How much does it cost to be an audiophile?

[gmgraves]

22 hours ago, Nordkapp said:

I found this article today and had a good time reading it. Just thought I'd share it. Thoughts? Sadly, i can relate.

https://priceonomics.com/speakers/

I have to disagree with the conclusion of that article. I have friends who have fine sounding systems, systems that are accurate (as far as they go), musical, and damn fine to listen too, and which, through various different ploys, don't cost a lot. Take my friend Dave, for instance. His system, though modest, is quite excellent sounding. Here's what it consists of: A Mac Mini with all his music ripped to it - @$600. A Schiit Modi Multi-bit DAC - $250, a Yaqin MC100-B dual mono "integrated" tube amp (100WPC) - $800, a pair of Magnapan MG-Point Seven speakers - $1500. Total? $3100. Now tell me that's the fortune the article talks about? Another acquaintance of mine, named Jim has a system made completely of used equipment. He has an Van Alstine Solid-State preamp, my old Denon POA6600A (Threshold circuit) mono blocks, and a pair of Infinity Kappa 7.1s, His front end is a JVC Direct Drive turntable (QL-10 the one with the round plinth and the LED speed indicator), a classic SME 3009 Arm and an Audio Technica AT-160 cartridge. For a CD player he has a Denon DVD-758 which will play just about everything short of Blu-Ray, including SACD and sounds damn good doing it. All used, and less than $3K! Right now he's refurbishing an old Thorens TD124 which will replace the JVC QL-10, but He'll keep the SME arm (don't blame him). If you want good sound and are willing to hunt down the components you want on Craigslist, E-Bay, the Hi-Fi shops and the newspaper want ads, You can put together a fine sounding system for very little money.  

[gmgraves]

On 5/28/2018 at 1:12 AM, semente said:

Are you assuming that all live music is blasting away over 6 dozen PA speakers?

It can be hard to get away from it these days. I can't tell you how many classical concert performances that I've walked out of because I've seen stacks of "sound reinforcement" speakers piled up on either side of the stage!. I won't hesitate to ask for my money back when I find that SR will be used at a concert. I always use the same argument, and for me, it's key. "I have better speakers than these at home. If I wanted to listen to speakers this evening, I would have cued-up a high-resolution recording of the very music this ensemble is going to play tonight and stayed home. I come to live concerts to hear the sound of live instruments playing great music. I do not attend them to listen to a Public Address System! If you are going to us that P.A., I want my money back!" I usually get it too! 

[gmgraves]

12 hours ago, GUTB said:

 

The problem is the poor quality of Emotiva sound. 

I have auditioned and reviewed a number of pieces of Emotiva gear. Your dislike of the equipment is very much of a prejudice (based on the equipment's low price, perhaps). I found it to be more than excellent value for money spent. It might not compete sonically with Nelson Pass's equipment, or Audio Research, but it's more than a match for a lot of much more more expensive gear. And who would expect a $300 preamp to compete with a $3000 (much less a $30,000) preamp. The stuff is well made (especially for the price) using decent quality components, and I found the combination of the PT-100 preamp (built-in phono, built-in 24/192 DAC, built-in FM tuner) for $300 and the A-300 power amp (150 WRMS/channel) at $400 to be an incredible bargain, a bargain that sounds excellent - giving better than 90% of the performance of Krell, or any other comparable gear that you can name. Most customers would be thrilled with the combo. You know, most people think that high-end sound costs waaaayyyy too much. Here is a breath of fresh air that says that quality audio doesn't need to cost an an arm and a leg. So what does GUTB, the cost snob, say about it? It has "poor sound quality". I'd be willing to bet GUTB money that in a double-blind tests he couldn't pick out an Emotiva preamp/amp setup from a similar Parasound setup or a Bryston setup, or any other mid-level high-end amp/preamp combo. 

[gmgraves]

14 hours ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

I often wonder from what authority you make these pronouncements...

 

"An audiophile is a person who is enthusiastic about high-fidelity sound reproduction. Audiophile values may be applied at all stages of music reproduction: the initial audio recording, the production process, and the playback, which is usually in a home setting."

I dont see anything about minimum monetary outlay required there...

 

The thing about GUTB is that he has a very limited outlook on what an "audiophile" actually is. To him, you can't be an audiophile until you "prove yourself" by spending $200K+ on speakers, $40K or more on a preamp ditto for a power amp, and $20K+ for a disc player and a $100K for a record deck, arm and cartridge. He doesn't seem to be able to take into account that most people have mortgages, car payments, and a family of support. Most people don't have that kind of money to spend on audio equipment (or any other hobby, for that matter). 

Actually, in my experience, the only people I've ever come across who own that level of equipment aren't audiophiles at all. They are nuvo-riche entrepreneurs who, having built their mac-mansions in the hills above Silicon Valley, want to impress their peers with how much everything costs. They never play their stereo system except to show it off, and most of them have but a couple of rock-albums from the 1970s to play on it. If this is GUTB's idea of an audiophile, then, my friends, thank your lucky stars that you don't make the grade!

[gmgraves]

1 hour ago, Nordkapp said:

This is ridiculous George. You are actually going on record saying that Emotiva is no different sonically than Parasound/Bryston?  My God. Are those JC1 Parasound monos garbage too? 

Not only am I not going on record saying it. I didn't say it. I said that GUTB couldn't tell one setup from the other in a DBT. I didn't say that they sounded the same, nor did I infer it.  

[gmgraves]

1 hour ago, Nordkapp said:

Emotiva is basically equivalent to Pioneer. Not exactly high end. 

But even Pioneer is not as bad as GUTB paints it either. I've lived with an Emotiva system for several weeks, I know how it performs. Many audio snobs would be extremely surprised to find out that the gap between what we used to call mid-fi and high-end equipment has narrowed considerably in the last few years. Especially when it comes to amplifier circuits. 

[gmgraves]

2 minutes ago, mansr said:

Throw in a clock radio too, just for fun.

Gotcha!

[gmgraves]

56 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

trust your ears vs trust your measurements. IMO each has their place.

Actually they are both necessary in my estimation. Obviously, the final arbiter is one's ears. If it doesn't sound right, all the great measurements in the world won't amount to a hill of beans. But the truth is that if a piece of equipment measures right, it would be damn difficult for it not to sound right. Where the measurements fall down is when you get two similar pieces of equipment and even though the measured differences between them are trivial, one sounds slightly better than the other, and there is, on paper, no apparent reason for it. That's the slippery slope where one's audible judgement needs to be tempered with technical knowledge. When two devices under test measure exactly the same and yet they sound different, then one has to entertain the possibility that there is something else going on. Like I said, measurement, technical knowledge, and one's listening abilities are all required to put together a truly competent audio system (in my estimation) or, you could just throw money at the problem. You know, the GUTB method. That works too....  

[gmgraves]

11 minutes ago, Nordkapp said:

Actually, Emotiva is more akin to old Panasonic stuff. Crap.

Now you sound like GUTB. I'd say that it sounds more like the high-end Marantz SS stuff than the old Panasonic stuff. 

[gmgraves]

1 minute ago, mav52 said:

He didn't say that or assume that.   he said " might not compete sonically "

 

  I'm not speaking for George but I think He is saying Gut cound't pick the difference between them.

Precisely! 

[gmgraves]

17 hours ago, Nordkapp said:

At least the Marantz stuff is built better. For the budding audio enthusiast on an incredibly short budget, then fine-go buy all the Emotiva you want. 

My only point. It will get a budding audiophile's toes wet and as he/she can afford it, they will upgrade. The yellow brick road has to start somewhere!

[gmgraves]

17 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

 Amusing, but has anyone here actually heard GUTB's system, or verified that he has no better audio discerning properties than the majority of those, usually from the hard line Objective side,  who love to take the piss out of him ?

 Perhaps he hasn't , but he does at least go to Audio Shows, and gets to hear a greater variety of equipment than somebody who rarely gets to hear recent Audio products.

 Yes, I do agree that he leaves himself wide open to attacks from the "Rat Pack"

We're really just funning him (or at least I am). Anyone who makes the kind of outrageous statements that GUTB does is going to be kidded. That's really all there is to it. When I make outrageous statements, I expect to be kidded too, don't you? 

[gmgraves]

16 hours ago, GUTB said:

Well, I have a duty to my fans...

Indeed you do!

[gmgraves]

6 hours ago, mansr said:

I don't understand the constant talk about upgrade paths and what to get next. Is it not permitted to simply buy a competent system one can afford and be happy with it (for the time being)?

Seems like a contradiction to me, mansr. I assume that budding audiophiles (both of them) do just what you suggest. They purchase the most competent system that they can afford and are generally happy with it for a while. But as they gain listening experience, start reading the magazines and start going to shows, they begin to see (hear?) the shortcomings of their current systems and start to look for ways to improve the sound they are getting. Buy a new DAC, a new amp, perhaps better speakers, etc. are the pathways to a better system, so they start to upgrade. It's a natural progression for this hobby. My first system was modest, even by that days' standard, but I kept upgrading it By the time I was at my first real job out of college, I had replaced everything and I never looked back. I do now of course. There are things I had that I would give my eye-teeth to have again (my Audio Empire 498 Troubadour turntable, for instance or that tank of a three-motor Pioneer cassette recorder which I sold when I bought the Aiwa F9000 which, while giving superior performance, wasn't as well made and died after a few years) but mostly every move was a sonic upgrade.  

[gmgraves]

4 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

 

Yes, he is mostly just a source of amusement here.

 

BUT, several times a new person has been given bad advice by GUTB - that can waste a neophyte's time, or money, or turn them off to the hobby entirely.

That is also a problem with a lot of the stuff that gets said here and other forums. I used to think that by countering what was clearly bad advice I could "save neophytes from such a fate". But I found out that you can't do that without stepping on the almost religious belief systems of other posters. So I stopped trying to save folks from themselves. That doesn't mean that I've changed my mind about certain issues, and I will still voice them, but that's because a little controversy is fun!

[gmgraves]

4 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

Yes. You keep making blanket outrageous statements about cables that have nothing to do with Microwave, UHF or whatever .

Yeah, I do don't I? Don't you know that unless your interconnects can pass a perfect square wave at a frequency of at least 1 Ghz, they're no good! ?

[gmgraves]

3 minutes ago, davide256 said:

Agree. Although some remind me more of OCD  when they can't respect a difference of opinion.

That's a slippery slope. For instance, if one were to say that transistors sound better than tubes, that's an opinion and there's plenty of room to argue the point with evidence on both sides to support it. On the other hand, if one were to assert that the earth is flat, that's just wrong. But believe it or not there are people who still believe that the earth is flat, and if you tell them they're wrong, they will argue with you vehemently by pointing out observations that have drawn the wrong conclusions and by their faith in the facts that their eyes perceive a flat earth and that they don't fall off of a round one. 

[gmgraves]

9 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

I don't think there is anything wrong with the equipment being part of the hobby. I believe that there is too much focus on those audiophiles that  focus more on the equipment than the music. It is like that is the only kind of audiophile and we are reinventing the definition. Everyone on this forum could be defined as "audiophile".

Not only do I agree, but I don't see anything wrong with those audiophiles whose main focus is the equipment.

 

[gmgraves]

5 minutes ago, sandyk said:

Do you have a 1GHZ Square Wave Generator that I can borrow to try this ? 

Yep but it weighs 60 pounds and you have to pay the shipping to OZ, BOTH WAYS!

[gmgraves]

Just now, mansr said:

If the goal is sound reproduction with good fidelity, the rate of component replacement should be decreasing over time. For some, however, it seems that the process of trying out new gear has taken over and come to dominate the original objective of enjoying music. This turns into a way of life, and in some cases the afflicted even start belittling those who are not perpetually looking for the next replacement.

Certainly. There is a section of the audiophile community to whom the equipment is the focus. There is also a type of personality that believes that the road to happiness is paved with new acquisitions. Audiophiles with that personality (it's a common personality trait) are continually upgrading. Have you never heard a woman say that shopping for new clothes makes her happy? Guys don't like to shop, per se, but their version of this trait is to be always purchasing some new doo-dad for whatever hobby they're into. The act of acquiring something new releases endorphins making the buyer feel good. Unfortunately it wears off soon and the desire to do it again raises it's expensive head!

[gmgraves]

20 hours ago, sandyk said:

Then how about I send you a bunch of cables to test ? 

Sure, go ahead. Send me all the cables you want to. Although, I can tell you without all the trouble that none of them will pass anything akin to a square wave at 1 GHz! Not even Nordost Valhalla at >US$2000 for a one meter pair! ? 

[gmgraves]

20 hours ago, mansr said:

I can comprehend such explanations for the behaviour. At the same time, I think it's unfortunate that this has become a defining trait of audiophiles. GUTB is a caricature of an audiophile, yet the attitudes he represents have poisoned the marketplace, both by driving up prices on quality equipment and by legitimising all manner of snake oil to the point that it's difficult to find a manufacturer or vendor who isn't complicit in the grand scam, even if not actively participating in it.

I can't argue with that sentiment in any way, mansr. You are quite correct. The GUTBs of this world coupled with the nuveau riche who just want to show off to their peers how much their trophy wives/trophy cars/trophy homes/trophy stereo systems cost. There are lots of them, and very few are audiophiles or even like music (beyond what they listened to in high-school and college). I've known a bunch of them. They are anything but audiophiles. They call-up an A/V specialist that I know, and tell him that they want the costliest audio system money can buy and my acquaintance provides it. Once these guys have the costly system installed, they rarely (if ever) play it except to show it off. I have nothing against the rich enjoying their money, were I among them, I'd do many similar things. I'd have a great sports car (a stable of great cars, actually) and I'd have a megabuck stereo system and great room to listen to it in. The difference is that I will have picked every piece of gear in that room for their performance, not because they cost the most. I find the rich dilettante disgusting and I do blame the audio community for pandering to that market instead of focusing on their core clientele, we who will buy audio equipment because it's our passion, not because it cost a small (or a large) fortune!

[gmgraves]

10 hours ago, mansr said:

Some of the expensive stuff does use unusual circuitry too, so it's not entirely implausible that it at least sounds different. The problem I see is that you can't get the supposedly good electronics without paying through your nose for the bling casework

I think a perfect example of that are the MSB Diamond series DACs. They are incredibly expensive and they use ladder DACs (also called R2R, and Multibit DACs) of their own design and executed in discrete components. Then the whole megellah is potted in epoxy and housed in a gold-plated aluminum "brick". I read in an online forum, recently where somebody tested an MSB Diamond V DAC against a Benchmark 3 with the new Analog Devices SabreDac Pro, and found that the Benchmark both measured and sounded better. It seems that all of that "unusual circuitry" buys one (at least in this case) is an astronomical selling price! with today's semiconductor technology, one shouldn't assume that discrete circuitry is better than ICs. It was once true, for sure, but you can't assume that it still is anything other than more expensive. 

[gmgraves]

4 minutes ago, phosphorein said:

 

Indeed! But I do have a couple of coaxes with N connectors that will pass up to 11 GHz.

Yeah, but will it pass a perfect square wave at those frequencies? Sure, you can buy data probes from Tektronix that are "frequency compensated" to pass those kinds of high frequency square waves, but they are more than simple pieces of coax terminated with BNC or N RF connectors.

[gmgraves]

23 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 Not RG59U properly terminated either.

Absolutely not!  But at audio frequencies RG59U is fine. As long as the runs aren't more than a few meters, RG59 (or 58)U will pass a perfect 500KHz square wave. That's more than high enough for audio.