Best USB cable to use between computer and dac?

[tarquineous]

Bob, I use a Cardas Clear USB cable that gives a decent improvement. Their Clear USB cable retails for $149.00, which I perceive as relatively inexpensive, considering the price of Ridge Street, Locus Design, and Entreq.

 

I mention those because they have given significant improvements to their customers and reviewers.

 

I do have a problem with high prices, especially over $800.00 for even a hand made exotic USB cable under 5ft. These numbers, of course, are based on my budget and knowledge of cable construction.

 

If I made 2x median income, and just sold my third house because I was tired of it, I would spend more if the sonic results justified.

 

For the difference between Generic, Belkin, and Russ Andrews, I believe I could hear a difference, but probably a dud when it comes to a boost in sound quality.

 

I personally would rather not spend the time and money, unless a cable has gone through listening tests with comparisons to competition and generic cables, at this stage.

 

On one end of the game, I would like to see Audiophiles get the benefit of dedicated cables, and the resultant product development that ensues, on the other end, I certainly do not like to see a curious person packing someone elses bank account, and leaving themselves short. Some cable makers are obviously engaged in the latter.

 

-Tarq

 

[Tog]

Really young Tarquin - calling a small bear an idiot - I think you will find that whatever my ramblings CA is a forum replete with gentlefolk who have amongst other things - a sense of humour - I will put this down to the fact your Roman namesake spent most of his time murdering senators than listening to music through his top of the range usbicus cable.

 

Anyway I might remind you that whilst your ears are on the side of your head mine are near the top and may well hear nuances that you cannot.

 

I accept that poorly constructed usb cables may well hinder the transport of the digital signal (much respect to Socrates7) but would posit that after a certain price/quality point has been reached the sonic differences will be negligible compared to the impact of the source and dac.

 

I can hear differences in the performance of my equipment without changing a thing even with the same recording and am willing to accept that my ears are far from objective.

 

Eloise, as ever much love from a small brown bear who is unwilling to carry so much as a water pistol.

 

Tarquinus - did your parents ever read you the story of "The Emperor's New Clothes?" ...no? ...thought not!

 

Yours, without idiocy, tog

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bluesteel]

Nelson Pass (Pass Labs) has a pretty gaged view on the importance of cables; "...It should contain at least some conductive material..."

My interpretation is that far too much money is spent on copper. With that said however, with USB 3.0 we should see further development of USB as a serious DAC interface...

 

[Tipper]

Awww, come on, dont bash the bear; he's cute and he's got a sense of humour.......

 

 

Shhh, i happen to agree with him mostly

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

Really young Tarquin - calling a small bear an idiot - I think you will find that whatever my ramblings CA is a forum replete with gentlefolk who have amongst other things - a sense of humour - I will put this down to the fact your Roman namesake spent most of his time murdering senators than listening to music through his top of the range usbicus cable.

 

ROTFL!

 

Anyway I might remind you that whilst your ears are on the side of your head mine are near the top and may well hear nuances that you cannot.

 

And ... stolen! (see my new sig!)

 

I accept that poorly constructed usb cables may well hinder the transport of the digital signal (much respect to Socrates7) but would posit that after a certain price/quality point has been reached the sonic differences will be negligible compared to the impact of the source and dac.

 

Not that I deserve the nod, but thanks. LOL.

 

That said, this is spot on. And I fear that that "certain ... point" is unfortunately rather high in commercial cables. My own tests showed a reliable difference between a $500 SRT USB cable and a $20 Belkin, but no reliable difference at all between any USB cable under $500. With one exception -- the one hand-made by Pat at ART, a cable without any power leg -- which was easily the equal of all those uber cables.

 

All that said, we're still talking about minor differences, so much so that this is what makes it really difficult to say whether or not Pat's cable is actually better than the SRT. I simply can't hear a difference. Which is quite a testament to Pat (and equally, a condemnation of RSAD, SRT & Locus).

 

I can hear differences in the performance of my equipment without changing a thing even with the same recording and am willing to accept that my ears are far from objective.

 

A remarkable admission! The Emperor! He's NAKED! Eeeeek! Run away! Run away!

 

;-)

 

This happens to me all the time. Some days, I'm totally blown away by the sound of my system. Some days, not so much. What changed? That is, aside from the date? I can speculate all I like -- power grid usage or "grunge", humidity levels, sunspot activity -- but the common denominator in all these so-called listening tests is ... yours truly. Does tend to make be go: "hmmmmm!" Perhaps what we really need is to establish a physical and psychological baseline prior to all testing, and skew the results accordingly ....

 

[barrows]

"This happens to me all the time. Some days, I'm totally blown away by the sound of my system. Some days, not so much. What changed? That is, aside from the date? I can speculate all I like -- power grid usage or "grunge", humidity levels, sunspot activity -- but the common denominator in all these so-called listening tests is ... yours truly. Does tend to make be go: "hmmmmm!" Perhaps what we really need is to establish a physical and psychological baseline prior to all testing, and skew the results accordingly ...."

 

Said Scott. I would accept that all the things you mention can result in differences in how we perceive the sound of our systems at different times. It makes sense to try and neutralize as many of these factors as possible-good power conditioning/regeneration/cabling can nearly eliminate the mains as a source of variation for most listening locations (except with really, really bad AC conditions). Humidity and room temperature will make differences, sunspots...hmm, well anything is possible, and they do mess with communications so... Certainly local RFI pollution can make a difference, from ones own house, or perhaps neighbors in an attached dwelling.

But the human element, that is indeed variable. I find being reasonably well rested, with low stress levels, helps a lot with listening tests (I am referring to times when one is trying to evaluate a possible component choice, not general listening for pleasure).

All of these observations point to the idea that longer term auditioning is more likely to result in an accurate evaluation of any piece of gear, as over a longer term, one will listen in a variety of "states", and this variety will tend to average out anomolies.

 

[tarquineous]

Very well put, Socrates7.

 

The namesake could well have been much too early in addressing Senators and the like. They also should have went about it in a non fascist-totalitarian manner.

 

And Little Bear would have been in deep trouble if he couldn't tell the difference between the Emperor's voice and the average citizen !

 

Going forward approx. 2410 years, we have actually aquired more connection to the Roman predecessors in the way of music and law ; (The Greeks).

 

Thanks for giving us the tip on the ART usb cable. That may stifle the game of RSAD and Locus. The SRT is one I was thinking of trying. I have and like their Powercell, but did not care much for their earlier pre-Tesla cables. I could always hear the effect of silver in them.

 

Speaking of silver, I have tried SPDiF cables with silver and silver plated copper, and did not like them as much as the copper cables. This is why I chose the Cardas as my first specialty USB cable. A little off topic, but I do prefer silver powercords on video screens, but tend to keep it out of the Audio circuitry, except in certain cases.

 

I can research, but does the ART usb cable use copper ? And what do you use to power it if it has no power conductor?

 

Keep us posted about that cable, please.

 

Tarq

 

[ar-t]

The Legato contains its own power supply. Simple, isn't it? And, no............you can not buy a cable. Only is supplied with the purchase of said USB-SPDIF thingie.

 

 

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

Well, maybe, but I suspect RSAD will be just fine regardless of how well or not their USB cables do. Their product lineup is rather large.

 

As for Locus, well, those are some very smart folks and the care & quality they put into their products is totally evident from 30 feet away. Truly nice kit. My own feelings about the empirical nature of the contributions made by such care with cables are almost beside the point.

 

As for USB, it'll probably be no surprise to you that many vendors implement a chipset (Pat can probably tell you which) that requires a power-leg from the sending side in order to power the chipset itself. As he just mentioned, the ART Legato does not require this and as such, is able to use a cable that eliminates the leg entirely -- thus keeping that "noise" far away from the signaling. It is my theory that this power-leg is what degrades USB transmissions, not copper/silver/unobtanium or litz, solid-core, or whatever.

 

My further suspicion is that the typical physical parameters obtain with USB as with any interconnect -- you need a well-made cable with good quality connections, some conductive material, and as low a capacitance as you can achieve. Other than that, it's all in how the thing get's wired together. And that's it.

 

Note that this is just my conjecture and all standard caveats apply.

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

"But the human element, that is indeed variable. I find being reasonably well rested, with low stress levels, helps a lot with listening tests (I am referring to times when one is trying to evaluate a possible component choice, not general listening for pleasure).

All of these observations point to the idea that longer term auditioning is more likely to result in an accurate evaluation of any piece of gear, as over a longer term, one will listen in a variety of "states", and this variety will tend to average out anomolies."

 

Didn't anyone tell you it's impolite to point out inconsistencies in argumentation? Damn you! ;-)

 

Yes, Barrows, I think you're right about the long term listening, if for this reason alone. And yes, this is contrary to what I've said in the past. But now we've shifted the problem of audio memory back to the fore -- how can we be sure what "a" sounded like after listening to "b" for an extended period of time, audio memory being what it is (ie, crappy)?

 

[barrows]

For sure, memory plays a role. But I do not entirely agree with the point of view that auditory memory is so fallible. Much of the research may be based on lay people, rather than experienced/practiced listeners. Some of these factors may be explained by the distinction of something that sounds clearly better with something that sounds different.

I can certainly remember systems I have heard that sounded really good, or really bad, and I can remember some of the qualities which stood out on really impressive systems-now to rank these differences by memory is difficult in some cases.

In any case, I feel longer term listening gives a clearer view of what things sound like. You cannot be "sure" every time, but over multiple listening tests, you are more likely to come to a right conclusion.

 

[BobH]

ought to do it!

 

I've about given up on trying to accurately evaluate anything, these days. If a manufacturer can't make a competent component in this day and age, they will very quickly be found out. Rubbish phone aerials anyone?

 

There is now only one criteria I use and that is - do I like my system more with it there than without it. It's about enjoyment rather than evaluation and it has led to some interesting new directions. The main one of which is that one system is unlikely to do it for an eclectic music collection. Natalie Merchant sounds marvellous through my sig system. Led Zep much less so. Led Zep through my son's Tannoys? now you're talking!

 

And for this I thank computer audio, rather than dissecting it to death in search of problems. With the audio in the digital domain, there is little to think about until it hits analogue again - yes, there will be minor differences between DACs, miniscule differences between software players and sub-atomic differences between USB cables but they pale into total insignificance when compared to the differences between speakers!

 

Rejoice in the ease of use, say I, stop obsessing about the ridiculous and put your money and energy into multiple systems!

 

(Well, that ought to please the dealers, if not the OCD brigade!)

 

 

[bluesteel]

Agree with Bob.- should point out though that "it hits analogue again" in the DAC.

 

The first conversion is in the HDD where mechanical converts to electrical (That is why SSD sounds better).

 

Agree with the speaker part too; that's were electrical "hits" mechanics to vibrate the air.

 

The digital part is about BER (Bit Error Rate) - (caused by noise - can be spotlight, bad bit shape, or jitter).

 

A good user interface on the CA is a must.

 

Cables does not really affect any of these (unless it is bad cable, very long cable (noise) or bad connections)

 

I have had my fair share of Kable though - expensive too, but cannot hear any difference. (The 3033 looked very impressive, like two anacondas in my living room).

 

In the end, I am just very happy to lean back and enjoy...

 

[tarquineous]

I agree that speakers are a bigger factor in overall sound than a cable or an internal part, for that matter. We tend to focus in and get myopic at times.

 

Getting excellent speakers is great. But then what happens?

 

… You notice the bass could be a little tighter, or the detail a little too prominant, or the soundstage too narrow. So the next thing you do is change the speaker cables to the ones highly recommended by the dealer, or Audiophile buddy.

 

Then, those great speakers may work a lot better with a certain type of amplifier.

 

Once you get those right to your satisfaction, its back to the DAC or music server, and the damn cables again !

 

.....But its fun and we love it.

 

[BobH]

Yes, but what you have just described is not a love of music but a love of kit! That is a trap we can fall into, not a goal to be attained!!

 

[tarquineous]

I understand what you're saying with love of kit.

 

But it's not love of kit rather than music. It's love of kit and music !

 

That's what makes the finest audio systems, and keeps the industry alive and well.

 

Enjoy it all !

 

-Tarq

 

[4est]

Is not this site sort of all about kit for reproducing music?

 

[barrows]

the be all and end all is a love of music. Following complex interwoven musical lines, and the nuances of how a musician plays their instrument, and the feeling contained in those nuances, is much easier with a very good system.

To that end end I will try whatever it takes (within certain budgetary and space constraints) to get me "there".

I would agree with the importance of speakers, but it is quite incredible the performance that can be wrought from even moderate speakers. For many years I had a merely adequate pair of B & W 6 series floorstanders, they were OK. But it did surprise me how much resolution they were capable of upon upgrading my electronics, and even just power cables. Once one has speakers they are happy with, it makes sense to try and get the most out of them with the choices available in electronics/cables.

Also: I would suggest re-thinking the idea that electronics, and electrical signals are not mechanical. The reality is that electrical signals result from the movement of electrons, and electrons are particles, with mass, and they are subject to distortions related to the fact that they are particles. Assuming that the electrical signal is somehow immune to mechanically induced distortions is an over simplification.

 

[Tipper]

Nah, not wearing that one Mr barrows Sir You were putting up a sterling fight in your corner until you got to the distorting electron bit. From what I remember from my Physics at Uni there is no evidence that electrons distort. You can smash them, bounce them about, get them to sit in pretty patterns demonstrating their charge and energy levels but distortion………nah, not having it. Evidence please :-)

 

[barrows]

Never suggested that electrons themselves distort: just that they have mass, and are mechanical in nature, if one is willing to think small. But, how electrons describe the music waveform does get distorted by the way they move through circuitry (or how the waveform propagates, as a result of electron movement). Just sending a signal through a piece of wire there is loss-because electrons are physical things.

 

 

[jkeny]

AFAIR electrons are treated as both wave & particle but to say that they are mechanical in nature & therefore subject to distortion is itself a gross distortion of physics. Sorry, but it really is pseudo science & snakeoil territory.

 

[tarquineous]

I agree with Barrow's view on upgrading audio systems.

 

Regarding the electrons, there is a lot more to learn, but they are described in Chemistry as " Dual nature". Their mass is hardly anything, but they do have mass, probably just because they exist. But we're dealing with a mass so small, that they don't behave as tangible objects that are influenced by gravity and inertia. If they were, they would drop of of wires towards the earth, and fly off the corners of bent wire.

 

How does this apply to wires and audio equipment? I don't have all the answers, but electron flow apparently creates magnetic lines of flux. The flux lines will induce current into nearby metals, if they are moving, and will not if they are still.

 

Dielectrics (insulators) are another story. If there is a voltage difference on either side of the dielectric, the electron orbitals of the dielectric's atoms will elongate away from the side of higher voltage. These elongated orbitals will spring back when the voltage difference is changed or stopped. The force of these springing back can move electrons, thus a small current flow, usually undesirable, in nearby conductors.

 

I think these factors and others, give credibility to better cable design. And it helps to explain why the ART usb cable has the power wire removed from the cable.

 

[ar-t]

"And it helps to explain why the ART usb cable has the power wire removed from the cable."

 

No, it doesn't! It has to do with a proper balanced cable and "longitudinal balance", as they say in the telephone business. Good grief.

 

[Tog]

No really..... electrons bending - elongated orbitals? - you couldn't make that sort of thing up ....

 

Meanwhile ....back to the real world - transmitting 1s and 0s down a cable designed to replace the serial and parallel ports of a computer. The digital data is either transmitted or it isn't - I don't think electron flow is going to make a lot of difference - how the dac decodes the electrons ..well that is a different story.

 

or better still use firewire or ethernet ...

 

Cabling will have an impact on the analogue side but once you are using good quality well shielded examples with decent connectors ...the law of diminishing returns kicks in ...and then it is up to you, your ears and your wallet!

 

Friends who are electrical engineer bears find this obsession with digital cabling baffling ... even more baffling than spending vast sums on esoteric speaker cables ...

 

If you like the sound ..fantastic but don't claim that there is a vast amount of scientific proof out there ....there isn't.

 

I wish I thought of bent electrons ...priceless...

 

yours, still laughing, tog

 

PS having the usb cable drawing power at the same time is unlikely to help your dac do a decent job.

 

[barrows]

"Cabling will have an impact on the analogue side..."

 

Digital signal transmission on a cable is an analog signal: 1s and 0s are not being transmitted by the cable, an analog waveform is being transmitted, which is a representation of 1s and 0s. Because the analog waveform is subject to analog type of distortions, problems can occur.

 

"how the dac decodes the electrons ..well that is a different story."

 

Yup, I think you have hit the nail on the head here. The ability of the digital receiver to properly decode the analog waveform (representing the 1s and 0s) is likely what matters. The receiver's ability to properly decode the incoming signal may be compromised by analog distortions of the waveform representing the digital signal, in a worse case scenario this could result in data errors: in poorly implemented USB audio we sometimes hear dropouts, clicks, or pops.

Just speculating (because I hear obvious differences in SQ with different USB cables) here a little further: perhaps the cleaner analog waveform (representing the digital signal) is, the easier the job of the digital receiver becomes, and the less RFI and/or power supply fluctuation occurs (which could affect the performance of the rest of the DAC).