Battle of the Entry Level DACs escalates

[bigbob]

Testing, Comparing, Listening, and analysis of the results-- It is the lifeblood of this hobby called Audiophilia. 

 

We here at Computer Audiophile on the Cheap are looking for the BEST combination of entry-level DACs, with Vintage Electronics, at a reasonable price point.

 

Our first foray into Hi-Res Audio was an Audioquest  Dragonfly v1.2, which I bought for $79 on closeout at Best Buy. The first unit was defective, as it was wanting to shut down after precisely 20 seconds of music. AQ replaced that unit, and it worked well.  But, in the interim, I found the Schiit Modi 2 priced at $99.

 

I contacted iFi about doing a test against their iFi iDSD nano LE, which retails for $129.

 

By this test, I realized that the center of any Computer Audiophile system was the external DAC.

Afterall, it was the one thing in the replay path, which would have the most impact on SQ--whether compared to an onboard chip DAC in the laptop or a soundcard in your desktop computer. Amplifiers, speakers, and interconnects are all a variable factor, but if the zeros and ones are not turned into an analog signal properly--everything else becomes secondary.

 

My attention turned to what the DAC was doing with the same set of digital data--whether from a 24-192 HDTracks file or a low-res MP3 lossy recording.

 

I determined that while all digital files are binary, the analog interpretation of those files varied greatly. In the head to head comparison, I liked the 'musicality' of the Schiit Modi 2 over the iFi nano LE.

 

I determined that the headphone amplifier stage in the nano was making the sound 'different'.

 

In audiophile listening, different can be better, or it can be worse. Or it can just be different, without it being better or worse. The Schiit sounded better, but I did like the Burr-Brown chipset in the iFi. 

 

I hoped that iFi had a DAC, which was not also a headphone amplifier, which also deployed the Burr-Brown chipset. If you threw in the Active Noise Cancellation, which came from the iFi iPurifier2, that would be a dynamite DAC.  And the iFi iOne did all that plus has native Bluetooth connectivity.

 

To my ears, comparing the iFi iOne to the Modi 2 was apples and oranges. I still use the Modi 2, with iPurifier2, and I am listening to the iOne right now. The iOne is $199, the Modi 2 is still $99, but the iPurifier2 costs $109--so price wise they are in the same ballpark.

 

My next challenge came from reading about the top-of-the-line Schiit Yggdrasil, which at $2399 was not on anyone's "on the Cheap" list. A fellow CA reader suggested the Modi Multibit (Mimby) which he said compared favorably with the Bifrost Multibit (Bimby). OK, let's through that into the mix.

 

Jason Stoddard, co-founder of Schiit, threw some further light on the subject:

 

"...but one comment: our stuff is true multibit, not some 2-5 bit delta-sigma implementation pawned off as "multibit." If we used that terminology, you could call Modi 2 and Modi 2 Uber "multibit," since they are technically multibit delta-sigma designs. But so is literally everything else out there. Bottom line, if it's not 16 or more bits, it's not truly multibit. 
In addition, all of our true multibit products--from Modi Multibit on up--also use unique medical/military grade D/A converters (find any other DAC using the Analog Devices AD5547...there are none) and also use our own proprietary, unique time- and frequency-domain optimized digital filter, implemented in an Analog Devices SHARC DSP, not the embedded digital filter in a delta-sigma DAC, so they are really very different than anything else out there."

 

The "Mimby" comes in at $249--still very reasonable for a CAOTC system, if we agree that the external DAC is the key to a good sounding system. 

 

The challenge is to pair it with a RasPi server, a refurbished amplifier or receiver, and some reasonably priced speakers for around $500. I think we can do that.

 

 

[ElviaCaprice]

If all digital components do their job "adequate", then the speakers are far and away the greatest influence on SQ.  Follow the path backwards from the speakers for each component with lesser and lesser influence on SQ.  Obviously system integration needs to be considered at all times.

[bigbob]

11 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

If all digital components do their job "adequate", then the speakers are far and away the greatest influence on SQ.  Follow the path backwards from the speakers for each component with lesser and lesser influence on SQ.  Obviously system integration needs to be considered at all times.

 

So grateful to have purchased a pair of Henry Kloss' Large Advent Loudspeakers in 1975, and they are still sounding sweet, after new foam in 1990.

[Ralf11]

2 of them?  or stacked?

 

I had the original Advents when they were new; then got the smaller ones so I could move them around in the trunk of my car more easily...

[bigbob]

19 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

2 of them?  or stacked?

 

I had the original Advents when they were new; then got the smaller ones so I could move them around in the trunk of my car more easily...

 

Just two. I have read about the Harry Pearson "dream" of stacked Advents, which is on my list, should another pair become available at a reasonable price.

[Superdad]

22 hours ago, bigbob said:

 

So grateful to have purchased a pair of Henry Kloss' Large Advent Loudspeakers in 1975, and they are still sounding sweet, after new foam in 1990.

 

Original tweeters?  Don’t those roll off at about 6KHz?  

[bigbob]

Just now, Superdad said:

 

Original tweeters?  Don’t those roll off at about 6KHz?  

 

Yes, original tweeters are still intact and do a fine job, even in the range heard only by Dogs....  My dog feels compelled to sing along with Fleetwood Mac on "Rumours" and Phil Collins on "In the air tonight"... He prefers Grateful Dead and Jazz, just like his dad.

[bigbob]

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?/topic/5746-stacked-advents-as-reviewed-by-the-absolute-sound-magazine/

[bobbmd]

@bigbob i have the reiteration(sic) Henry Kloss Model 6's from his CambridgeSoundWorks company from about 1998 still sound sweet plus the Towers and s-300 satellites plus original Ensembles from about 1988 or so PLUS i have set of Utah unidirectionals(huge heavy boxes) that still sound good-they all should be refurburished(again sic) but still sound ok and my cat who just passed felt the same as your dog and his owner

i even have the passive subwoofers that came with Esembles but don't use them 

great review sources from your feb 4 post i even think i remember reading them a long time ago

my first stereo was the the little suitcase KLH set from 1966 or so

bobbmd

[bigbob]

2 minutes ago, bobbmd said:

@bigbob i have the reiteration(sic) Henry Kloss Model 6's from his CambridgeSoundWorks company from about 1998 still sound sweet plus the Towers and s-300 satellites plus original Ensembles from about 1988 or so PLUS i have set of Utah unidirectionals(huge heavy boxes) that still sound good-they all should be refurburished(again sic) but still sound ok and my cat who just passed felt the same as your dog and his owner

i even have the passive subwoofers that came with Esembles but don't use them 

great review sources from your feb 4 post i even think i remember reading them a long time ago

my first stereo was the the little suitcase KLH set from 1966 or so

bobbmd

Thanks for your posts. I could have so easily been persuaded to buy something, except the Stereo Guy was so excited about Advent in vinyl covering cheap and great. He was time traveling to get my Stereo "right" 40 year ago

[bigbob]

On 2/3/2018 at 1:09 PM, bigbob said:

Testing, Comparing, Listening, and analysis of the results-- It is the lifeblood of this hobby called Audiophilia. 

 

We here at Computer Audiophile on the Cheap are looking for the BEST combination of entry-level DACs, with Vintage Electronics, at a reasonable price point.

 

Our first foray into Hi-Res Audio was an Audioquest  Dragonfly v1.2, which I bought for $79 on closeout at Best Buy. The first unit was defective, as it was wanting to shut down after precisely 20 seconds of music. AQ replaced that unit, and it worked well.  But, in the interim, I found the Schiit Modi 2 priced at $99.

 

I contacted iFi about doing a test against their iFi iDSD nano LE, which retails for $129.

 

By this test, I realized that the center of any Computer Audiophile system was the external DAC.

Afterall, it was the one thing in the replay path, which would have the most impact on SQ--whether compared to an onboard chip DAC in the laptop or a soundcard in your desktop computer. Amplifiers, speakers, and interconnects are all a variable factor, but if the zeros and ones are not turned into an analog signal properly--everything else becomes secondary.

 

My attention turned to what the DAC was doing with the same set of digital data--whether from a 24-192 HDTracks file or a low-res MP3 lossy recording.

 

I determined that while all digital files are binary, the analog interpretation of those files varied greatly. In the head to head comparison, I liked the 'musicality' of the Schiit Modi 2 over the iFi nano LE.

 

I determined that the headphone amplifier stage in the nano was making the sound 'different'.

 

In audiophile listening, different can be better, or it can be worse. Or it can just be different, without it being better or worse. The Schiit sounded better, but I did like the Burr-Brown chipset in the iFi. 

 

I hoped that iFi had a DAC, which was not also a headphone amplifier, which also deployed the Burr-Brown chipset. If you threw in the Active Noise Cancellation, which came from the iFi iPurifier2, that would be a dynamite DAC.  And the iFi iOne did all that plus has native Bluetooth connectivity.

 

To my ears, comparing the iFi iOne to the Modi 2 was apples and oranges. I still use the Modi 2, with iPurifier2, and I am listening to the iOne right now. The iOne is $199, the Modi 2 is still $99, but the iPurifier2 costs $109--so price wise they are in the same ballpark.

 

My next challenge came from reading about the top-of-the-line Schiit Yggdrasil, which at $2399 was not on anyone's "on the Cheap" list. A fellow CA reader suggested the Modi Multibit (Mimby) which he said compared favorably with the Bifrost Multibit (Bimby). OK, let's through that into the mix.

 

Jason Stoddard, co-founder of Schiit, threw some further light on the subject:

 

"...but one comment: our stuff is true multibit, not some 2-5 bit delta-sigma implementation pawned off as "multibit." If we used that terminology, you could call Modi 2 and Modi 2 Uber "multibit," since they are technically multibit delta-sigma designs. But so is literally everything else out there. Bottom line, if it's not 16 or more bits, it's not truly multibit. 
In addition, all of our true multibit products--from Modi Multibit on up--also use unique medical/military grade D/A converters (find any other DAC using the Analog Devices AD5547...there are none) and also use our own proprietary, unique time- and frequency-domain optimized digital filter, implemented in an Analog Devices SHARC DSP, not the embedded digital filter in a delta-sigma DAC, so they are really very different than anything else out there."

 

The "Mimby" comes in at $249--still very reasonable for a CAOTC system, if we agree that the external DAC is the key to a good sounding system. 

 

The challenge is to pair it with a RasPi server, a refurbished amplifier or receiver, and some reasonably priced speakers for around $500. I think we can do that.

 

 

 

 

From the Sweet Spot

I have been listening to music for days since Schiit furnished me with the use of a Wyrd, the USB 'De-crapifier'
(No kidding Google the tech page for the device.) connected to a Schiit Modi Multibit with a very common USB cable.

 

As I sit and listen, at -15dB the music is magic. I am listening to Herbie Hancock "Mwandishi" and everything I want in digital high-resolution stereo music is playing right now.

This is going out a stretch, but $99 + $249 = $348 is the best money you can spend for true multibit architecture.

 

It is impolite to say this any other way...but the Wyrd and Mimby beat the iPurifier2 into the Mimby. But, my fellow reviewer said that he preferred the iPurifier2 in the Mimby over without the ANC.

I can also say that since I own a Modi 2 and the iFi iPurifer2, they will be happy ever after... when all this loaner gear is returned

 

There is a difference in the soundstage and acuity between the Modi 2 and the Multibit. Well worth the additional Two hundred and fifty Dollars well-spent for the Wyrd and Mimby stack.

 

But, the Challenger was the iFi iOne with built-in Bluetooth and wifi for $199--which I cannot say a bad word about

Again a $150 split.

 

I will put it this way. Since DSD, Bluetooth, WiFi connectivity is not a deal breaker for me to go for the iOne which to the discerning listening of my fellow audiophile, was not distinguished from Mimby with the iPurifier2.

 

He has yet to hear the Schiit stack, but I sure he will 'Get It' a few seconds into Herbie Hancock "Head Hunters".

 

From the Sweet Spot, a Bluetooth keyboard, and Nice Jazz and I am happy with this sound.

I know will even sound sweeter with a few hundred hours on the Wyrd, which was pulled for the stock--not another reviewers return unit.

It is getting better every day since it arrived.

 

If you are into Schiit then the Wyrd and Multibit is a steal at under $350.

 

If your music is on your iPhone and you want Bluetooth at $199, the iFi iOne is a good choice also. Since the price just dropped on the iPurifier2, I suspect a 3 will soon be out, so buy now at $99 and blame me when they drop even further as the iPurifier3 is rumored to be out soon.

 

High Fidelity Stereo is a fun hobby, it is a fun second career, it is the fun reason to write.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

'Computer Audiophile on the Cheap had our suspicions confirmed. My audiophile friend and his discerning ears clearly heard the Magic of the Schiit Stack of Wyrd and Mimby. We listened to the Collectors Edition of Thomas Dolby "The Golden Age of Wireless" in 16/44 Redbook CD. He owns an iPurifier2 which he knows well, but the Stack was magical. I even ran a Spotify stream through the rig, and he exclaimed that he had Never heard detail as he heard today. That is Free Spotify (we got four songs into the Original Soundtrack of Candy featuring Steppenwolf, Dave Grusin before the commercials started).' in topics.

[exdmd]

Quote

Why the Wyrd instead of an Eitr?

 

[buonassi]

On 2/3/2018 at 12:09 PM, bigbob said:

 

I determined that while all digital files are binary, the analog interpretation of those files varied greatly. In the head to head comparison, I liked the 'musicality' of the Schiit Modi 2 over the iFi nano LE.

 

I determined that the headphone amplifier stage in the nano was making the sound 'different'.

 

 

I'd add that DACs are also affected by the below.  I think this is what "implementation" refers to and they all cause differences in final sound:  

 

DAC Chip itself

DAC architecture and components - (Resitor to Resistor ladder, delta sigma)

Power source

digital input chips (USB, I2S, Spdif, etc).

Oscillators/Clocks

Digital Filtering Scheme

Analogue stages (including analogue filtering for NOS dacs)

PCB, any other components in series, even solder!

 

Whether you or I can actually hear a difference based on the above is not the point, rather we must accept they are empirically different despite having the same DAC chip, just like identical twins will act differently depending on how they are nurtured.  

 

Higher End DACs that have a built in headphone amp, usually separate it from the RCA outs so that the unit can truly be used as a standalone DAC without the head stage affecting the sound.  Doesn't sound like this is the case with nano.  

 

[buonassi]

@bigbob, are you going to be climbing the ladder to the next level DACs at CAOTC?  I'd love to follow that as well.  Personally, I'm ready to make the next leap, but can't quite wrap my mind around spending 1-2K for a truly respectable high end DAC just yet.  Why?  I'm so impressed by what these $200-$350 units can do I have a hard time believing I'll be as impressed when I make the next leap.  I'd love to see what a $600 unit gets me.  But there doesn't seem to be a broad market for units in this price category.  It's either cheap(ish), or go for big money.  

 

irdac2 by Arcam was on my shortlist, but is not any longer due to a linear phase, time symmetrical FIR filter, that can't be changed.

[bigbob]

Not right now, but when $350 comes my way, it is the best bang for the buck in the under $350 weight-class. It fights way above its weight...any other hackneyed descriptions. Reminds me when I paid to write, as a Sports Editor...that is the land of cliches.

 

To answer the question of the Eitr.. that is a $199 device that converts USB to S/PDIF which replaces the Wyrd. Wyrd is a USB decrapifier, and I assume the civil engineers at Schiit have built 'de-crapification' into the Eitr--actually the Gen 5 from the Yggy-- which mean you are going to get what you pay for.

 

Engineers in that California company deal with Schiit every day.

[beerandmusic]

 

3 minutes ago, bigbob said:

Not right now, but when $350 comes my way, it is the best bang for the buck in the under $350 weight-class. It fights way above its weight...any other hackneyed descriptions. Reminds me when I paid to write, as a Sports Editor...that is the land of cliches.

 

To answer the question of the Eitr.. that is a $199 device that converts USB to S/PDIF which replaces the Wyrd. Wyrd is a USB decrapifier, and I assume the civil engineers at Schiit have built 'de-crapification' into the Eitr--actually the Gen 5 from the Yggy-- which mean you are going to get what you pay for.

 

Engineers in that California company deal with Schiit every day.

 

Hi bigbob,

just in case you weren't aware there is a thread on this site the compares most of the usb toys, that several members participated in, and the ifi micro iusb 3.0 came out on top by a pretty wide margin...but i do believe it was one of the more expensive, and it also does the most.

just an fyi, in case you were not aware.

[bigbob]

33 minutes ago, buonassi said:

 

I'd add that DACs are also affected by the below.  I think this is what "implementation" refers to and they all cause differences in final sound:  

 

--clipped--

 

Whether you or I can actually hear a difference based on the above is not the point, rather we must accept they are empirically different despite having the same DAC chip, just like identical twins will act differently depending on how they are nurtured.  

 

Higher End DACs that have a built in headphone amp, usually separate it from the RCA outs so that the unit can truly be used as a standalone DAC without the head stage affecting the sound.  Doesn't sound like this is the case with nano.  

 

1

 

That is the main reason why I wanted to test the iFi iOne and it is a recommended component in the "Under $200" class of DACs. Sound quality is a matter of preference. I found iOne to be technically correct, and I found the Mimby/Wyrd more analog, warm and inviting. The nano had the DAC running through the headphone amp, at least the pot attenuated the signal...

[bigbob]

7 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

 

 

Hi bigbob,

just in case you weren't aware there is a thread on this site the compares most of the usb toys, that several members participated in, and the ifi micro iusb 3.0 came out on top by a pretty wide margin...but i do believe it was one of the more expensive, and it also does the most.

just an fyi, in case you were not aware.

 

 

 Thanks-- Dude, you must psychedelic.  I just recommended to my audiophile friend/patron/fellow reviewer that would be his upgrade from the iPurifier 2. Get their two-headed USB cable and enjoy. $379 for the micro, the cable is another $379...

 

Or, Great minds think alike

[beerandmusic]

6 minutes ago, bigbob said:

 

 

 Thanks-- Dude, you must psychedelic.  I just recommended to my audiophile friend/patron/fellow reviewer that would be his upgrade from the iPurifier 2. Get their two-headed USB cable and enjoy. $379 for the micro don't know about the cable...

 

Or, Great minds think alike

 

psychic or psychedelic...my acid days are long over (grin)

 

Also, i am not sure these toys are needed if you have a modern dac that markets they have PC/USB isolation circuitry, and it may make sense to put that $400 toward a newer dac that does market pc/usb isolation...just another thought.

[bigbob]

1 minute ago, beerandmusic said:

 

psychic or psychedelic...my acid days are long over (grin)

 

 Mine ended in 1991...I use them interchangeably if you are Experienced...

[beerandmusic]

12 minutes ago, bigbob said:

 

 Mine ended in 1991...I use them interchangeably if you are Experienced...

 

btw, one of my more difficult Near Mint first press albums to obtain....

[bigbob]

Yes, Jimi Janice and Jerry...and that is not in order..?

[buonassi]

I'd like to throw the audioquest dragonfly red in the hat for "entry level" consideration.  It too has a headphone amp, but Man is this thing on point.  Linear in FR, min phase in its digital reconstruction filter, which makes for snappy and CRISP transients.  

 

Art Dudley at stereophile used it as a line level DAC (2.1 volts fixed) in his testing and was thoroughly impressed.  I have yet to do that because I don't have a good 3.5 to RCA cable, but have used it as a dac/amp on several sources (ipad/ipod/mac mini/windows laptop) and found it to perform better than my DAP (Fiio X5iii), so I'll be selling my Fiio now that I've heard the DFR.  

[bigbob]

52 minutes ago, buonassi said:

I'd like to throw the audioquest dragonfly red in the hat for "entry level" consideration.  It too has a headphone amp, but Man is this thing on point.  Linear in FR, min phase in its digital reconstruction filter, which makes for snappy and CRISP transients.  

 

Art Dudley at stereophile used it as a line level DAC (2.1 volts fixed) in his testing and was thoroughly impressed.  I have yet to do that because I don't have a good 3.5 to RCA cable, but have used it as a dac/amp on several sources (ipad/ipod/mac mini/windows laptop) and found it to perform better than my DAP (Fiio X5iii), so I'll be selling my Fiio now that I've heard the DFR.  

 

 

I started out with Dragonfly v 1.2. I had a dud and whilst awaiting the replacement, I bought the Modi2. Use it as a headphone amp on my laptop. Schiit at $99 is hard to get better.

[Ralf11]

Where does the DAC built into my 2017 IMac rank on the iFi, Schiit, Dragonfly scale?