Best USB cable to use between computer and dac?

[Part-Time Audiophile]

First, let me say that I was quite content to wallow about in my own ignorance until you pukes dumped several hundred gallons of crystal clean spring water on me. You can call this "clean" if you must, but personally, I call this "broke".

 

First offense was that dastardly Alpha DAC. I recall a day not very long ago when I was secure in my smug superiority, with my hot-rodded PS Audio DAC taking on all comers. Lavry? Ha! Ayre? Double-ha! Alpha? Ha ... err ... crap! Double-crap!

 

Of course, I had to change along the way, too, which anyone will tell you is a miserable experience, fraught with disillusionment, pain, and despair. In short, it sucks rocks. Why oh why did I ever log on? Damn my eyes!

 

The Day Everything Went to Hell, I went to a local dealer who was disgustingly joyous in his revelatory glee. He had this spiffy DAC you see, something out of that Libertine snake-den called "Berkeley" that I just had to hear. Just thinking of him saying it makes me still want to smash that smirk right off his face. "Fine," says I, "but beware -- I bringeth the mighty DAC killer with me, my David to your Goliath, and we all know how that Righteous Tale ended!" Smirky-smirkface simply laughed, damn his hide.

 

The battlefield: KEF 201/2 speakers, Plinius SA-Reference amp, and SRT cabling everywhere. In went my Mighty DAC Killer, and lo, the sound, it was GOOD. Brilliant highs. Seductive mids. Joyously deep bass. All was Right With The World! I laughed disdainfully as the dealer hooked his entrant into this already-finished race, sat back, and hit play.

 

And lo, the sound, it was Also Good! Brilliant highs. Seductive mids. Joyously deep bass. "Ah HA! Another victory for the Mighty DAC Killer!", said I. "I can have everything you have, for 1/5th the cost! Ha ha! My David is victorious!"

 

"But no, wait!" says he. "Listen again -- this time, to the bass alone."

 

And so we did, for I had to admit, I was beginning to think the thug was crazed and delirious and quite in need of medical assistance, and for that, I felt bad enough to humor him. So, at the risk of having David dance upon Goliath's mouldering carcass, listen again we did.

 

And then I heard it ... and shaking my head, I demanded we swap again. And again! And damn-it-all, a third time we did swap it before I had to concede the issue. Entirely. The Alpha was in fact the superior DAC in all ways, and the Mighty DAC Killer was dethroned. David ... dead? Well, he was kind of a twerp, but still.

 

And so you must ask: why? What was it that I heard that so totally revised my opinion, that so very thoroughly upset my world view and landed me in this Region of Extreme Poverty? What was the blow that felled Mighty David?

 

Clean bass. I had never heard it before, I suppose you could say. When a bass note, plucked off an upright, suddenly pops into existence, vibrates for a time, and is then gently lost to memory. That one clean note, repeated many, many times throughout the song he played, was the shining example that caused me to learn a new term: "muddy bass." My dearly beloved PS Audio DAC had muddy bass.

 

[sigh.]

 

So, now I am made a pauper, but never again will I be without this DAC. I freakin' love it. And my Plinius pre is no longer in the system until I can find a suitable replacement.

 

But to the point! Yes, the point.

 

I have an SRT USB cable, a Tesla Tricon, also on loan from Smirky-Smirkerstein, that know-it-all dealer of mine. And yes, it is one of those with the separate power/ground leg yet contained in a single sheath. I've been running it in-system for a week to "break it in" to my system, whatever that means, but the designer was quite insistent upon this, so fine, I in my beaten state, decided to humor him. Humility, I believe this feeling is called, but I'm not sure as it is quite alien to me. Anyway, today, I yanked it while feeling spiteful, and I'm sure all the magic leaked out of it into the aether as a result of this inglorious treatment, but I was curious to see what the Wireworld UV would sound like in its stead. As you can tell, I'm all about the underdog thing, so if a $50 cable can do as well (or nearly as well) as a $500 cable, hallelujah!

 

So, swap I did. And ... it was like the David v Goliath -- err, PS Audio v Berkeley -- fight all over again. And as any betting man would expect, Goliath stomped David flatter than the lichen on the rocks he was standing on. Damn it! Damn it all to HELL!

 

The previous experience of the PS Audio/Berkeley trial was very instructive here. While it seems that the WW UV does have "more" bass, that bass, when compared a/b to the SRT, is muddier, plain and simple. The difference is not night and day, and far less than the difference between the PS Audio and the Berkeley, but its discernible, and as you'd probably expect, that difference is significantly more noticeable with higher volumes. If you only play at low volumes, and through speakers that don't have terrifically low bass output, I suspect you'd never notice the difference between these cables. But the "fact of the matter" (a phrase I do not use lightly) is that there is a difference and believe me, I am not happy about it.

 

[agentsmith]

http://forums.naim-audio.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/8772903417/m/6472966827?r=1002959827#1002959827

 

A very "direct" way of connecting a DAC to your computer.

 

http://forums.naim-audio.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/8772903417/m/6472966827?r=1002959827#1002959827

 

 

[JDFlood]

Do not dispare, there are many folks that are new to audiophilia. Many folks must go through the epiphany that maybe just thinking about something and forming a opinion is not the best way to draw a conclusion. Discussions like these have gone on in the high-end audio world for decades. But the results are obvious through experiment. I have tested dozens of wires, cables, interconnects,m etc over the years and long ago stopped worring about the logic. I just listen. My most amazing experience was when I put in a set of $2,000 interconnects between my CD-player and preamp. My reaction was my literally my jaw dropped. It was like someone took away my player and substituted for much, much better one. I have had dozens of experiences like that, although usually not so obvious and some not to the positive.

 

Anyway, each person here earns or discredits ones self in their own post. They support suppositions or make "religious statements"... statements about faith (opinions without evidence) in their evidenceless conclusions.

 

Listen to those who offer substatiated opinions based on experience and ignor the rest.

 

I'm looking foward to replace my USB cable when I feel I know were the sweet spot is in the range of options. Half of this chain of posts is useful to that end. JD

 

 

 

[smallp]

There are lots of discussion here regarding audiophile USB cable with better material and construct. I'm more interested in cable which pass digital audio signal but not noise from PC. Here is what I recently read and it makes more sense to me than yet another USB cable with better material & construct.

 

http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/tod2_usb_lead_e.html

 

[timztunz]

Well said JD.....

 

[Tog]

Blimey JD ....so lets recap forget the science... do your own experiments, ignore any other opinions because they are just the rantings of the emotionally immature. OK I'll give it a whirl....

 

Firstly lets test the idea that I can disappear ...yes I realise there will be some idiots who suggest that scientifically its impossible but since I've just paid a guy in Stuttgart $2000 for his new "Desperato" (patent pending) cloak made from the very purest platinum bonded silver thread, here we go anyway ....

 

So step 1: put cloak over head,

 

Step 2: close your eyes (pointless really but the man from Germany says it helps ....)

 

Step 3: ...Nothing .... fantastic it works ...since I can't see anything ...there can't be anything there .. ergo since I remember paying a small fortune to someone clever from Stuttgart... so it must follow that the world is still there and only I have disappeared .... crikey

 

Result.

 

Ps "Deperato" also do a fantastic USB cable find them at www.totallydesperato.com

 

Yours, totally gone, tog

 

macbook pro > Desperato 320 USB > Insanium monoblocks > bankruptcy.

 

 

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

I just snorted coffee all over my keyboard. ROFLMFAO. Nicely done, Tog.

 

By the way, I totally want to try out those monoblocks you've got.

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

Now that's interesting!

 

http://www.odysseyaudiohk.com/eng/tod2.htm

 

~$300 US. Very interesting.

 

[JDFlood]

Tog,

 

I was a practicing scientist for ten years before returning for graduate school. Science only presents a superficial coverage of complex systems, not a complete one. High-end audio systems are complex systems. Also each person's system is a different system to the extent it contains different components. Then there is what characteristics each persons value in their system; determining which components of musicality and sound reproduction they value. Also, their value of money. Many of the variables in high-end audio are non-linear, meaning a small difference in the variable result in a large change in the result. Most of science is still describing linear variables. As a consequence science can only be used a rough guidelines and the final test needs to be human beings listening. Most arguments in the field saying, "I understand this one variable and therefore Y, can or can't result" are doomed to failure. You need to hear from people with real experiences, some understanding of science never hurts. But people posting categorical proclamations based on a feeling of what you think is right, without observation are just a waste of space.

 

Btw, when I'm in Stuttgart, I stay across from the Mercedes Benz headquarters. Where is your cloak maker's shop? Maybe I'll look him up next time I'm there. JD

 

 

[barrows]

with Wireworld's Starlight USB. It has exceeded the performance of some much more expensive cables in my experience-certainly worth trying at its (reasonable) price.

We know very little about measuring the performance of audio systems. This does not mean that measurements do not matter, just that presently audio systems are performing beyond our ability to measure-someday we may know what to measure, and how to measure it, but right now the human ear/brain is the best tool for measuring the performance of audio systems. How convenient! We just need to train ourselves to listen, and we already have the necessary "hardware" to evaluate our system's/components audio performance.

 

[Tog]

hang on here comes the Science bit

 

When I close my eyes - the world disappears - science can prove that it is still there but subjectively it doesn't since I can't see it and I would need to apply the rational parts of my small furry brain to understand it is all still there.... the reptile parts of my mammalian cortex are still telling me that the world has been stolen and that only the purchase of a $2000 USB cable from the man in the white coat will bring it back safely.

 

JD I'm sure your grasp of science is far better than a small brown bear's limited experience but I don't think it is the swanky USB cable that is improving the sound.

 

The sound of my system changes constantly, depending on my mood, the weather (I kid you not) and how much money I have just spent on it. It may be feedback from the mains, the electro mechanical influences of moisture in the air or the impact of substantial quantities of Chablis but since science can't really explain why your USB cable affects things it shouldn't, I'm fairly certain your brain can. If spending ludicrous amounts on a cable makes you happy and your brain notices a difference - fab but that doesn't mean it makes any scientific sense at all.

 

I know that science tells me that Kylie can't really sing but my brain tells me it doesn't matter.

 

PS would that be Werk Mercedesstrabe? my guy, Herr Potter, is in Neckarstrabe.

 

PPS what is a "real experience" and do you need drugs?

 

Yours, still listening to Kylie, tog

 

 

[JDFlood]

Smallp,

 

While I don't like the idea of plugging more stuff in. If the PC creates such a ruckus, perhaps some device to intercept is the answer. Thankf for the reference. JD

 

[Tog]

Or you could move the whole PC (Mac if you have any sense of the aesthetic at all) into a completely different house - perhaps next door.

 

Even better I have just acquired distribution rights to the new Desperato Boloxa 2 and I have to say (largely because I'm selling them) my jaw simply dropped the first time I used one. Simply place the Boloxa 2 over the PC or Mac and hey presto. Your PC simply disappears - magic.

 

Available in Rosewood, Teak or Cardboard. $2000 Go straight to www.youknowitsboloxa.com

 

 

Yours, distributer of Boloxa, tog

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

I have 5 of these, and they're the single greatest enhancements to my a/v system that I've been lucky enough to make. On a side note, they also whiten teeth.

 

[barrows]

Love your posts, keep it up!

RE DACs rejecting jitter: most, if not all, DACs sound better when presented a low jitter data stream. Example: DACs like the Benchmark, bel canto, and PS Audio DL-III, all use asynchronus sample rate converters to reject jitter. Measurements show that the ASRC are very effective in these DACs at reducing the incoming jitter, but users all still report that these DACs sound different with different transports and cables. I have heard digital engineers speculate that although the measured jitter at the output of the DAC is low, the incoming jitter is likely just being turned into a type of distortion/noise that we currently do not know how to measure. Many DACs claim to be "immune" from incoming jitter, but anyone who has listen tested these DACs with high jitter sources (like toslink from a Mac, or adaptive USB with a "bad" USB cable) has found the sound to be considerably worse with the high jitter source.

Personally, I like to attach Shakti Onlines to each end of my USB cable just for piece of mind. (Despite the name, the Shakti products are scientifically proven to damp RFI by inductive coupling)

 

[ar-t]

SRCs don't really "remove" jitter. They use DSP to map it to some other domain. Usually some strange form of IM, etc. It doesn't go away, it just gets spread all over the place, but in some other place (form). The bad ones do worse. Ask Gordon about his experience with them, and duck.

 

[JDFlood]

Thanks Barrows,

 

That makes good sense. You may have mentioned this before, but what USB interconnect do you favor? If the new DAC on the way does not resolve my issue, I'll return it and switch to a asynchronous converter. I will have a decent USB by then. Thanks for your comment. JD

 

[hubsand]

. . . and some system perspective: ironically the differences between a free USB cable and a a $100 USB cable (like the Kimber or Wireworld Ultraviolet) are typically only revealed by a very expensive (revealing) system.

 

But any old half-decent system based around a well-implemented USB DAC will respond palpably to a cable like the $150 Wireworld Starlight, which I rate as the best value in USB interconnects at the moment.

 

The Locus Polestar and Ridge Audio cables are also brilliant, at the kind of price point that many resent. But in a proportionally-priced system, with high value components, they too will make a very important difference, no question.

 

[Audio_ELF]

To save arguments - would it be fair to say that SRCs are used to remove the effects of jitter.

 

As with all things in audio - some manufacturers feel using them improve their products, while others wouldn't touch with a barge pole. There is no right or wrong answer just solutions which suit different people's listening tastes.

 

Eloise

 

[Guest]

RFI/EMI and Galvanic isolation.

 

The former being the biggest concerns which is why some USB cables have ferrite rings on them. Problem is ferrite rings more often than not mess up the sound. One way to solve all of these concerns as well as reduce any adverse affect of metal wire on the transmission of data that causes jitter is to use an optical USB cable. Light traveling down a fiber optic cable does so more efficiently than electricity traveling down metal, fiber optic cables do not carry EMI/RFI and they Galvanically isolate components.

 

 

 

http://industrialcomponent.com/opticis/opm210003.html

 

[barrows]

To be clear, in my experience, asynchronus sample rate converters really sound pretty bad. Of course, I have not A/B demoed every possible implementation of an ASRC available-so there could be implementations that are not sonically damaging, but I doubt it. It is not easy for most to demo the damage done by an ASRC, but one good way to test my opinion is with the PS Audio PerfectWave DAC. This DAC features a TI ASRC, which can be bypassed (known as "native" mode in the settings menu) from the remote. In order to make this test as valid as possible one needs to run the PWD from a low jitter source (the PerfectWave Transport via I2S, or the Network Bridge when available). If one has the opportunity to listen to the difference with and without the ASRC it becomes quite clear that the ASRC is doing damage.

It is should be understood that an ASRC completely resamples every data point using interpretation, and it has to do this in real time (unlike good SRC software packages) and with, in most cases, limited processing power. I will admit, it is probably possible for a sophisticated audio developer to make a "good" ASRC, someone like dCS for instance, running proprietary code on a very powerful processor, but most DACs use off the shelf chips from TI, AD, etc. which in the testing I have heard, really damage the sound.

 

[Audio_ELF]

Barrows said... "To be clear, in my experience, asynchronus sample rate converters really sound pretty bad.

I respect that statement completely Barrows (and don't necessarily disagree), and coming from an end user is perfectly valid - though I do think you should add a (silent) "to me" onto the end of the statement when reading it. However some other end users have a contary view and DO like the sound and feel that there is an improvement using ASRC - this is a choice about listening preferences. For a manufacturer to state (or imply though their statements) that all ASRC is bad is to disparrage every other manufacturer who does use ASRC in their products which really is bad form (IMO).

 

Eloise

 

[barrows]

I think you may be under the impression that I am a manufacturer-that is not the case. I was previously employed in the audio business, but I am currently not working in audio, and I have not been working in audio, for over a year now. My posts at CA reflect my personal experiences and beliefs as an audiophile and music listener, and do not represent any manufacturer.

RE: the ASRC question, in every demo I have been part of, where a DAC has been auditioned where it was possible to truly defeat the ASRC (and this is not possible with a lot of products that include one) every listener I am aware of has noted higher performance without the ASRC-the nature of the differences were not what any listener I have been exposed to would call a sonic preference.

As noted, I have not A/B (tested in the same system, same DAC, low jitter source, with the only change being ASRC in or out) every possible ASRC out there-but I am very confident in concluding that off the shelf ASRC chips from the usual suspects (TI, AD, Crystal, etc.) All seem to produce the same type of sonic degradation.

DAC manufacturers use these chips, as they produce a lower measured jitter level (via Paul Miller/HiFi News and John Atkinson/Stereophile's testing procedures) but as Pat notes above the ASRC apparently introduces new distortion; with an SPDIF DAC, one may get better sound using an ASRC because the SPDIF data stream (and the clock recovery circuitry necessary) is usually going to produce a lot of jitter-this is likely the case of the lesser of two evils in practice.

I am a big advocate of no SPDIF, as it is an inherently flawed interface-this does not mean that all SPDIF DACs sound bad, it just means that they could sound better with a well implemented I2S, Async USB, or Async Firewire interface. Now, in an (flawed) SPDIF environment, using an ASRC may well produce better sound than just letting large levels of jitter through.

Personally, I prefer a DAC interface design that does not allow jitter to exist in the first place (like async interfaces) rather than a design that attempts to "filter" or "reject" jitter after it is created.

 

 

 

[audiozorro]

He implies when it comes to DACs many feel that the Pacific Microsonics Model Two:

1. is the most musical

2. has the best central imaging

3. is the best at representing dynamics

 

So what interface does the so-called best DAC in the world use and why aren't more manufacturers following suit?

 

P.S. - just having fun.

 

[Audio_ELF]

Barrows you're actually missing the point. You as an individual (I know you have no trade assocoiatoons now) have the right in a forum to say ASRC is bad.

 

Any manufacturer should avoid sweeping statements - we wouldn't like it if someone from Benchmark for example (who use ASRC) said in an independent forum that a DAC without ASCR can't be any good, yet we seam to be asked to accept a manufacturer who is Anti-ASRC saying the opposite - oh and (reading between and around the lines) so implies we should use their USB to SPDIF converter because then you don't need to reduce jitter as it's already low.

 

Eloise