Battle of the Entry Level DACs escalates

[bigbob]

14 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

Where does the DAC built into my 2017 IMac rank on the iFi, Schiit, Dragonfly scale?

 

I don't know about Macs.

 

 

 

[bigbob]

Just for a changeup, since I mentioning the AudioQuest Dragonfly as a headphone amp. I pulled it out and I am hearing great stereo in my Sennheisers.

[buonassi]

1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

Where does the DAC built into my 2017 IMac rank on the iFi, Schiit, Dragonfly scale?

 

it's a little pricey for this entry level comparison and seems like overkill when all one needs is a DAC.   

[Rocky Bennett]

Thanks bigbob for starting this thread. It is very informative since I believe that the DAC is a very important aspect of the final sound quality. I will continue to educate myself on the differences between different DACs that I can afford, and this thread is a great resource to point me in the right direction to understand the importance of power conditioning and other factors that influence sound quality.

 

Rocky Bennett

[audiobomber]

20 hours ago, bigbob said:

It is impolite to say this any other way...but the Wyrd and Mimby beat the iPurifier2 into the Mimby. But, my fellow reviewer said that he preferred the iPurifier2 in the Mimby over without the ANC.

I can also say that since I own a Modi 2 and the iFi iPurifer2, they will be happy ever after... when all this loaner gear is returned

 

There is a difference in the soundstage and acuity between the Modi 2 and the Multibit. Well worth the additional Two hundred and fifty Dollars well-spent for the Wyrd and Mimby stack.

 

But, the Challenger was the iFi iOne with built-in Bluetooth and wifi for $199--which I cannot say a bad word about

Again a $150 split.

 

 

> my fellow reviewer said that he preferred the iPurifier2 in the Mimby over without the ANC.

 

Can you please clarify for me bigbob? I suspect you left out some words? Also, what is the ANC? I'm not familiar with that term.

 

> But, the Challenger was the iFi iOne with built-in Bluetooth and wifi for $199--which I cannot say a bad word about

Again a $150 split.

 

IME, a DAC power supply upgrade makes a big difference. Adding a great PS to the iOne would equalize the price and improve the sonics. I just ordered an iOne this morning, to be used in a secondary system, with Chromecast Audio via glass Toslink. 

 

I'm really enjoying reading your entry-level DAC shootouts.

[bigbob]

7 minutes ago, audiobomber said:

> my fellow reviewer said that he preferred the iPurifier2 in the Mimby over without the ANC.

 

Can you please clarify for me bigbob? I suspect you left out some words? Also, what is the ANC? I'm not familiar with that term.

 

1

 

ANC is Active Noise Cancellation, a technology the iFi has been given from their parent AMR--developed for fighter jets and providing 100% efficacy. I can attest that improved the Mimby by making the sound crisper, and clear.

 

We were using Thomas Dolby's "Aliens Ate my Buick" a cut called "Pulp Culture"  During the intro there are layers of conversation in the background. Without the iPurifier2, the Mimby was muddled, the voices were unintelligible. With ANC, they were distinct and recognizable voices.

 

The effect is replicated now with the Wyrd, meaning that untreated, the USB feed was carrying in noise which degraded the SQ. Noise isn't a noticeable defect until it is gone. I like the iFi iOne, with the ANC built in. Using an optical connection would eliminate the possibility of USB noise.

 

The Mimby needs a Wyrd or iP2 if you have USB noise issues.

 

Then, there is the Eitr with gen 5 technology, which outputs an S/PDIF...and I assume that would best the Wyrd, at twice the price.

[bigbob]

43 minutes ago, audiobomber said:

 

IME, a DAC power supply upgrade makes a big difference. Adding a great PS to the iOne would equalize the price and improve the sonics. I just ordered an iOne this morning, to be used in a secondary system, with Chromecast Audio via glass Toslink. 

 

I'm really enjoying reading your entry-level DAC shootouts.

 

 

The iOne is powered by USB and has their ANC built-in, so I guess you could benefit from an external PS.

 

Your signal is coming in Toslink-- there is an adapter in the box since it has only S/PDIF and USB inputs.

 

I think you might be surprised before buying an external PS to hear the iFi iOne using the USB power with the enclosed wall wort and their USB 3.0 cable also included.

 

ANC will clean up the USB power and is separate from your signal path anyway.

[bigbob]

3 hours ago, Rocky Bennett said:

Thanks bigbob for starting this thread. It is very informative since I believe that the DAC is a very important aspect of the final sound quality. I will continue to educate myself on the differences between different DACs that I can afford, and this thread is a great resource to point me in the right direction to understand the importance of power conditioning and other factors that influence sound quality.

 

1

 

I was a late adopter of the power conditioning until I met the HFC MC-0.5. It just plugs into an adjacent outlet on your power strip and it's magnetic.

 

"The MC-0.5 is a magnetic conduction device. Covered under the connector is a series of patented products. This unique device simply plugs into the wall to apply magnetic conduction to incoming electricity. The MC-0.5, once plugged into an extra outlet, delivers a dramatically cleaner, clearer music signal with better dynamics, realism and musicality. It is both more detailed as well as more relaxed-sounding at the same time." --http://www.highfidelitycables.com/products/accessories/mc05/

[audiobomber]

1 hour ago, bigbob said:

 

The iOne is powered by USB and has their ANC built-in, so I guess you could benefit from an external PS.

 

Your signal is coming in Toslink-- there is an adapter in the box since it has only S/PDIF and USB inputs.

 

I think you might be surprised before buying an external PS to hear the iFi iOne using the USB power with the enclosed wall wort and their USB 3.0 cable also included.

 

ANC will clean up the USB power and is separate from your signal path anyway.

 

 

I've not decided whether I will upgrade the power supply, but certainly not right now. I hesitated to even do the DAC upgrade, because the little system sounds really good, even through the CCA line outs. I'm putting on the brakes because I've spent a lot on computer audio in the past few months. I decided to go ahead with the iOne anyway, because it has so many features that I value and because the downstream components  (Bryston pre, Meitner power, single driver speakers) have a lot more potential than the CCA alone can exploit. 

 

2 hours ago, bigbob said:

 

ANC is Active Noise Cancellation, a technology the iFi has been given from their parent AMR--developed for fighter jets and providing 100% efficacy. I can attest that improved the Mimby by making the sound crisper, and clear.

 

We were using Thomas Dolby's "Aliens Ate my Buick" a cut called "Pulp Culture"  During the intro there are layers of conversation in the background. Without the iPurifier2, the Mimby was muddled, the voices were unintelligible. With ANC, they were distinct and recognizable voices.

 

The effect is replicated now with the Wyrd, meaning that untreated, the USB feed was carrying in noise which degraded the SQ. Noise isn't a noticeable defect until it is gone. I like the iFi iOne, with the ANC built in. Using an optical connection would eliminate the possibility of USB noise.

 

The Mimby needs a Wyrd or iP2 if you have USB noise issues.

 

Then, there is the Eitr with gen 5 technology, which outputs an S/PDIF...and I assume that would best the Wyrd, at twice the price.

 

DOH! I should have remembered what ANC is and does, after all the reading I've done at iFi. As a old audiophile, but computer audio newbie, I've had to learn a lot of new terms. 

 

I have an iPurifier2 for use on the USB output of my Dell laptop, because without it the sound is crap. It helps a great deal. I'm ripping my records through a Korg DS-DAC-10R. The music doesn't go through the laptop, but USB power does, so I figured I needed to clean it up.

 

I tried the iPurifier in my main system; between an sMs-200 with linear regulated PS and the Korg. It actually made the system sound worse (slower, less dynamic). Just not needed there I guess.

[bigbob]

5 minutes ago, audiobomber said:

 

 

I tried the iPurifier in my main system; between an sMs-200 with linear regulated PS and the Korg. It actually made the system sound worse (slower, less dynamic). Just not needed there I guess.

1

 I found the same thing when I plugged in the iP2 into the iOne...guilty of double cancellation.

[exdmd]

23 hours ago, bigbob said:

Not right now, but when $350 comes my way, it is the best bang for the buck in the under $350 weight-class. It fights way above its weight...any other hackneyed descriptions. Reminds me when I paid to write, as a Sports Editor...that is the land of cliches.

 

To answer the question of the Eitr.. that is a $199 device that converts USB to S/PDIF which replaces the Wyrd. Wyrd is a USB decrapifier, and I assume the civil engineers at Schiit have built 'de-crapification' into the Eitr--actually the Gen 5 from the Yggy-- which mean you are going to get what you pay for.

 

Engineers in that California company deal with Schiit every day.

 

Eitr is $179 and Schiit makes it clear in Eitr FAQ if you use the Eitr you don't need the Wyrd as Eitr electromagnetically and electrostatically isolates your USB source from your DAC. In an S/PDIF comparison Eitr was rated best value:

 

Quote

Nothing comes close to the value of the Schiit Eitr. The other USB devices might as well not exist if all you’re after is S/PDIF conversion. You have to spend more than 4x the price to get something better (Lynx E22 at $700 + breakout cable + AES->S/PDIF cable).

 

As long as your DAC has coax in and you can afford the extra $80 IMO get the Eitr over Wyrd. If I were buying a Modi Multibit it makes sense to use the Eitr over Wyrd. Schitt agrees as starting with Bifrost Multibit ($600) Schitt builds the Eitr in (Gen 5 USB).

 

Not trying to derail the thread but I would hate for anyone to think they should buy Wyrd over Eitr. I use Eitr with my Brooklyn DAC+ and the more expensive DAC+ even has better SQ using an Eitr.

[bigbob]

34 minutes ago, exdmd said:

 

Eitr is $179 and Schiit makes it clear in Eitr FAQ if you use the Eitr you don't need the Wyrd as Eitr electromagnetically and electrostatically isolates your USB source from your DAC. In an S/PDIF comparison Eitr was rated best value:

 

 

As long as your DAC has coax in and you can afford the extra $80 IMO get the Eitr over Wyrd. If I were buying a Modi Multibit it makes sense to use the Eitr over Wyrd. Schitt agrees as starting with Bifrost Multibit ($600) Schitt builds the Eitr in (Gen 5 USB).

 

Not trying to derail the thread but I would hate for anyone to think they should buy Wyrd over Eitr. I use Eitr with my Brooklyn DAC+ and the more expensive DAC+ even has better SQ using an Eitr.

 

 

Thanks for the input. I guess I'll need to manifest $428 instead of $350.

What you are saying makes perfect sense. 

I am just so pleased with the Wyrd/Mimby, I failed to think outside the box.

 

Now we are talking about The Best for the Least is $428...and the ONLY thing you are giving up is upgradability of the Modi chassis vs. the Bifrost Multibit--which is upgradeable at $778.

 

And we have rapidly been moved from a Wyrd (at $99) vs. iFi iPurifier2 ($99) to a Mimby/Eitr at $428...so if you are going to buy the convertible, might as well go deluxe-- to a Bifrost MB/Eitr at $778. 

This is why we call it Desire-Aquire Syndrome.

 

No credit cards were harmed in this reply...

[buonassi]

 

48 minutes ago, exdmd said:

Not trying to derail the thread but I would hate for anyone to think they should buy Wyrd over Eitr. I use Eitr with my Brooklyn DAC+ and the more expensive DAC+ even has better SQ using an Eitr.

I've heard similar claims and don't doubt the sonic abilities of SPDIF over USB.  However, for those of us wanting higher than 192 sample rates and DSD capability, we need USB.  

 

For this reason I'm using the nano iUSB 3 by iFi - it's a wyrd competitor - inline between my mac and my iDAC2.  Not only does it have ANC and is a USB reclocker, but it comes with a iFi's own $50 low noise power supply (iPower).  It separates the power from your computer and instead drives power to the DAC using the upgraded power supply - like the wyrd.  Only the music bits are carried over from the computer after they are reclocked and cleaned.  

 

Whole kit costs $200.  Not sure it's better than wyrd, but it's another option.

[bigbob]

3 minutes ago, buonassi said:

 

I've heard similar claims and don't doubt the sonic abilities of SPDIF over USB.  However, for those of us wanting higher than 192 sample rates and DSD capability, we need USB.  

 

For this reason I'm using the nano iUSB 3 by iFi - it's a wyrd competitor - inline between my mac and my iDAC2.  Not only does it have ANC and is a USB reclocker, but it comes with a iFi's own $50 low noise power supply (iPower).  It separates the power from your computer and instead drives power to the DAC using the upgraded power supply - like the wyrd.  Only the music bits are carried over from the computer after they are reclocked and cleaned.  

 

Whole kit costs $200.  Not sure it's better than wyrd, but it's another option.

 

And the Schiit vs. iFi is a healthy competition. I have reviewed both companies products and own pieces from each. We are expanding out this topic, and It appears that whether you go iFi or Schiit, you will be pleased.

[buonassi]

@bigbob, another thing to consider is your player software.  Perhaps this thread is growing into a "best digital chain for the least" given the eitr, wyrd, ipurifier etc additions.   

 

I can't make any claims, but have read that the player software can make a difference especially if it can bypass your core audio from your OS and interact directly with your DAC.  Players like Audirvana+ for Mac can work in 'direct mode' as well as 'integer mode'.  I have to think there is something similar for Windows.  

 

I want to say I heard a difference with integer mode enabled when I had the mimby.  But I can't recall.  I haven't really been in the mood for crazy critical listening but will update my findings if I ever find anything.... ha ha.  

[exdmd]

1 hour ago, bigbob said:

 

Thanks for the input. I guess I'll need to manifest $428 instead of $350.

What you are saying makes perfect sense. 

I am just so pleased with the Wyrd/Mimby, I failed to think outside the box.

 

Now we are talking about The Best for the Least is $428...and the ONLY thing you are giving up is upgradability of the Modi chassis vs. the Bifrost Multibit--which is upgradeable at $778.

 

And we have rapidly been moved from a Wyrd (at $99) vs. iFi iPurifier2 ($99) to a Mimby/Eitr at $428...so if you are going to buy the convertible, might as well go deluxe-- to a Bifrost MB/Eitr at $778. 

This is why we call it Desire-Aquire Syndrome.

 

No credit cards were harmed in this reply...

 

Bifrost Multibit has Eitr built in (that is the Gen 5 USB) so a Bifrost Multibit is a bargain at $600. Better power supply than Modi Multibit and more important is upgradeable where Modi Multibit is not. For price/performance I think it is the best bargain in the Schiit lineup. I have one at work and while it is not as good as the Brooklyn I have at home it is a pretty darn good DAC.

[bigbob]

I am using Audacious on my Linux computer, with the ALSA plug-in.

In this case, the computer is just a pass-thru for the USB signal.

 

I have a RaspPi 3 and want to try the Boss DAC set-up that Darko gave a good review.  And I want to use Volumio as the player on the Pi.

Or just use it as a USB hub, since my active noise cancellation will clean it up.

I wanted to make it my music server, but it doesn't recognize the 4Tb external (2Tb limit)--the whole RasPi thing is beginning to be more trouble than it's worth.

I could network it to the Pi via WiFi but I am old and getting set in my ways.

 

My $14 Goodwill computer with my $39 120Gb SSD is working just fine...

I will soon be back to the things I own... and that means my Modi 2 with the iFi iPurifier2 will provide my signal, and my computer will still have an intimate relationship with the storage device...Just like Linus intended.

[bigbob]

12 minutes ago, exdmd said:

 

Bifrost Multibit has Eitr built in (that is the Gen 5 USB) so a Bifrost Multibit is a bargain at $600. Better power supply than Modi Multibit and more important is upgradeable where Modi Multibit is not. For price/performance I think it is the best bargain in the Schiit lineup. I have one at work and while it is not as good as the Brooklyn I have at home it is a pretty darn good DAC.

1

 

Ok, that is good to know.  So the Bifrost MB (Bimby), is the best for $699... I think I can agree with that. The problem is that "on the Cheap" got lost a few ideations ago. When all my loan-for-review units are returned, I will still be content with what I had all along-- Modi 2 with iP2. I will miss the Mimby/Wyrd and the iFi iOne... it has been fun.

This whole comparison thing can be summed up, iFi for DSD-- Schiit for everyday USB in PCM.

[Ralf11]

do the new Bifrosts  have the Eitr built in ??

 

the Multibit shows a PCB pn the Schiit site

[exdmd]

1 hour ago, buonassi said:

 

I've heard similar claims and don't doubt the sonic abilities of SPDIF over USB.  However, for those of us wanting higher than 192 sample rates and DSD capability, we need USB.  

 

For this reason I'm using the nano iUSB 3 by iFi - it's a wyrd competitor - inline between my mac and my iDAC2.  Not only does it have ANC and is a USB reclocker, but it comes with a iFi's own $50 low noise power supply (iPower).  It separates the power from your computer and instead drives power to the DAC using the upgraded power supply - like the wyrd.  Only the music bits are carried over from the computer after they are reclocked and cleaned.  

 

Whole kit costs $200.  Not sure it's better than wyrd, but it's another option.

 

Good point since even Bifrost Multibit is limited to 192 sample rate.

[audiobomber]

56 minutes ago, buonassi said:

 

I've heard similar claims and don't doubt the sonic abilities of SPDIF over USB.  However, for those of us wanting higher than 192 sample rates and DSD capability, we need USB.  

 

There is no universal truth as to whether optical, USB or SPDIF is superior. It depends on the implementation. I used to have a DiscMagic/IsoMagic transport/DAC, with optical connection for clock sync and a choice of BNC or Toslink for data. The designer, John Westlake, suggested I try Toslink vs. the high quality BNC cord I was using for data. Sure enough, there was an improvement, despite the commonly held view that electrical connection always beats optical. Because of the way he had designed the circuit and the separate clock link, the electrical isolation of the Toslink won out.

 

I now have an Audiolab 8200CD player, also designed by John. It is basically a digital preamp with a CD tray. It has DAC inputs for Toslink, Coax, USB sources up to 96/24. The clock-locked Asynchronous USB input is as capable or more capable than other inputs, and this is what John recommended to use for external sources. I'm not using any of the digital inputs on the 8200, but I did do a couple of listening tests and USB connection from my laptop did sound better than glass Toslink via Chromecast Audio. Again though, this is not universal, it depends on the gear. Best to listen to the possible combinations for any given system. 

[beerandmusic]

^^^^  if you just want a cheap dac, i suggest using the ethernet port on your avr or in a sony bluray player....you can get SQ that is comparable to the cheapo dacs for less than $50 by using jriver and using the bluray player or your avr as a DLNA endpoint.

Setup in 10 minutes for free.

[exdmd]

11 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

do the new Bifrosts  have the Eitr built in ??

 

the Multibit shows a PCB pn the Schiit site

 

Yes even the Delta-Sigma Bifrost at $400 has Gen 5 USB (Eitr) built in according to the Schiit website. However Delta-Sigma DACs are generally considered inferior to R-2R ladder DACs like the Bifrost Multibit.

[franz159]

1 hour ago, bigbob said:

I am using Audacious on my Linux computer, with the ALSA plug-in.

In this case, the computer is just a pass-thru for the USB signal.

 

I have a RaspPi 3 and want to try the Boss DAC set-up that Darko gave a good review.  And I want to use Volumio as the player on the Pi.

Or just use it as a USB hub, since my active noise cancellation will clean it up.

I wanted to make it my music server, but it doesn't recognize the 4Tb external (2Tb limit)--the whole RasPi thing is beginning to be more trouble than it's worth.

I could network it to the Pi via WiFi but I am old and getting set in my ways.

 

My $14 Goodwill computer with my $39 120Gb SSD is working just fine...

I will soon be back to the things I own... and that means my Modi 2 with the iFi iPurifier2 will provide my signal, and my computer will still have an intimate relationship with the storage device...Just like Linus intended.

 

Are you sure there is 2Tb limit on HDD for raspberry? I think it would be important not to spread mis-information.

With bigger disks yo might have to power them externally, because the raspberry USB would not have enough power for them, but that's pretty much it.

 

See, for example 

 

[bigbob]

12 minutes ago, franz159 said:

 

Are you sure there is 2Tb limit on HDD for raspberry? I think it would be important not to spread mis-information.

With bigger disks yo might have to power them externally, because the raspberry USB would not have enough power for them, but that's pretty much it.

 

See, for example 

 

 

I will admit that this seemed odd to me also, but when I plugged it into the USB Port, I got an error message that said "this architecture cannot mount 4Tb device, only 2Tb supported with this architecture" or something to that effect, and not knowing any better I called my Raspi guru and he said it should see it as a device with no problems. So I plugged it in and gave a reboot--same error message...I dunno, it would be fabulous if it was mounting.