed for about 1 minute. Go figure out whether it is the Win 10 Pro to Win Server 2016 or the Fan mods that made the difference. Quieter, Sweeter Deep Sound Stage etc etc are the audible improvements.

May still go with a AMD 1950X Hqplayer PC but trying to figure out how to have 3 power supplies to drive that monster. Using a fanless passive cooled 3 MB Graphics GT 1050 to do the video (1950x have no internal graphics unlike the intel cpus) gives me the following

1. A 180 watt lower ripple ATX PSU to drive the 1950x CPU - no linear psu can do that at reseanable cost

2. A linear PSU to drive the MOBO - I need about 100 watts to be safe but in 3 voltages - so waiting for Larry of HDPlex to do his LT 3045 low ripple Linear PSU.

3. Separate PSU's for OS SSD. HDD, etc - this I am already doing.

Hook everything up to 1 or 2 Add2Psu PCB to do auto start and power down linkage and I am ready to go. 

Just research the Innous Statement Music ServerMk II - this I think is 6-7k USD and goes all the way to 14k USD. THey just launched the Mk III> Or the Pink Faun 216 Streamer top model (10-12k EURO - can play DSD 512 using embedded Linux version of HQ Player).

Happy Listening.

[the_doc735]

12 hours ago, kelvinwsy said:

You are already 1 up using the Streacom Fanless chassis. No way for the K series of the 6700 cpu. But i added a fan controller and fan speed resistors on the PC case and CPU fan - sort of cut the fan max speed down to half. There are 'expert views' that PC fans dont cause any audible problems if speed remains constant (of course there are electrical steady noise levels to filter but I think I got that covered as best as I could) but it is the Pulse WIdth Modulation controls that speeds up and down the fan that causes the worse power pulses and ripple feeding back into the PC power system esp on the Mobo. So adding 2 additional externally powered fans and cutting back the case and CPU fans have helped to reduce the 'digital' glare in my 6700K PC set up. When I shut down the 6700k server (I run win server 2016 Core with Audiophile Optimizer) the CPU and Case fans SHUT DOWN AT ONCE. 

Before they run and run spinning at max speed for about 1 minute. Go figure out whether it is the Win 10 Pro to Win Server 2016 or the Fan mods that made the difference. Quieter, Sweeter Deep Sound Stage etc etc are the audible improvements.

May still go with a AMD 1950X Hqplayer PC but trying to figure out how to have 3 power supplies to drive that monster. Using a fanless passive cooled 3 MB Graphics GT 1050 to do the video (1950x have no internal graphics unlike the intel cpus) gives me the following

1. A 180 watt lower ripple ATX PSU to drive the 1950x CPU - no linear psu can do that at reseanable cost

2. A linear PSU to drive the MOBO - I need about 100 watts to be safe but in 3 voltages - so waiting for Larry of HDPlex to do his LT 3045 low ripple Linear PSU.

3. Separate PSU's for OS SSD. HDD, etc - this I am already doing.

Hook everything up to 1 or 2 Add2Psu PCB to do auto start and power down linkage and I am ready to go. 

Just research the Innous Statement Music ServerMk II - this I think is 6-7k USD and goes all the way to 14k USD. THey just launched the Mk III> Or the Pink Faun 216 Streamer top model (10-12k EURO - can play DSD 512 using embedded Linux version of HQ Player).

Happy Listening.

many thanks - much to think about here. I don't intend to go back to fans though!

[the_doc735]

can't the ATX mainboard weak audio links be replaced with something more suitable? Or is the layout inherently suspect?

[ElviaCaprice]

You don't need all that mobo/CPU for bit perfect streaming.   Small as mobo as possible, preferable DC and SOC (embedded mobo is more than enough for audio and video).  Use a good LPSU to power it.  Upgrade the clocking with a SOtM clocking board via SOtM.      Good clocking and power can alleviate the commercial  mobo inefficiencies.

 

 

 

[sandyk]

Kelvinwsy

 Some aftermarket fans also come with self adhesive thermistors which should give a smooth control of the fan speed .

[the_doc735]

1 hour ago, ElviaCaprice said:

You don't need all that mobo/CPU for bit perfect streaming.   Small as mobo as possible, preferable DC and SOC (embedded mobo is more than enough for audio and video).  Use a good LPSU to power it.  Upgrade the clocking with a SOtM clocking board via SOtM.      Good clocking and power can alleviate the commercial  mobo inefficiencies.

 

 

 

do you have any links for LPSU and SOtM clock?

So far I have had no luck tracking down a suitable LPSU, doesn't seem to be any on the market right now?

cheers!

[the_doc735]

what needs to be modified on here please?

[ElviaCaprice]

8 minutes ago, the_doc735 said:

do you have any links for LPSU and SOtM clock?

So far I have had no luck tracking down a suitable LPSU, doesn't seem to be any on the market right now?

cheers!

There are few options for a LPSU to power a power hungry mobo.  The expense and compromise, in my opinion, are not worth it.  As opposed to starting over with a low power embedded DC mobo.  

For more info, I highly recommend the following thread index for answers.

 

[ElviaCaprice]

12 minutes ago, the_doc735 said:

what needs to be modified on here please?

What do you hope to gain from that mobo over a smaller low power one?  sCLK EX clocking board, 4 clocks can be replaced.  System clock, LAN (if you stream through it), USB (If you use an attached HDD), clock on choice of PCIe card.

[the_doc735]

37 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

What do you hope to gain from that mobo over a smaller low power one?  sCLK EX clocking board, 4 clocks can be replaced.  System clock, LAN (if you stream through it), USB (If you use an attached HDD), clock on choice of PCIe card.

All my life I have built standard PC's with full size ATX mobo's, cases and power supplies. However, this is the first time I have built an audio PC. I chose the micro atx board for its compactness and size. Since then a few people have said that a mini ITX, nano itx, pico itx is even more appropriate for audio streamer purposes. However, mini ITX seems to be the smallest that would take my i2s PCI-e expansion card, but I don't know if there are any that support 2 NVMe M.2. SSD's? Please see my specs. above,to determine if there would be a suitable mini-ITX? If not, I know the micro-ATX does support my spec! I am only just learning about tiny computers, NUC's and stuff like that, so I make no apology for learning by my mistakes. If there is a suitable smaller mobo than the micro-ATX I already have, I would be grateful to know please? It would need to support:

Intel Core i5-7500T 2.70GHz Quad Processor SR337 7th gen, socket 1151 35W CPU. +

Asus (SDRW-08U1MT) Ultra Slim DVD Re-Writer (with M-Disc). +

Pink Faun i2s Bridge PCI-e (expansion/riser) Card. +

Samsung 250GB 960 M.2 (2280) Evo PCIe 3.0 (x4) NVMe 3D V-NAND SSD MZ-V6E250BW (x2). +

Patriot Viper 4 16GB Dual Ch. DDR4 3000MHz PC4-24000 DIMM PV416G300C6K

...I can't find a smaller one to support this spec. Can you?

 

"sCLK EX clocking board" what?

system clock - yes

USB clock - yes

OCXO clock for i2s PCI-e card - yes

LAN - no

 

Cheers!

[the_doc735]

1 hour ago, ElviaCaprice said:

There are few options for a LPSU to power a power hungry mobo.  The expense and compromise, in my opinion, are not worth it.  As opposed to starting over with a low power embedded DC mobo.  

For more info, I highly recommend the following thread index for answers.

 

many thanks for your opinion. I will certainly check out the link, cheers!

[the_doc735]

my mobo has this:

 

A dedicated base-clock generator designed for 7th Generation Intel© processors allows overclocked base base-clock frequencies up to or beyond 425MHz*. This custom solution works in tandem with the ASUS TurboV processing unit to enhance voltage and base-clock overclocking control, — providing an exciting new way to boost performance to extreme heights.

 

Asus Z270G ROG - Advantages of PRO Clock:

1. ASUS PRO Clock technology offers enthusiasts a wide range of frequency overclocking options, to maximize the parameters you can play with.

2. One-step BCLK boost allows PRO Clock to instantly shift frequencies and minimize reboots when adjusting the bit clock frequency.

3. Having ultra-low jitter means high stability even under extreme conditions.

4. Since higher clock frequencies may be accompanied with lower clock margins, PRO Clock technology allows you more flexibility and control with adjustable clock amplitude and clock slew rate.  Ultimately, superior stability is achieved even while you turbo-charge base-clock (BCLK) frequencies.

[audiventory]

On 7/18/2018 at 10:44 AM, kelvinwsy said:

Do you need upsampling say even to DSD512 - or you let the DAC do that job

This will determine whether you go with a High Power PC (i6700k/7700k/or even AMD1920/1950x) or a low wattage one (eg SuperMicro X10SBA) that quite a few on CA are using.

 

Or use offline conversion and save electrical energy and nature.

[zackthedog]

I agree with ElviaCaprice, for your purposes I don't think you don't need all that.  I don't know if this helps, but I use an ASRock J3160itx-dc ($125) board with a SOtM USB PCIe card.  It's in a $50 case with a vertical expansion slot and a full-size ASUS DVD-ROM.  Runs W10.  Probably consumes 35W at the most.  My power supply is the HDPlex 200W, running the SSD, USB card and motherboard off the 5, 9 and 12v rails.  You could use a different LPS, there are better ones than the HDPlex.

 

I don't know if this MB will accomodate clocking boards, ElviaCaprice would know more about that.  And I don't know if you're doing heavy-duty upsampling.  But if all you want is CD and file playback you certainly don't need a fan-cooled rig, IMO.

[the_doc735]

23 minutes ago, zackthedog said:

I agree with ElviaCaprice, for your purposes I don't think you don't need all that.  I don't know if this helps, but I use an ASRock J3160itx-dc ($125) board with a SOtM USB PCIe card.  It's in a $50 case with a vertical expansion slot and a full-size ASUS DVD-ROM.  Runs W10.  Probably consumes 35W at the most.  My power supply is the HDPlex 200W, running the SSD, USB card and motherboard off the 5, 9 and 12v rails.  You could use a different LPS, there are better ones than the HDPlex.

 

I don't know if this MB will accomodate clocking boards, ElviaCaprice would know more about that.  And I don't know if you're doing heavy-duty upsampling.  But if all you want is CD and file playback you certainly don't need a fan-cooled rig, IMO.

I Have quite similar set up to yours:

 

Asus ROG strix z270g Intel lga 1151 with Intel® HD Integrated Graphics 630. [micro ATX] +

Intel Core i5-7500'T' 2.70GHz Quad Processor SR337 7th gen, socket 1151 [ONLY 35W] CPU. +

Asus (SDRW-08U1MT) Ultra Slim DVD Re-Writer (with M-Disc). +

Pink Faun i2s Bridge PCI-e (expansion/riser) Card. + [for sound]

Samsung 250GB 960 M.2 (2280) Evo PCIe 3.0 (x4) NVMe 3D V-NAND SSD MZ-V6E250BW (x2). +

Patriot Viper 4 16GB Dual Ch. DDR4 3000MHz PC4-24000 DIMM PV416G300C6K. +

Streacom st-fc9b-opt-alpha PC Fanless Chassis.

 

i.e.

I have 

a mainboard

CPU

CD play

PCI-e card for sound

SSD

memory

Chassis (case)

 

the HDPlex 200W is out of stock at the moment. I was considering that option together with the HDPLEX 400W Hi-Fi DC-ATX Power Supply for my MOBO.

 

I don't have fans now or discreet graphics card.

 

B.T.W. how are you connecting the HDPlex 200W to the 24 pin MOBO connector on your ASRock J3160-itx?

[the_doc735]

does anyone know the total wattage of this setup please?

 

Asus ROG strix z270g Intel lga 1151 with Intel® HD Integrated Graphics 630. [micro ATX] +

Intel Core i5-7500'T' 2.70GHz Quad Processor SR337 7th gen, socket 1151 [ONLY 35W TDP] CPU. +

Asus (SDRW-08U1MT) Ultra Slim DVD Re-Writer (with M-Disc). +

Pink Faun i2s Bridge PCI-e (expansion/riser) Card. + [for sound]

Samsung 250GB 960 M.2 (2280) Evo PCIe 3.0 (x4) NVMe 3D V-NAND SSD MZ-V6E250BW (x2). +

Patriot Viper 4 16GB Dual Ch. DDR4 3000MHz PC4-24000 DIMM PV416G300C6K. +

Streacom st-fc9b-opt-alpha PC Fanless Chassis.

[zackthedog]

7 hours ago, the_doc735 said:

I Have quite similar set up to yours:

 

Asus ROG strix z270g Intel lga 1151 with Intel® HD Integrated Graphics 630. [micro ATX] +

Intel Core i5-7500'T' 2.70GHz Quad Processor SR337 7th gen, socket 1151 [ONLY 35W] CPU. +

Asus (SDRW-08U1MT) Ultra Slim DVD Re-Writer (with M-Disc). +

Pink Faun i2s Bridge PCI-e (expansion/riser) Card. + [for sound]

Samsung 250GB 960 M.2 (2280) Evo PCIe 3.0 (x4) NVMe 3D V-NAND SSD MZ-V6E250BW (x2). +

Patriot Viper 4 16GB Dual Ch. DDR4 3000MHz PC4-24000 DIMM PV416G300C6K. +

Streacom st-fc9b-opt-alpha PC Fanless Chassis.

 

i.e.

I have 

a mainboard

CPU

CD play

PCI-e card for sound

SSD

memory

Chassis (case)

 

the HDPlex 200W is out of stock at the moment. I was considering that option together with the HDPLEX 400W Hi-Fi DC-ATX Power Supply for my MOBO.

 

I don't have fans now or discreet graphics card.

 

B.T.W. how are you connecting the HDPlex 200W to the 24 pin MOBO connector on your ASRock J3160-itx?

 

The ASRock J3160itx-dc version has direct DC input from a barrel plug, so there's no need for ATX input.  I think what EC and I are suggesting is that your current MB/CPU combo is overkill for what you want to do, and creating complications.  A lower-powered, fanless DC-input Celeron board like the ASRock with a simple LPS and clocking board might get you the biggest improvement.  

 

You could ditch it all and buy a player/streamer, like an Innuos Zenith (they start at $1000 and go up to $6000, I think).  They're basically a custom version of what you have already. ?  I've never heard one so I can't say what sort of improvement it would be.  You could also look at a Marantz ND8006, which fits your needs exactly (CD and hi-res USB or network audio playback)!

[Doak]

Just answer this question:

Do I wish to spend my time dicking around with a computer or would I rather spend my time listening to music?

[audiventory]

4 hours ago, Doak said:

would I rather spend my time listening to music?

 

I more like to spent my time for playing music

[the_doc735]

14 hours ago, zackthedog said:

 

The ASRock J3160itx-dc version has direct DC input from a barrel plug, so there's no need for ATX input.  I think what EC and I are suggesting is that your current MB/CPU combo is overkill for what you want to do, and creating complications.  A lower-powered, fanless DC-input Celeron board like the ASRock with a simple LPS and clocking board might get you the biggest improvement.  

 

You could ditch it all and buy a player/streamer, like an Innuos Zenith (they start at $1000 and go up to $6000, I think).  They're basically a custom version of what you have already. ?  I've never heard one so I can't say what sort of improvement it would be.  You could also look at a Marantz ND8006, which fits your needs exactly (CD and hi-res USB or network audio playback)!

 

...thanks for the suggestions, however I don't want to buy a device with features that I will never use llike streaming Spotify etc  etc. I don't listen to any form of radio however that is delivered to my home. I need to play back files on memeory sticks and CD's. I would therefore see the Marantz and Zenith as providing services, build labour charges and "THE NAME" (badge) as unnecessary investments.

Of course, with your ASRock J3160itx-dc, you still have a standard PC mobo with all of its inherent weaknesses (just like me). i.e. contributors & posters on threads have pointed out about commercial mainboards being built down to the lowest possible price point for the ordinary domestic market, nothing specialised, low quality clocks & onboard switching technology. The only way around that is to get rid of (ditch) the commercial PC mobo altogether and have a specialised purpose built audiophile mainboard instead, that would have all the audio grade components supplied at the point of manufacture.

Of course, external LPSU's can help 'lift' the output performance of a standard commercial board like ASRock, gigabyte, Asus etc etc. It remains the case that "a chain is only as stong as its weakest link", how far are you prepared to take 'the build', money no object? In my own personal case, in the great Hi-Fi scheme of things, I would say that overall I have a fairly modest budget to work with and certainly can't afford to sell practically new parts 'on a whim', whenever I feel like it for usually half price or even less! That is why I would prefer to keep the Asus Z270G micro ATX board for now and not sell it on for a ridiculously low price, just so that I can then buy yet another brand new mini-itx board at full retail price.

[the_doc735]

14 hours ago, Doak said:

Just answer this question:

Do I wish to spend my time dicking around with a computer or would I rather spend my time listening to music?

Your question doesn't have anything to do with my thread question: "dedicated player or pc?".

[the_doc735]

10 hours ago, audiventory said:

 

I more like to spent my time for playing music

playing music? - guitar, bass, keyboards etc?

 

or

 

did you mean listening to music?