Why!? Please Tell Me Why!

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13 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

I just wish somebody could explain why and how, because it shouldn't, you know. 

 

 

Well its worse because why would any electrically relevant device — if we place an AC power cable into this category — why would it affect every device it plugs into? Each device has its own power supply and surely if power cables impact sound, it would only be with certain supplies?

 

Using a specific example: do power cables affect the sound when plugged into the UpTone LPS-1 supply? @Superdad knows what I’m getting at ?

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31 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

Yes, I am SURE that ESP is causing the differences in power cables that people "hear" when they have a lot of expectation bias.

 

The Princess can certainly hear these differences!

Hmmm ... Great idea ... I’m going to have several princesses over for a listening  session to determine the effect of Absinthe of the sound of power cables ...

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31 minutes ago, GUTB said:

Everyone knows that burn-in of cables is a real effect. Why?

The “Pink Fairy” effect:

 

this is gentian based tincture which starts starts out as a clear orange:

adding water develops the louche:

and it begins to turn pink, and with more water & ice:

 

the “Pink Fairy” has an even stronger effect on young princesses @Ralf11 they need to be gently burnt in so their sound does not become harsh and shrill over time ?

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8 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

Louche ??

 

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=louche&oq=louche&aqs=chrome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

https://www.absinthefever.com/absinthe/ritual

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4 hours ago, marce said:

Then explain it or find some explanation, because many of us can't find any explanation...

 

 

Perhaps you aren’t understanding the subtle explanation then. It has been verified that if you burn in your cables while drinking absinthe, as the “la louche” develops, the sound mellows. It’s chemistry. The cables which are affected are connected to neurons, frequently referred to as axons. The effect is quite real. ?

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1 hour ago, gmgraves said:

Absinthe? Hell, any good bottle of Kentucky bourbon or single-malt scotch will do the same thing!

That would be a far better A/B/X to participate in ?

 

Nonetheless cable sound does change over the course of the listening session ?

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15 minutes ago, marce said:

From North of England will Special Brew do instead of some fancy liqueur...

 

Ah!

 

Technically these are “gins” being botanically flavored and without sugar. The Gin & Tonic in fact contains the bittering  agent “quinine” classically from Cinchona bark, and with this explanation I hope you can better understand ?

 

I find the princesses are more likely to partake in this than ale, and we need the entire sensory experience to fully appreciate the sonic changes!

 

Of course in Northern England you have your own traditions and no doubt “Special Brew” will have its own sonic signature ?

 

There are many things that can effect the sound of a cable beyond the mundane physics of electrons ?

 

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3 hours ago, GUTB said:

Everyone knows burn-in time for cables is needed. Anyone who has tested new cables know this by experiencing the phenomena. 

 

True! The stronger your belief, the stronger the effect. The only people who don’t know this or who haven’t experienced this are non believers. 

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9 hours ago, GUTB said:

I thought directional control of signal cables had to do with the orientation of crystal boundaries formed during the drawing / annaeling process which manufacturers keep track of vs the direction wire comes off the factory spool.

 

There is definitely directional flow in conductors regardless of being AC or DC.

 

??????????

 

My absinthe doesn’t cause these good hallucinations — are you doing magic mushroom infusions?

 

Ok let’s run with this and see where it gets us.

 

Suppose all conductors were in fact diodes? A) How would this change audio signal transmission and how would you measure it? B) How would this change digital signal transmission and how would you measure it? 

 

Where in an audio circuit is flow actually directional over a period of time (ie DC) — be specific — no credit for partial answers.

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1 hour ago, GUTB said:

 

Please let’s stay neurotypical. I stated signals (electrical currents) have a direction. You replied "no". I wondered if you thought electricity was faster than light (instantaneous) and after realizing you said something obviously untrue — apparently for no other reason than to disagree with me — you won’t acknowledge it. 

 

 

This is all a non- sequitor ... 

 

1) What is the difference between a signal and a current? You seem not to understand the difference. 

 

2) Can a current be in the opposite direction to a signal? 

 

3) Do you realize that your statement as written makes no sense?

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12 hours ago, GUTB said:

I thought directional control of signal cables had to do with the orientation of crystal boundaries formed during the drawing / annaeling process which manufacturers keep track of vs the direction wire comes off the factory spool.

 

 

What dies the phrase “directional control of signal cables” mean in terms of common electrical terms? 

 

This phrase doesnt have an obvious meaning. 

 

Quote

 

There is definitely directional flow in conductors regardless of being AC or DC.

 

Current flows in a direction. The magnitude and angle of a “DC” current is constant. The magnitude and angle of an “AC” current varies. This is true by definition. Are you trying to say something else?

 

I think it’s really best to get the very basic physics or current voltage resistance capacitance inductance down cold before you try to delve into semiconductor physics. 

 

That said its its easy to tell a conductor from a semiconductor with fairly basic instruments and measurements.

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1 hour ago, GUTB said:

 

I used used to think electrons just sort of vibrated or hovered in place — in fact they do move (slowly). I’m not trained in these topics, I’m just a neurotypical guy posting on the Internet.

 

What you are posting doesn’t make sense yet time and time again you post claiming that what you believe is considered “basic” or “well accepted” . 

 

Not sure what the repeated claims of “neurotypical”ity are about?

 

Quote

 

A signal is a flow of electricity. There is a direction. Energy jumping across conductor crystal boundaries effects the electrical properties of the conductor. That’s not at all controversial.

 

Here’s your problem : a signal is not just “a flow of electricity” 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal

 

Albeit the transmission of a signal may involve electrical current, there is no defined/fixed relationship between the direction of signal transmission and the direction of current flow.

 

What you are saying indeed is not controversial — it’s just plain wrong.

 

Now diodes affect current flow on a directional basis. It is trivial to construct a circuit which consists of diodes in parallel/series with resistors/capacitors and inductors. It is straightforward to measure the effects on electrical signals. Similarly if you have a cable which you claim to have these properties, you can demonstrate that the cable has similar effects on the same signals. Short of that you are repeating pseudo scientific sounding hogwash 

 

 

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2 hours ago, GUTB said:

 

Neurotypical means the ability to communicate using context and cultural cues to allow generalizations to convey meaningful information. Pedantry is not neurotypical, unless used as a rhetorical device.

 

Based on your poor poor understanding of the difference between signal and flow of electricity, my confidence in your ability to define anything is zero. I’m not being pedantic rather factual. 

 

2 hours ago, GUTB said:

A neurotypical reading of "signal" would be "analogue audio signal over a wire" in this context.

Fine but signal could also be digital 

2 hours ago, GUTB said:

 

An audio signal is a flow of electricity.

 

No no no no no no no no.

 

Im not being obtuse, you simply don’t understand. 

 

2 hours ago, GUTB said:

You’ve probably chosen to be deliberately obtuse over voltage transmission for the purpose of disagreeing with me.

 

No, this is really basic. Really basic. Read Wikipedia or a textbook. Please. If you can’t understand why the direction of signal transmission is not the same as the direction of current flow, I’m afraid there’s no hope for you to understand electronics. 

 

How  can I state this more clearly?

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Beating this horse because as @Ralf11 suggests, I also suspect it illustrates a wider problem than @GUTB understanding of signal transmission, and apropos to this thread because pseudo scientific marketing is used to promote ridiculous audiophile products -- I mean if you want to spend $100,000 on cables because you like their appearance, then fine, but don't because you've been sucked in by marketing prose.

 

A "signal" is information. A signal is directional, information "moves" from one place to another. There is a source of information and a destination and the signal carries the information.

 

There is a field of "information theory" which deals with signals. Indeed the source of the signal expends energy in its transmission, and so in this sense there can be considered an "energy flow" or "entropy gradient" that goes from the source of the signal to the destination. This flow is not directly a flow of electricity, or electrons.

 

An "electrical signal" uses time varying voltages and currents to carry information. There is a difference: an electrical signal uses current flow, they aren't the same. Indeed in a balanced signal their is no net current flow because current in one direction is matched by the opposite current. Nonetheless the source expends energy and the signal is indeed directional.

 

Now of course there are crystalline, semiconductor, doping, junction and other physical properties that do indeed affect directional current flow in electrical circuits, and it is possible that a cable could incorporate such elements but these properties are eminently measurable -- the characteristic curve of any transistor, or diode etc. etc. and short of that some marketing speak which discusses cable directionality based on some special crystalline structure is designed to make to think the cable is "special". There are very good reasons to use balanced signal transmission and now we would need to carefully think about the implications of cable strand asymmetry on balanced cables ... hmmm haven't heard about that, why?

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1 hour ago, mansr said:

should be noted that it need not be the source that expends energy.

 

Good point. Shannon’s concept of “information entropy” not physical entropy

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1 hour ago, Summit said:

 

Why are you saying No no no no no no no no. An audio signal is flow of electricity.

 

An “electrical audio signal” uses current & voltage to represent/convey information — they are not the same.

 

To be specific, a flow is a vector with magnitude and direction. A signal represents a flow of information. The magnitude and direction of a signal is not the same nor in the same units as the magnitude and direction of the electricity used to carry the signal. 

 

An audio signal is not a flow of electricity it uses flows of electricity. 

 

In  the same way that you might use a pen to write a book — the ink is not the book. The book is not strokes of the pen but uses strokes of the pen to convey information.

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Why is this important in simple terms?

 

1: the signal travels from one box to the other

2: the cable connects one box to the other

3: an arrow on the cable may indicate the direction of signal flow 

4: electrical current does not simply flow from one box to the other

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28 minutes ago, Summit said:

 

An audio signal is a flow of electricity!!

 

What do you think the audio signal consist of if not a flows of electricity? Why use a bigger amp to drive insensitive speakers if not because they can output more power, current and voltage?

 

would you ever say that at any point in time the audio signal travels from the speaker to the amp?

 

would you ever say that at any point in time the audio signal travels from the amp to the DAC?

 

Answer yes or no.

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27 minutes ago, Summit said:

 

Not the audio signal. Back-EMF (Electro-Motive Force) yes. A speaker is sending back a lot of electricity because speakers work by pulling and pushing. But it’s not the audio signal it sending back to the amp it is this opposing power.

and that’s the effect of the difference.

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44 minutes ago, GUTB said:

This thread is a good example of “truth by popularity”.

 

You are the one who states: “everyone knows cables have directionality” and “everyone knows that cables get better with burn-in” etc. Or “everyone knows that Class D sucks”

 

This is called argumentum ad populum 

 

Are you able to have an intelligent discussion? Demonstrate your intelligence. 

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36 minutes ago, GUTB said:

The same thing applies to the direction of audio signals down an interconnect cable. The signal flows from the source to a receiver down a cable. The mechanics of energy transmission, potential change, wave propagation, etc, are more complex than that — HOWEVER it remains completely true that audio signals flow in a direction. A source has an amplification circuit that drives a signal across an interconnect cable.

 

Right.

 

(see, I’m not arbitrarily disagreeing with you)

 

My objection was that if the directionality of cables has to do with crystalline structure — this theoretically might affect the movement of electrons ... yet the movement of electrons is not the same as the signal flow. 

 

Speakers are a load in amps — that’s a reasonable statement. 

 

Heres the thing: if cables did have directional impedance, it would cause measurable distortion. Has anyone ever measured such distortion? It’s not like the cable would be better in one direction because in an AC current — audio signals use AC currents — 1/2 each cycle would be one way and the other 1/2 the other way — so my point is that even though the signal is directional, the currents vary back and forth — a directional cable would be a distortion. 

 

In reality cables conduct equally in both directions and these crystal structure / extrusion explanations are likely faulty

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13 hours ago, GUTB said:

 

I'm willing to discuss theory, its just that conspiracy theories about manufacturers and press fooling audiophiles are hard to tackle.

 

As long as manufacturers and press stick to subjective impressions there is a lot of latitude in the prose descriptions than are reasonable. Peoples opinions are their opinions. People hear what they hear and like what they like. 

 

When writing uses  technical language then it becomes subject to technical criticisms. Kind of like when I tried to help my teenage daughter with her math homework — she’s a great writer and debater — but math is math. She tried to argue with me about the answers. Similarly in physics, there are definitions and equations. Statements that you might read as sounding very reasonable become totally ridiculous if the rules of Physics are employed. You know the Maxwells equations and all the other equations. SPICE and the other modeling software etc.

 

No conspiracy theories.