Pre-emphasis?

[89reksal]

I'm wondering how people are dealing with ripping cd's that have pre-emphasis (boosting the signal (especially the higher frequencies) in the recording before it was put onto CD, and embedding flags in the disc's subcode to tell a CD player to apply de-emphasis on playback.).  http://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php?title=Pre-emphasis

 

I've always used dBpoweramp for ripping cd's and always assumed that's all I needed to produce a proper rip. Apparently dBpoweramp does not process pre-emphasis flags which means rips produced from cd's that originally had pre-emphasis will be played back without the de-emphasis step which would restore the original frequency response meant for the recording. Basically this means that any cd rips from cd's that have pre-emphasis added, without the de-emphasis step performed somehow, will be played back with pre-emphasis boost. 

 

I discovered my cd of Deep Purple "Machine Head" has pre-emphasis. I ripped this years ago with no knowledge of pre-emphasis. I used SoX to apply de-emphasis as described in this thread:

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/ripping-cds-with-pre-emphasis-properly.662462/

 

The results were quite interesting to me. Just listening to "Smoke On The Water" with pre-emphasis only compared to the version with de-emphasis applied, it's very easy to hear the added high frequency content in the pre-emphasis only version. The de-emphasised version sounds much "smoother". As an aside, I don't know if I'm just more used to the uncorrected version but I think I preferred the pre-emphasis only version sonically. Here's a screenshot from Audacity with the pre-emphasis only version on top, de-emphasis version on bottom.:

 

 

I'd say that's a significant difference. Another change was in dynamic range. The pre-emphasis only version has DR: 15 while the de-emphasised version DR: 13. Makes me wonder how many DR values in the Dynamic Range database a lot of us use for reference are based on rips that haven't had de-emphasis applied.

 

Here's a screenshot of the pre-emphasis only version from Musicscope:

 

 

 

 

Here's the de-emphasised :

 

 

Again, significant differences in my opinion. From  this small sample size of one track only, it seems pretty obvious that unless pre-emphasis/de-emphasis is handled correctly during the rip and playback process, then we are not hearing "accurate" reproduction of our music. This may or may not be a big issue for listeners but I would think most on this site would prefer to be listening to correctly de-emphasised rip. I can see a lot of work in my future tracking down my rips that haven't had pre-emphasis/de-emphasis handled correctly.

 

So back to my original question, how are others dealing with this, if at all? Here's a list of cd's with pre-emphasis (no idea how complete this is but it's enough for a start):

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/pre-emphasis-list.121188/page-45

[GUTB]

I don't have any CDs with pre-emphasis which I believe is only seen on early discs so I can't test it but I've read that iTunes is the only ripping software that will detect pre-emphasis and correct it automatically.

[esldude]

Such CD's were very uncommon.  I think in my entire collection there were 4.  Which I knew about because I once had a DAC that lit an indicator for them.  You definitely want to de-emphasize them.  DR rating is inconsequential as they have a large frequency response error otherwise.  You aren't hearing what was intended. 

 

I ripped and then duplicated the files for those 4 discs.  I did my own reverse curve in Audacity and kept original copies for future purposes.  I used the altered/EQ'd versions for playback.  Later when you could do it in I think Foobar I made new copies of the original that way.  

 

Again such discs were uncommon and probably disappeared by the early 1990's.  

[Panelhead]

  So iTunes has always applied the correction? This is what I use for CD conversion. 

  There are many early discs in the collection. Not sure how many have pre-emphasis applied. Never noticed a strange light on any of the many disc players used in the last 35 years. 

[Ralf11]

Bear Family re-mastered CDs have terrible treble boost on them (e.g. a blues recording I have).

 

nearly unlistenable - is there a general way in iTunes to alter this, other than "Treble Reducer" in Song Info > Options?

 

[diecaster]

SOX is supposed to do the best job of de-emphasizing. I have a Pink Floyd "The Wall" CD that has pre-empahsis. It's a very good mastering. But, after using SOX and listening, I decided to buy another CD set with the same mastering but no pre-emphasis. That CD set sounds much better than the SOX modified set.

 

It was hard tracking down that early West German black face Harvest pressing of "The Wall"....but it was worth it.

[Ralf11]

where did you find that pressing?

 

 

[diecaster]

12 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

where did you find that pressing?

 

 

 

Macedonia!

[rando]

2 hours ago, GUTB said:

I don't have any CDs with pre-emphasis which I believe is only seen on early discs so I can't test it but I've read that iTunes is the only ripping software that will detect pre-emphasis and correct it automatically.

 

One of the many software I've played with in recent month was EZ CD Audio Converter.  In with the long list of features was pre-scanning discs to be burnt for pre-emphasis.  Actually found a disc in my pile to be burnt that had it.  Don't remember the title off hand but clearly remember settling on a highly compressed flac copy made in EAC after multiple rips and comparisons.  

[gmgraves]

On 3/25/2018 at 10:50 AM, Panelhead said:

  So iTunes has always applied the correction? This is what I use for CD conversion. 

  There are many early discs in the collection. Not sure how many have pre-emphasis applied. Never noticed a strange light on any of the many disc players used in the last 35 years. 

I read somewhere years ago that iTunes looked for that flag and set the de-emphesis when needed. Whether they still include that feature in later versions (since the practice has gone out of fashion), I don't know. 

[Daverz]

Pre-emphasis was common on early Supraphon and Bis CDs, and I have a lot of these.  DbPowerAmp should be able to show the pre-emphasis flag if you add the field.  I use Sox to apply de-emphasis.

 

if you miss it, it should be fairly obvious, as the sound will be shrill.

[al210]

On 3/26/2018 at 11:43 PM, Daverz said:

Pre-emphasis was common on early Supraphon and Bis CDs, and I have a lot of these.  DbPowerAmp should be able to show the pre-emphasis flag if you add the field.  I use Sox to apply de-emphasis.

 

if you miss it, it should be fairly obvious, as the sound will be shrill.

I just tried to add the field in DbpowerAmp but the “track details” field is not one of the selections. Running version 16.4. ???

[Daverz]

1 hour ago, al210 said:

I just tried to add the field in DbpowerAmp but the “track details” field is not one of the selections. Running version 16.4. ???

Version 14.4. 

 

Sorry, "Track Technical" is the name of the column.  The pre-emphasis flag shows up as "Pre". 

 

The feature was added in version 14.2:

 

https://www.dbpoweramp.com/Version-Changes-DMC.htm

 

You can also have "Pre-Emphasis" written out as a tag under the metadata config.

[Daverz]

Here's a shell script to apply de-emphasis to all the flacs in a directory:

 

#!/bin/sh

 

for flc in *.flac 

do 

  echo "Applying deemphasis to '$flc'."

  sox "$flc" -b 24 "${flc%.flac}_deemph.flac" deemph && rm "$flc"

done

 

Warning: removes the original files.  You can delete the "&& rm "$flc"" bit to prevent this.  This also uses 24 bits for the output ("-b 24"), which is probably not really necessary.  A more sophisticated script would check for the previously mentioned PRE-EMPHASIS tag using metaflac.

 

[PleasantSounds]

In Foobar it is possible to set up Dynamic DSP to perform the de-emphasis. 

Tracks ripped with pre-emphasis need to be tagged accordingly, then the Dynamic DSP can trigger it on the fly. It's totally seamless even through the gapless playback.

 

[al210]

13 hours ago, Daverz said:

Version 14.4. 

 

Sorry, "Track Technical" is the name of the column.  The pre-emphasis flag shows up as "Pre". 

 

The feature was added in version 14.2:

 

https://www.dbpoweramp.com/Version-Changes-DMC.htm

 

You can also have "Pre-Emphasis" written out as a tag under the metadata config.

I'm obviously missing something because I have no "Track Technical" selection available from the list when I right click on any of the columns. I tried EAC on my Windows machine and it showed my Pink Floyd "The Wall" as no pre emphasis? I was sure that the early pressings all had that?

[diecaster]

1 hour ago, al210 said:

I'm obviously missing something because I have no "Track Technical" selection available from the list when I right click on any of the columns. I tried EAC on my Windows machine and it showed my Pink Floyd "The Wall" as no pre emphasis? I was sure that the early pressings all had that?

 

No, that mastering does not have pre-emphasis. None of the CDs made from that mastering have pre-emphasis. You have this:

 

http://pinkfloydarchives.com/DNLCDPF.htm#Wall2

 

Which is the same as this:

 

http://pinkfloydarchives.com/DUKCDPF.htm#Wall4

 

Your mastering is the same as the two masterings used on the these West German made releases here but at a different level (there is some clipping):

 

http://pinkfloydarchives.com/DGerCDPF.htm#Wall1

 

All of these are based on a Japanese mastering with much lower levels:

 

http://pinkfloydarchives.com/DUKCDPF.htm#Wall1

 

The West German release mentioned above is probably the best of all because the peak levels are close to 100 with out reaching 100.

[al210]

32 minutes ago, diecaster said:

 

No, that mastering does not have pre-emphasis. None of the CDs made from that mastering have pre-emphasis. You have this:

 

http://pinkfloydarchives.com/DNLCDPF.htm#Wall2

 

Which is the same as this:

 

http://pinkfloydarchives.com/DUKCDPF.htm#Wall4

 

Your mastering is the same as the two masterings used on the these West German made releases here but at a different level (there is some clipping):

 

http://pinkfloydarchives.com/DGerCDPF.htm#Wall1

 

All of these are based on a Japanese mastering with much lower levels:

 

http://pinkfloydarchives.com/DUKCDPF.htm#Wall1

 

The West German release mentioned above is probably the best of all because the peak levels are close to 100 with out reaching 100.

Wow, you really know a lot about this recording. I was looking for one of the best CD versions of "The Wall" available. I came across this version on Ebay from a guy in England. My matrix don't match any of those you linked to. I have Disc 1: Bottom: CDP 746836 2 . 3:2:2 EMI SWINDON-- Disc 2: Bottom: CDP 746837 2 . 3:7:3 NL EMI SWINDON. So this version I got isn't that good? I haven't listened to it yet because I have not yet ripped it to flac. I was concerned about the pre-emphasis thing.

[diecaster]

No, it is considered one of the best versions. The West German version I listed is just a tad better because there is no clipping. The clipping is minimal and probably not noticeable. 

 

Rip away way and enjoy!

[Daverz]

2 hours ago, al210 said:

I'm obviously missing something because I have no "Track Technical" selection available from the list when I right click on any of the columns.

 

Now I'm worried about upgrading to dbPowerAmp 16.4.  Perhaps they changed the name of the column?

[al210]

4 minutes ago, diecaster said:

No, it is considered one of the best versions. The West German version I listed is just a tad better because there is no clipping. The clipping is minimal and probably not noticeable. 

 

Rip away way and enjoy!

I see. Thanks for all the info and help!

[al210]

5 minutes ago, Daverz said:

 

Now I'm worried about upgrading to dbPowerAmp 16.4.  Perhaps they changed the name of the column?

 I just ran it on my Windows computer and "track technical" is there. On my iMac there is no selection for it. There were other selections available in the windows version vs Mac as well I noticed. So If your on Windows it appears your ok.

[Daverz]

12 minutes ago, al210 said:

 I just ran it on my Windows computer and "track technical" is there. On my iMac there is no selection for it. There were other selections available in the windows version vs Mac as well I noticed. So If your on Windows it appears your ok.

 

I found this old thread on the Steve Hoffman forum:

 

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/ripping-cds-with-pre-emphasis-on-a-mac.337627/

 

I've used XLD to rip on a Mac, but I can't remember how I dealt with pre-emphasis, if I did.  I might have used cdparanoia (installed with Brew) to list the TOC info.

 

Also, I don't think this thread on the dbPowerAmp forum has been mentioned:

 

https://forum.dbpoweramp.com/showthread.php?40105-Pre-Emphasis-Newbie-What-do-I-need-to-do