Massdrop Focal "Elex"

[kumakuma]

6 minutes ago, dalethorn said:

 

I found this by google in about 5 seconds.  You can find a lot more.  The primary reason churches go for trackers isn't the nitpicky aspects of fingering and stop-pulling - it's the sound.

 

That said of course, I suppose someone could build a hybrid organ so as to get the worst features of both.  Fortunately that isn't the rule.

 

http://www.savetheorgan.org/tracker.htm

 

Thanks, Dale.

 

I also found this interesting thread about the differences between the different types of organs:

 

https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/9610/understanding-the-four-types-of-pipe-organs/p1

 

 

[dalethorn]

Here's another article that illustrates the basics of different designs, discusses historic and modern designs, recent trends, etc. 

 

I like to think of organ design as ranging from a more-or-less pure acoustic instrument (wind, horn, ....) to something highly controlled by electronics that has a much smoother tone.

 

http://www.enchamade.com/hendricksonorgan/wb/pages/articles/windpressures.php

 

And that to me is the key (no pun intended) in classic tracker design - as E. Power Biggs often explained - to get a more authentic tone.

[dalethorn]

A little adendum - it's been about 40 years since I regularly attended organ recitals at the church on 25th street in Cleveland, and today it's hit or miss for me.  A good starter on "classic" tracker design as played by Biggs is the recording of the Flentrop organ at Harvard U.  That would be ca. 1960-61, a Bach classics CD, now sold by Sony.  A great second for Bach fans is (was) E. Power Biggs Plays Bach at the Thomaskirche (ca. 1970), but that CD is under a different title now.

 

In the Flentrop recording, you can really hear the difference this type of organ makes.

[jbparrish]

Dale, your reference to www.enchamade.com is no longer supported, FYI. The domain name expired 12/19.

[dalethorn]

3 hours ago, jbparrish said:

Dale, your reference to www.enchamade.com is no longer supported, FYI. The domain name expired 12/19.

 

Amazing!  It's like the Langoliers eating up the past right behind me.

[crenca]

Price is down to $700 ($699) as of today for the two days left on the drop.

 

Does anyone have any confidence that this is something more than a Elear with Clear pads?  I know Massdrop publishes a FR curve, but is it really all that different from an Elear given the variability of measurement rigs?  How reliable are Massdrop published curves?

[AMR/iFi audio]

16 minutes ago, crenca said:

Price is down to $700 ($699) as of today for the two days left on the drop.

 

This looks like a nice offer for sure.

[dalethorn]

Assuming it comes with only the Massdrop pads, if I could buy the original or Utopia pads for less than $100 extra, I'd call it a good deal.

[crenca]

2 hours ago, dalethorn said:

Assuming it comes with only the Massdrop pads, if I could buy the original or Utopia pads for less than $100 extra, I'd call it a good deal.

 

It's a deal I do believe.  Thing is, I already have an Elear and really want a Clear (The Utopia is really nice but I have a mental value block that kicks in for headphones above $2k).  However, if this Elex is truly Clear like (as alleged), then I hate to miss it...I probably am anyways...

[buonassi]

On 12/16/2017 at 1:41 PM, crenca said:

Also, "head-fi TV" confirmed that these are Elear's with Clear pads (and different paint scheme, etc.).

 

 

On 12/16/2017 at 4:48 PM, Mshenay said:

 

I doubt it's just a pad swapped Elear, the THD measurements are pretty different, 

 

yes, same driver diaphram, different impedances, different voice coil too - one is wound and formerless while the other is solid copper.  Can't remember which is which tho. 

 

On 12/16/2017 at 5:50 PM, crenca said:

 

I have to admit I am perhaps not you typical HP enthusiast in that I don't think HP's really do "soundstage and imaging" at all.  Stereo simply does not work as designed with he speakers right next to your ears on either side of your head.  This is not to say that the effect is totally lost, but it mostly is and what is left is not right.  Some modern electronic music takes advantage of the skewed "imaging" of HP's and sounds off when played over a two channel...

 

Bingo....headphones are technically binaural while speakers are stereo.  You can emulate more of a speaker type of "delivery" by using crossfeed, which preserves the separation of high frequencies while summing the low frequencies into mono.  Really good algorithms like Goodhertz's CanOpener Studio also do spectral delay modeling  which help with stage.  Still no speaker system, but much more enjoyable for longer listening as well as more slightly out of head experience.  Though I've never heard it in front of me, it does quite well pulling it further out above and sideways to your head.  Very worth the expense as it's processing is done with top shelf sonics.  

 

Now, what can I add about organs?  Thankfully, nothing. 

[buonassi]

Oh, and the @AMR/iFi audio products have some sort of soundstage expander they can comment on.  I haven't heard it however.  

[Mshenay]

2 hours ago, buonassi said:

 

yes, same driver diaphram, different impedances, different voice coil too - one is wound and formerless while the other is solid copper.  Can't remember which is which tho. 

 

That makes sense, same driver but different dampening, different voice coils and a difference in impedance. I tend to forget the voice coil is just as important as the driver it self. An likely the dampening and Voice Coiling scheme +Pads from the Clear may have been adapted for use with the Elear driver, resulting in what looks very much like a mix of the two!

 

Very well put, plus that final $699 price was killer. Now we just need some ears on a pair!

[dalethorn]

8 hours ago, buonassi said:

Bingo....headphones are technically binaural while speakers are stereo.  You can emulate more of a speaker type of "delivery" by using crossfeed, which preserves the separation of high frequencies while summing the low frequencies into mono.  Really good algorithms like Goodhertz's CanOpener Studio also do spectral delay modeling  which help with stage.  Still no speaker system, but much more enjoyable for longer listening as well as more slightly out of head experience.  Though I've never heard it in front of me, it does quite well pulling it further out above and sideways to your head.  Very worth the expense as it's processing is done with top shelf sonics.  

 

I've listened to speakers for 30 years, headphones for 40.  None of the above is absolutely true, even if there are some useful tips there.

 

The biggest problem with headphones by far is their ragged frequency response, which makes the sound unnatural and (what few users realize) damages the soundstage.

 

A far better fix for "headphone sound" is to use a parametric equalizer to achieve a natural sound, rather than just "mix and smear" with crossfeed.

[pkane2001]

4 hours ago, dalethorn said:

 

I've listened to speakers for 30 years, headphones for 40.  None of the above is absolutely true, even if there are some useful tips there.

 

The biggest problem with headphones by far is their ragged frequency response, which makes the sound unnatural and (what few users realize) damages the soundstage.

 

A far better fix for "headphone sound" is to use a parametric equalizer to achieve a natural sound, rather than just "mix and smear" with crossfeed.

I agree with you, but EQ with crosfeed is even better, IME.

[Ben2300]

5 hours ago, dalethorn said:

 

I've listened to speakers for 30 years, headphones for 40.  None of the above is absolutely true, even if there are some useful tips there.

 

The biggest problem with headphones by far is their ragged frequency response, which makes the sound unnatural and (what few users realize) damages the soundstage.

 

A far better fix for "headphone sound" is to use a parametric equalizer to achieve a natural sound, rather than just "mix and smear" with crossfeed.

I totally agree with you.

[dalethorn]

1 hour ago, pkane2001 said:

I agree with you, but EQ with crosfeed is even better, IME.

 

A few years ago I got a Dirac app made for Apple's Earpods (the greatly improved earbud), and it did wonders for those buds.  I've heard a few stirrings about Dirac recently, but only for room treatments as I remember.

 

I would suggest as a proof of concept, that a maker of DSP's create an alternate music player with goodies for iOS and Android, like the Audioforge EQ app, that uses the built-in music code so all the user needs do is download the app and play the files they were playing on the standard app that comes with the phone.

 

Putting aside any considerations for non-audiophiles, it should be possible to get thousands, if not millions, of users' feedback as to the improvements they get with the new (very low cost) player app.

 

I'm not optimistic about that, only because the EQ is the most important feature for achieving a natural sound from the frequency domain, and it's also difficult to achieve without providing hundreds of default settings for different headphones.  When the EQ is missing, the crossfeed is a bust, and all you need do is look around - a billion headphone users with no satisfactory solution that doesn't require hours of work to tune the headphone themselves.

[buonassi]

6 hours ago, dalethorn said:

 

A far better fix for "headphone sound" is to use a parametric equalizer to achieve a natural sound, rather than just "mix and smear" with crossfeed.

 

Indeed! I use fab filter pro q 2 and another plugin that allows me to do controllable sine sweeps to zero in on peaks and nulls and smooth them out. It takes a few hours but after I've built an equal loudness contour , it definitely helps with the image and is much closer to the fr you'd get from speakers. The last mile is an advanced crossfeed .  I should've mentioned eq thanks.

[buonassi]

11 hours ago, dalethorn said:

 

The biggest problem with headphones by far is their ragged frequency response, which makes the sound unnatural and (what few users realize) damages the soundstage.

 

 

Yup, can't avoid the graininess with all that HF energy in a small area - creates reflections / standing waves.  As you can see in the attached pic, I have a huge peak at 8K to offset the attenuation happening by all the physics gremlins.  It seems to be much worse for planars where there is basically a sheet of film which these HFs can bounce off of.  

 

Anywho, if there is enough interest I may start a topic that covers the techniques I've learned (not all of them my own) for smoothing out headphones.  There may not be since you need a computer that can run VST or AU plugins inline with your software player.  

 

edit:  ignore the huge lowpass filter here at 18K.  This is only needed for upsampling as an anti-aliasing filter.  not really doing anything sonically for the graininess I describe.  

[pkane2001]

17 minutes ago, buonassi said:

Anywho, if there is enough interest I may start a topic that covers the techniques I've learned (not all of them my own) for smoothing out headphones.  There may not be since you need a computer that can run VST or AU plugins inline with your software player.  

 

I’d be interested in your techniques. I use HQPlayer DSP, with PEQ filters produced using REW and rePhase. I’m sure there will be some translation necessary due to  different software, but hopefully the process is not too dissimilar.

[buonassi]

8 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

I’d be interested in your techniques. I use HQPlayer DSP, with PEQ filters produced using REW and rePhase. I’m sure there will be some translation necessary due to  different software, but hopefully the process is not too dissimilar.

 

ok, I may as well start a new thread - but before I do, I'll PM you some prerequisites.  

[crenca]

38 minutes ago, buonassi said:

 

Yup, can't avoid the graininess with all that HF energy in a small area - creates reflections / standing waves.  As you can see in the attached pic, I have a huge peak at 8K to offset the attenuation happening by all the physics gremlins.  It seems to be much worse for planars where there is basically a sheet of film which these HFs can bounce off of.  

 

Anywho, if there is enough interest I may start a topic that covers the techniques I've learned (not all of them my own) for smoothing out headphones.  There may not be since you need a computer that can run VST or AU plugins inline with your software player.  

 

edit:  ignore the huge lowpass filter here at 18K.  This is only needed for upsampling as an anti-aliasing filter.  not really doing anything sonically for the graininess I describe.  

 

To ask the obvious, you're just applying EQ curves for particular models aren't you? The way you stated it seems to imply that you have some generalized techniques but if so then I don't follow you and that I would be most surprised if there are generalized frequency responses and generalized cup enclosure effects...

 

[buonassi]

22 minutes ago, crenca said:

 

To ask the obvious, you're just applying EQ curves for particular models aren't you? The way you stated it seems to imply that you have some generalized techniques but if so then I don't follow you and that I would be most surprised if there are generalized frequency responses and generalized cup enclosure effects...

 

 

Yes. These are highly individualized, custom curves that are dependent on:

• The headphone (and any mods done to it - primarily pads)
• the listener's ear anatomy and auditory system as a whole
• any DSP effects that might be in the chain along with the EQ
• the listening level (somewhat dependent, but I find the curves to scale pretty well with volume changes personally)

It requires some time, and software that can hang sonically despite the high Q values, no doubt.  But the payoff comes in the form of pleasant, very natural treble (much like speakers) with the great bass response (no room effects) that headphones deliver.

 

I've always wanted to share this with the community and I just may do that in another thread.  I think it would be well received here given it's software/computer focus.  

[buonassi]

Anyway! back to the Focal Elex.  TBH, I'm kicking myself for not jumping in on the drop.  The only thing that kept me from doing it was my childish sense of instant gratification.  I didn't like the idea of waiting until April! 

[pkane2001]

On 1/3/2018 at 9:44 PM, pkane2001 said:

 

I’d be interested in your techniques. I use HQPlayer DSP, with PEQ filters produced using REW and rePhase. I’m sure there will be some translation necessary due to  different software, but hopefully the process is not too dissimilar.

 

By the way, for those who have not tried EQ'ing their headphones, I can highly recommend it.

Here is a comparison of pre-EQ and post-EQ frequency response with my HD650. If you think the post-EQ chart is tilted, that's because it's a house curve that I prefer. It sounds better to me, no doubt due to my particular hearing and the type of music I listen to

 

 

The red line is frequency response before EQ (measured) the blue line is after EQ (also measured). Notice the lack of lower frequencies before EQ and big dips an other nastiness at the higher frequencies. The chart doesn't show that I also optimized this impulse curve for minimal phase and added crossfeed.

 

[dalethorn]

I would like to add for those who have the interest -- I EQ partly to compensate for obvious large deviations from "flat" in the frequency response, but from there my objective is NOT to bias anything for my hearing or "tastes", rather it's to achieve a natural sound just like I hear in the real world.  So whatever the quirks are in my hearing, they don't bias the EQ because my EQ'd sound is the same as what I hear live.

 

The reason I think this is so important is 1) I can hear the difference, and natural sound sounds OK to me, and 2) I believe all those other "fixes" have audiophiles chasing their tails trying to achieve something that's rarely if ever satisfactory.

 

Here's an example of a tutorial I wrote for the Audioforge equalizer.  I've got quite a bit more in various places.

 

http://dalethorn.com/Headphone_Audioforge_Eq_App_Tutorial.txt