Optane SSD as Boot drive - SQ Nirvana?

[Johnseye]

12 minutes ago, tboooe said:

New 64gb Optane model introduced.  Seems it is the same as the 800p 58gb version I just bought but rebranded as M10.

 

https://www.anandtech.com/show/12748/the-intel-optane-memory-m10-64gb-review-optane-caching-refreshed

 

How's the drive working out?

[tboooe]

13 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

How's the drive working out?

I got it installed and recognized as E:.

 

I am having lots of issues trying to figure out the best way to clone my current OS.  The issue is I am using Server 2016 in core mode so there is no user interface. I tried installing Paragon but couldnt get the user interface to run.  Any suggestions would be appreciated. I am thinking about just doing a clean install on the Optane stick and saving the fuss.

[Johnseye]

2 minutes ago, tboooe said:

I got it installed and recognized as E:.

 

I am having lots of issues trying to figure out the best way to clone my current OS.  The issue is I am using Server 2016 in core mode so there is no user interface. I tried installing Paragon but couldnt get the user interface to run.  Any suggestions would be appreciated. I am thinking about just doing a clean install on the Optane stick and saving the fuss.

 

I'd do a clean install.  Less chance for other issues.  You'll probably spend less time in the long run.

[lmitche]

26 minutes ago, tboooe said:

I got it installed and recognized as E:.

 

I am having lots of issues trying to figure out the best way to clone my current OS.  The issue is I am using Server 2016 in core mode so there is no user interface. I tried installing Paragon but couldnt get the user interface to run.  Any suggestions would be appreciated. I am thinking about just doing a clean install on the Optane stick and saving the fuss.

Boot linix boot a USB stick and DD the drive. Works here very well.

[tboooe]

1 minute ago, lmitche said:

Boot linix boot a USB stick and DD the drive. Works here very well.

thank you for that suggestion but I must admit I am over my head.  I dont know what DD the drive means.

[lmitche]

Sorry, I learned Linux, well Unix, in the 70s and forget that not everyone knows it. Here you go!  You have to boot into an elevated command prompt to do this.

 

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/disk_cloning#Cloning_an_entire_hard_disk

[tboooe]

Finally got my 800p 58gb Optane stick installed and working.  Instead of cloning my current Samsung Pro SSD, I decided to just do a clean install of Server 2016 in core mode, HQP, and Roonserver.  Even though the only thing that changed in my PC was the Optane stick, I am having some strange networking issues.  First, when i try to set a fixed IP address, I get very inconsistent performance.  Remote desktop frequently wont connect and my Roon remote wont connect with Roonserver.  Second, HQP on this PC doesnt find the NAA consistently.  

 

My impressions:

I definitely notice browsing through Roon is snappier. Album art and artist images load up more quickly as my browse Roon.  

 

In terms of sound, my initial impression after only a few hours of listening is of a blacker background, a level of quiet that allows me to hear more details of the music.  The difference is not night and day but noticeable.  

 

At the moment, the Optane stick is installed in the M.2 slot.  I am going to get the Asus card and install it the PCEIx16 slot to compare the connection through the chipset vs the cpu directly.

[tboooe]

After having the Optane drive in my system now for a few days I think i have zeroed in on the affect it has on my system.

 

First and foremost, my initial impression of the lack of background noise remains though it goes beyond this.  The one adjective I keep going back to in my mind is pristine.  The notes, the music, the voice sound like there is absolutely nothing adulterating them.  The clarity and purity of the sound is at a level my system has never had before.  

 

The second change I noticed was in soundstage depth and layering.  One complaint I've had of my system is how flat the soundstage.  The music sounds like it coming from one plane.  I was resigned to this shortcoming, believing it was caused by my small listening room.  With the Optane drive, I notice more layering of the music, front to back.  This impression is helped by the fact that voices are a bit more forward so the layering is more pronounced.  The overall impact is that there is now a dimensionality that adds to the realism and overall engagement I feel with the music.

 

Its really hard to believe that changing the OS drive from SSD to Optane would have this impact on my system.  For around $125 I would say this upgrade is definitely worth it.  Thank you to @lmitche for bringing this to my attention with this thread.

[lmitche]

Tuning the OS to play music is all about reducing non-music related activity. Your newly issued optane drive is the fastest drive in the world.  Guess what, if your computer spends less time waiting for a Windows log file to write to completion, the more time it has to make music.  You are hearing the benefits of this.

 

Enjoy! 

[tboooe]

I got such good results using an Optane drive in my HQP server PC, I am not thinking about ugrading my NAA PC to something that is also compatible with Optane.  The NAA does not need to be very powerful so I was thinking of getting one of those mini PC NUC kits.  However, the least powerful and cheapest Celeron version does not support Optane.  I have to move up to the i5 version which cost more than double.  

 

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/boards-kits/nuc/kits/nuc7i5bnh.html

 

Any thoughts on this?  Are there other small, low powered PCs that support Optane as a drive?

[lmitche]

Maybe you should try a direct USB connection to your DAC like many of us? You may be surprised.

[scan80269]

2 hours ago, tboooe said:

I got such good results using an Optane drive in my HQP server PC, I am not thinking about ugrading my NAA PC to something that is also compatible with Optane.  The NAA does not need to be very powerful so I was thinking of getting one of those mini PC NUC kits.  However, the least powerful and cheapest Celeron version does not support Optane.  I have to move up to the i5 version which cost more than double.  

 

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/boards-kits/nuc/kits/nuc7i5bnh.html

 

Any thoughts on this?  Are there other small, low powered PCs that support Optane as a drive?

Intel's NUC7i3BNH with i3-7100U processor has an M.2 2280 slot and can support Optane as SSD.  This NUC is cheaper than NUC7i5BNH.

 

 

[tboooe]

3 hours ago, lmitche said:

Maybe you should try a direct USB connection to your DAC like many of us? You may be surprised.

Thank you but I have been down that road many times in the past and I have always felt my system sounds better with a 2 pc setup.

 

1 hour ago, scan80269 said:

Intel's NUC7i3BNH with i3-7100U processor has an M.2 2280 slot and can support Optane as SSD.  This NUC is cheaper than NUC7i5BNH.

 

 

ahhhh....not sure how I missed that model.  Bad news is that its not fanless.  Good news is I can get a fanless case for it.   Going to have to seriously consider this.

[seeteeyou]

 

Interesting stuff but most likely enterprise SSDs would cost at least a few bucks per GB

 

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/samsung-z-nand-ssd-sz985,36420.html
https://www.anandtech.com/show/12580/samsung-reveals-m2-zssd
https://www.anandtech.com/show/12376/samsung-launches-zssd-sz985-up-to-800gb-of-znand
https://www.anandtech.com/show/11703/samsung-at-flash-memory-summit-96layer-vnand-mlc-znand-new-interfaces

Quote

Samsung provided an update on Z-NAND memory, their near-term solution for offering lower latency than existing flash memory. In the long run, non-flash persistent memory technologies will be required, but by modifying their existing 3D V-NAND architecture they have an SLC-based memory that offers 3µs read latencies, 15 times faster than their V-NAND flash memory (whether that's comparing against MLC or TLC V-NAND was not specified). Their first Z-NAND product, the Z-SSD SZ985, offers overall random read latencies of less than 15µs, which is 5.5 times faster than their TLC-based enterprise SSDs. Samsung also announced a second generation Z-NAND, this time based on MLC NAND instead of SLC.

 

BTW, what's the deal with the voltage of Optane drives?

 

https://communities.intel.com/thread/123853

Quote

However, voltage and other power details can be found on private documentation.

 

Plenty of M.2 to PCIe adapters out there but only 2 of them seemed to have connectors for external power, though we still wanna know what kinda voltage regulators were added

 

http://www.addonics.com/products/ad2m2s-PX4.php

Quote

When SATA power connector is attached, power to all three SSDs is auto-switched to SATA power instead of PCIe slot. Only 12V is required on either the PCIe slot or the SATA power.

 

http://www.mfactors.com/mf-dt125-1x-nvme-m-2-pcie-3-0-2x-m-2-ssd-sata-based-110mm-carrier-adapter/

Quote

3x M.2 NGFF modules power automatically from PCIe 12V slot or from optional SATA 15Pin when 15Pin cable 12V power in for high power SSDs use

 

[lmitche]

Wow CTU, nice find on the addonics card with external power supply!

 

I may have to try that. I have two Optane cards and was thinking about running in a mirror configuration, but I'm afraid the nvme signalling scheme would be lost. I am keeping an eye out for a dual nvme capable card with external power.

 

Thanks Larry

[seeteeyou]

Yeah, for now it's just hard to find what you're talking about but currently they're actually selling something else for $359

 

http://www.netstor.com.tw/product_info.aspx?PID=PID_171026055872595

http://www.storagereview.com/netstor_na611tb3_portable_nvme_enclosure_review

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/netstor-na611tb3-thunderbolt-3-nvme-portable-ssd,5359.html

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1381233-REG/dynapower_usa_netstor_na611tb3_thunderbolt_3.html

Quote

Host Interface: Thunderbolt 3 (USB-C)
Data Transfer Rate: 40Gbps
NVMe Interface: Two M.2 x4 M key (Two PCIe 3.0 x2 electrical)
NVMe Type: Supports 2242, 2260, 2280, 22110 PCIe SSD

 

For those of us who do have access to something with Thunderbolt 3, I'm just assuming that's compatible with Optane (they're only listing Intel 600p on their site but NOT 800P) and maybe that's the only way to go at the moment?

 

https://ark.intel.com/products/125296/Intel-Optane-SSD-800P-Series-58GB-M_2-80mm-PCIe-3_0-3D-Xpoint

https://ark.intel.com/products/125298/Intel-Optane-SSD-800P-Series-118GB-M_2-80mm-PCIe-3_0-3D-Xpoint

Quote

PCIe NVMe 3.0 x2

 

https://proclockers.com/reviews/memory/intel-optane-m2-2280-32gb-pcie-nvme-30-x2-memory-module-review/page/0/2

Quote

The Optane module installs in any available M.2 B, M or B+M Key socket on your system like any other M.2 drive.

 

Anyways, that's just too much money for an enclosure IMHO and let's hope that something similar could be found in the future for PCIe.

[lmitche]

I just noticed the new optanes use x2 pcie lanes not x4. Interesting. 

[rickca]

1 hour ago, lmitche said:

I just noticed the new optanes use x2 pcie lanes not x4. Interesting. 

That has always been the case.

[lmitche]

49 minutes ago, rickca said:

That has always been the case.

Rick, do you mean all m.2 optanes released to date are x2 pcie lane devices?

[rickca]

35 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Rick, do you mean all m.2 optanes released to date are x2 pcie lane devices?

The initial 16GB and 32GB M.2 Optane memory modules were x2, and the 800p is x2 as well.  The 900P is x4, but it isn't available in M.2 form factor.

[lmitche]

Thanks Rick, I missed that, not that it matters much. These things are lightening fast.

[tims]

On 20/05/2018 at 6:53 PM, seeteeyou said:

 

 

........Plenty of M.2 to PCIe adapters out there but only 2 of them seemed to have connectors for external power, though we still wanna know what kinda voltage regulators were added

 

http://www.addonics.com/products/ad2m2s-PX4.php

........

 

 

This addonics board is exactly what I'm after but don't have any spare PCLe slots left on my server/player,  Anyone know of any way I can make it work externally with external power and using spare USB ports?

 

Thanks

[lmitche]

40 minutes ago, tims said:

This addonics board is exactly what I'm after but don't have any spare PCLe slots left on my server/player,  Anyone know of any way I can make it work externally with external power and using spare USB ports?

 

Thanks

Sure, use an Adnaco fiber attached pcie extension. Not USB based, but works. The thunderbolt nvme solution described above may be cheaper.

[seeteeyou]

4 hours ago, tims said:

This addonics board is exactly what I'm after but don't have any spare PCLe slots left on my server/player,  Anyone know of any way I can make it work externally with external power and using spare USB ports?

 

We don't see both terms NVMe (e.g. Optane) and USB to appear together since no such adapters could be found at the moment, for instance these guys explicitly stated that NVMe won't work at all

 

http://www.microsatacables.com/m-2-ngff-pcie-ssd-to-usb-3-0-adapter-with-case

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-MicroStorage-MSUB7000-M-2-PCIe-to-USB-3-0/401525442694

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Boitier-aluminium-Pour-M2-PCIe-M-Key-vers-USB3-M-2-AHCI/292217162800

 

Since that kinda adapters might not be even feasible to begin with, the USB route should be out of the question.

 

Now what should be done if we weren't having enough CPU-connected PCIe slots? Adnaco is an obvious choice but their products aren't exactly affordable

 

https://adnacom.com/shop/

 

Unfortunately Startech PEX2PCIE4L only provides x1 for each slot while Optane requires x2

 

https://www.amazon.com/StarTech-Express-Expansion-Enclosure-System/dp/B002I9SK5S

https://www.amazon.com/New-Expansion-Enclosure-Startech-com-PEX2PCIE4L/dp/B005YI6DWW

 

Finally we're left with the Thunderbolt 3 route but we still have to make sure that our motherboard could work with Thunderbolt add-in cards that are occupying CPU-connected PCIe slots. Otherwise it wouldn't be worth the money.

 

I'm just assuming that $329 price tag on Amazon is correct, otherwise we'll have to pay $430 instead

 

https://www.amazon.com/Express-SEIII-Thunderbolt-Expansion-Chassis/dp/B071RWL9GR

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1338314-REG/sonnet_echo_exp_se3_t3_echo_express_se_iii_thunderbolt.html

 

Then we'll also need to get one of those Thunderbolt add-in cards that's certified for specific motherboards, Supermicro did just that for their X11 series motherboards (with latest BIOS updates) plus Asus ThunderboltEX 3

 

https://forums.servethehome.com/index.php?threads/supermicro-x11sat-f-thunderbolt-3-support.13126/

 

BTW, it's so mighty interesting to see that ALL PCIe slots are CPU-connected but Xeon boards (supporting dual-CPU setup) are REALLY expensive

 

https://www.supermicro.com/manuals/motherboard/C620/MNL-1998.pdf#page=17

 

Those add-in cards are fairly cheap

 

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813995053

https://www.amazon.com/ASUS-Expansion-Card-Motherboards-ThunderboltEX/dp/B01HDUVJ54

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1267068-REG/asus_thunderboltex_3_expansion_card.html

 

We could also give eBay a shot

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ASUS-ThunderboltEX-3/273165480975

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Asus-ThunderboltEX3-Thunderboltex3-Expansion-Card/232754854937

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ASUS-MOTHERBOARDS-THUNDERBOLTEX-3-PCI3-0-4SLOT-4K/282965913901

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ASUS-MOTHERBOARDS-THUNDERBOLTEX-3-THUNDERBOLTEX-3-PCI3-0-4SLOT-4K/253140680368

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ASUS-THUNDERBOLTEX-3-Expansion-Card-for-ASUS-Z170-and-X99-Motherboards/192282071773

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Asus-ThunderboltEX-3-USB-3-1-PCIe-for-X99-X299-Z170-Prime-Delux-Card-Only-WW3/132609089849

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ASUS-ThunderboltEX-3-PCI-Express-Expansion-Card-For-Z170-X99-RAMPAGE-V-EXTREME/282975127754

 

(Anything with built-in Thunderbolt ports might or might not go through PCH so we've gotta figure that out before dive in.)

 

Now we could tell what kinda hoops we've gotta jump through when we're getting only 16 PCIe lanes directly from the CPU, that's why the ES (engineering sample) flavor of Xeon Silver 4108 @ 85W TDP might appear to be a fairly attractive choice for LGA 3647 boards under $500

 

https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=566404586645

https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=570172577741

[rando]

I would be more concerned with saturation of PCIe lanes if every slot is filled and SATA ports were in use.  This becomes especially limiting when M.2 deadens a SATA port on the board (or in some cases removes it entirely).  I don't see a system listed in @tims profile so have no idea if his server/player is using a current high end board and chip nor how many lanes are in use currently.  

 

For instance the C236 based server/workstation system I was looking at over the weekend has 26 lanes with 6 permanently dedicated to USB3.  Of the 20 remaining every SATA, PCIe slot, Thunderbolt, and active USB3 port above the 6th subtracts from the available number of lanes.  This board happened to have both an x4 M.2 SSD (Optane) only slot that was mounted on this board in place of a SATA input and Thunderbolt.