Help GUTB Get a Consumer Amp

[Panelhead]

5 hours ago, GUTB said:

Okay. I ordered a used Onkyo A-9010 because it was inexpensive. I also ordered a Crown XLS25002 off Amazon due to a strong recommendation from a member who PM’d me.

 

Keep them coming guys.

  Too get the most from the Crown use balanced inputs, max the gain, and use the Neutrik output connectors. 

  I have a 1500 and 2000. The single ended inputs picked up hum. The 5 way binding posts are way cheap.

  The sonics are fine if connected correctly. I am not using them, but they sounded fine. 

[GUTB]

1 hour ago, Panelhead said:

  Too get the most from the Crown use balanced inputs, max the gain, and use the Neutrik output connectors. 

  I have a 1500 and 2000. The single ended inputs picked up hum. The 5 way binding posts are way cheap.

  The sonics are fine if connected correctly. I am not using them, but they sounded fine. 

 

Is there a way to connect regular speaker binding posts to a SpeakON amp connection?

[Ron Scubadiver]

1 hour ago, Panelhead said:

  Too get the most from the Crown use balanced inputs, max the gain, and use the Neutrik output connectors. 

  I have a 1500 and 2000. The single ended inputs picked up hum. The 5 way binding posts are way cheap.

  The sonics are fine if connected correctly. I am not using them, but they sounded fine. 

I am using rca inputs and there is no hum.  The binding posts are not 5 way.  They take banana plugs or bare wires only and they hold on to those connections tight.  I guess that makes them 2 way.  There is a long thread on one of the AV forums recommending not to turn the gain all the way up, but turn it down and use more gain at the pre amp.  I have found this to work with my XLS 1502.  This reduces the noise floor to inaudible even with one's head next to the speaker.

 

However, I can imagine scenarios where keeping the gain all the way up works best, perhaps with a noisy preamp.  Perhaps things are a little different with the Drive Core 2 series.

 

 

[psjug]

16 hours ago, GUTB said:

Okay. I ordered a used Onkyo A-9010 because it was inexpensive. I also ordered a Crown XLS25002 off Amazon due to a strong recommendation from a member who PM’d me.

 

Keep them coming guys.

These are interesting.  The Onkyo gets really good reviews but doesn't offer a ton of power.  The Crown is pro audio, gobs of power, ClassD with a fan.  People seem to really like it for home audio, and I bet it is good, but this is not what it is designed for.  It will be very interesting to see how you like it.

 

I think it would be good for you to include something in-between, as far as power rating goes.

[Panelhead]

13 hours ago, Ron Scubadiver said:

 

 

However, I can imagine scenarios where keeping the gain all the way up works best, perhaps with a noisy preamp.  Perhaps things are a little different with the Drive Core 2 series.

 

 

 If balanced inputs are used the amp is noise free with the gain maxed. Most people using single ended input set the gain knob around 2 o’clock to reduce hum.

  I think there is massive levels of hash generated at the back of the amps. The balanced connection has better noise rejection. 

  I use cheap speaker cables. Less than 100.00 type. Terminated a set with Speakon plugs. Just for Crowns. 

[Ron Scubadiver]

8 minutes ago, Panelhead said:

 If balanced inputs are used the amp is noise free with the gain maxed. Most people using single ended input set the gain knob around 2 o’clock to reduce hum.

  I think there is massive levels of hash generated at the back of the amps. The balanced connection has better noise rejection. 

  I use cheap speaker cables. Less than 100.00 type. Terminated a set with Speakon plugs. Just for Crowns. 

I might take a look at Speakon plugs.  I keep the gain set around 3 o'clock.  Maxed out there is a little hiss, but no hum.  Sometimes the origin of hum is outside the amp, sometimes not.

 

What is PM/PV software?

[Panelhead]

1 hour ago, Ron Scubadiver said:

 

 

What is PM/PV software?

Pure Music/Pure Vinyl. Memory (RAM) playback with upsampling to the maximum rate of the interface usually sounds best. Plus a software crossover function. Has a Less is More that improves playback more than I can understand. Kind of like playlist. 

  Just works. Does not update often. The developer feels if it is working he does not fix it. Have used A+ and others. 

[Panelhead]

1 hour ago, Ron Scubadiver said:

 

 

What is PM/PV software?

Pure Music/Pure Vinyl. Memory (RAM) playback with upsampling to the maximum rate of the interface usually sounds best. Plus a software crossover function. Has a Less is More that improves playback more than I can understand. Kind of like playlist. 

  Just works. Does not update often. The developer feels if it is working he does not fix it. Have used A+ and others. 

[Ron Scubadiver]

12 minutes ago, Panelhead said:

Pure Music/Pure Vinyl. Memory (RAM) playback with upsampling to the maximum rate of the interface usually sounds best. Plus a software crossover function. Has a Less is More that improves playback more than I can understand. Kind of like playlist. 

  Just works. Does not update often. The developer feels if it is working he does not fix it. Have used A+ and others. 

Do you know how Pure Music does the upsampling as in:

Linear or minimum phase?

Slow roll off, fast roll off or brick wall low pass filters?

Is it fixed or do you have a choice?

 

[GUTB]

Another consideration is the source. I have a heavily specialized audio PC running Roon and HQPlayer running DSD512 through a Cyan DSD DAC — a chain which costs much more than the equipment I’ll be trying out.

[Ralf11]

when done with the ones you ordered, try a DBT ona Vidar - if it flunks, send it back

[skatbelt]

On 1/19/2018 at 6:04 AM, GUTB said:

Okay guys.

 

Help me get a consumer-grade integrated amp that can compete with high-end sound. All my preconceptions and biases are out the window. Class D. Vintage. Super cheap. All amps are welcome. There are no price limitation except that it must be in the general consumer product price range. No boutique gear. No gear that can only be heard in dealers and audio shows. Consumer brands only (NAD, Yamaha, Onkyo, etc and so on).

 

I will seriously evaluate the amp in my system, and directly compare it against my Linnenberg Allegros. 

 

Lyngdorf TDAI 2170 (or even better, a TDAI 2200 if you are lucky to find one second hand). Yes, I am biased.

[psjug]

@GUTBNAD C355BEE on ebay, bidding is at about $160 with 1 hr left.  This is an 80WPC amplifier so a step up from the Onkyo in terms of power.

[GUTB]

17 minutes ago, psjug said:

@GUTBNAD C355BEE on ebay, bidding is at about $160 with 1 hr left.  This is an 80WPC amplifier so a step up from the Onkyo in terms of power.

 

Thanks. I'll see if I can snipe it.

[Thuaveta]

On 20/01/2018 at 10:19 PM, GUTB said:

Another consideration is the source. I have a heavily specialized audio PC running Roon and HQPlayer running DSD512 through a Cyan DSD DAC — a chain which costs much more than the equipment I’ll be trying out.

 

RasPi + HifiBerry Pro + an iFi wall-wart should essentially get you the ready-to wear version of the cheaper Bryston streamer.

 

You'd probably want to run RoPieee on it, since it's the simplest Roon endpoint to install AFAICT. If you're comfortable editing files, you can go all tweak-tastic, try Archimago's CRAAP settings. You might also want to lower the volume 3 or 4 db in Roon's headroom management to get rid of potential intersample issues.

 

If you want to stick to the spirit of the experiment, you could try one of HifiBerry's dac boards, or splurge and try the allo option that can be powered externally. Going all-out and getting both a dac board and a spdif board would, of course, allow you to figure out how much of a difference your DAC makes when fronting that gear the proles use.

[GUTB]

7 minutes ago, Thuaveta said:

 

RasPi + HifiBerry Pro + an iFi wall-wart should essentially get you the ready-to wear version of the cheaper Bryston streamer.

 

You'd probably want to run RoPieee on it, since it's the simplest Roon endpoint to install AFAICT. If you're comfortable editing files, you can go all tweak-tastic, try Archimago's CRAAP settings. You might also want to lower the volume 3 or 4 db in Roon's headroom management to get rid of potential intersample issues.

 

If you want to stick to the spirit of the experiment, you could try one of HifiBerry's dac boards, or splurge and try the allo option that can be powered externally. Going all-out and getting both a dac board and a spdif board would, of course, allow you to figure out how much of a difference your DAC makes when fronting that gear the proles use.

 

Very interesting...these are things I had no idea existed. Maybe I should go for it? The cost is next to nothing...

[Thuaveta]

3 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

Very interesting...these are things I had no idea existed. Maybe I should go for it? The cost is next to nothing...

 

They're loads of fun... and if you decide you don't like what they do, you can always repurpose bits and pieces as a Roon endpoint driving a rather better looking (and probably better sounding) Sonos alternative 

[GUTB]

Well I "won" the bid on the C355BEE but unfortunately the reserve price wasn't met...why do people waste time with this? Why not just set a minimum bid?

[psjug]

2 minutes ago, GUTB said:

Well I "won" the bid on the C355BEE but unfortunately the reserve price wasn't met...why do people waste time with this? Why not just set a minimum bid?

I agree - the reserve is stupid.  You might ask them what they want for it though.  Looks like the seller an audio dealer so presumably it is working OK if they say it is.

[GUTB]

The Crown is in.

 

[GUTB]

First day with the Crown was uneventful. Plugging it into my Furutech GTX-D NCF(r) outlet using one of my Audio Sensibility Testament power cables. No serious listening was done, but first impression is that soundstage is flattened, imaging is less distinct (may be in my head), female voices are off and resolution is poor. Some of my LPs are almost unlistenable. Oh well, looks like it’ll need break-in.

 

I’ve read that class D amps can take upwards of 800 hours to settle in. When I was trying out the D-Sonic (latest Pascal module, custom input stage) I noticed it can go from garbage to decent one day to the next. Hopefully the Crown will be able to show me it’s true performance soon.

 

The Onkyo coming in is used so hopefully it’s already fully run in. Since the Onkyo is an integrated and single-ended I can run it while letting the Crown burn in at the same time.

[GUTB]

I must be going senile....early onset dementia or something. I thought I had bought a used Onkyo but I had actually ordered a used NAD 316BEE. It has a thin little built-in power cord...oh boy...can’t believe I’m plugging something like this into my system...no, that’s not right, biases gone...

[psjug]

I don't know the 316BEE but I am assuming the cord is 18AWG?  Maybe a little disappointing that you can't swap it out (I think all the other NAD BEE amps use detachable).  But still 18AWG is probably OK for a 40WPC amp don't you think?  This is the bottom of the BEE line so maybe the cord is an an example of a corner being cut.  If you really want to give a somewhat fair test against high end it seems your contender should be at least halfway up this "consumer" product line.

 

But anyway I am interested to see you press on with this.

[GUTB]

Okay guys. A few albums for your consideration:

 

 

Available on Tidal. Refer to the track "Nobil onda". What does her voice sound like? During her peaks would you describe it as piercing, sibilant, smooth, metallic, or other? Does it seem recessed or forward? At the end of each track you should be able to hear a metronome-like "tick-tick-tick" — how audible is that sound?

 

 

Available on Tidal. This is a Sheffield Lab LP that I own and is the better version, however the 44.1 version on Tidal is decent. Would you describe Larry McNeeley’s vocals as nasal and/or metallic?

 

One of my reference albums. Refer to Pops Hoedown. Do you get a sense of the stage during the first part? Do any of the loud dynamics during the ring-around-posey and following section have a startling force to them?

 

 

[psjug]

There are a couple B&K power amplifiers for sale on ebay for a good buy-it-now price.  I don't know anything about these but reviews are  good.  They look very business-like inside.