computer audiophile on the cheap Class D amplifiers, can a chip sound as good as a regular amplifier?

[Silly goose]

I've compared a very good Hypex Ncore NC-500 based amp with a budget TI TDA3251 implementation, and to be completely honest, other than lower power, it was at least as good. This is why I know for certainly it's only a matter of time before class A, and AB amps die off. By 2025 an amp the size of today's smartphone will put amps like the big Pass unit's to shame. 

[Ralf11]

1 hour ago, Silly goose said:

Try listening to a good class D amp before making this statement. It blows my mind how audiophiles are so gifted that they can hear the sound signature of 100 amps, with the experience of only 2. 

That's nothing - take a look at the cable thread

[GUTB]

12 hours ago, Silly goose said:

I don't listen to records. But there's lots of albums with a deep soundstage. With my system with class D amps, when I listen to this song, instruments go as far as 10-15' behind my speakers. Each instrument is in it's own perfect space in the soundstage, with no smearing together whatsoever. 

 

 

 

Thank you for the album recommendation. Yes, this track has a decent amount of soundstage depth. How did you get so much depth from a class D?

 

 

[bigbob]

Five pages of discussion, I am guilty of an ego investment in my trial of a $40 Class D amplifier, even with the $10 psu...  I thought the gold plated banana plugs was the secret.

 

Today my true audiophile friend came over and said he could hear in improvement since I was using the 24v regulated. 

 

But, Nope. Still sounded different than he remembered my system sounding. And different doesn't mean good.

 

The ears make the decision...that the harman/kardon is the amplifier of choice.

 

$50 Class D amplifier is OK for back in the bedroom with some Polk bookshelf speakers, running off a old laptop using a Dragonfly v1.2. No harm.

 

So... after all your opinions, "The Computer Audiophile on the Cheap" rates the Nobsound as NOT as good as a the h/k 330i with 20 watts per channel into 8Ω (stereo)--very warm, musical without restraint.

 

If you need to, give yourself a High-Five...the honest opinion of my ears leads my typing a review where I ask a question, a hearty discussion ensued--five pages worth...and in the end, You were Right.

 

That was easy.

 

I will say that maybe a $400 amplifier would no doubt sound better than this one.

 

I don't feel burned, it is a "Computer Audiophile on the Cheap" trial and error.

 

What did your last experiment cost you?

[Silly goose]

1 minute ago, GUTB said:

 

Thank you for the album recommendation. Yes, this track has a decent amount of soundstage depth. How did you get so much depth from a class D?

 

 

First thing you need is a good class D amp. 2nd is good speakers. 3rd is a good source. 4th is proper placement. Don't use any ICCx based Icepower's, or Pascal for reference for class D. As far as I'm concerned they are only fit for subwoofer duty. The $4.44 TI chips eat them for lunch. But of course you need all of the other parts along with the chips to make them function at a high level. 

[Jud]

4 minutes ago, bigbob said:

Five pages of discussion, I am guilty of ego investment in my trial of a $40 Class D amplifier. Even with the $10 psu...  I thought the gold plated banana plugs was the secret.

 

Today my true audiophile friend came over and said he could hear in improvement since I was using the 24v regulated. Nope. Still sounded different than he remember my system sounding.

 

The ears make the decision...that the harman/kardon is the amplifier of choice.

 

$50 is ok for back in the bedroom with some Polk bookshelf speakers off a old laptop using a Dragonfly v1.2. No harm.

 

So... after all your opinions, "The Computer Audiophile on the Cheap" rates the Nobsound as NOT as good as a the k/k 330i with 20 watts per channel into 8Ω (stereo)--very warm, musical without restraint.

 

If you need to, give yourself a High-Five...the honest opinion of my ears leads my typing a review where I ask a question, a hearty discussion ensued--five pages worth...and in the end, You were Right.

 

That was easy.

 

I had a very similar HK piece back in college - it was a receiver.

 

 The even older HH Scott amps have a great reputation, but because of that you may have a difficult time finding them "on the cheap."

 

I don't remember at the moment, what are you using for a DAC?  Is it the HK?

[bigbob]

1 minute ago, Jud said:

 

I had a very similar HK piece back in college - it was a receiver.

 

 The even older HH Scott amps have a great reputation, but because of that you may have a difficult time finding them "on the cheap."

 

I don't remember at the moment, what are you using for a DAC?  Is it the HK?

 

 

I have two iFi iDSD nano LE units sitting here on the desk awaiting return freight from Lawrance. I am committed to the Schiit Modi 2 at $99. If I were to upgrade one thing, it would be the $399 Bifrost...a good analog signal makes any receiver sound killer. The iFi iPurifier 2 makes a huge improvement at $109/free shipping.

[bigbob]

And now we are back on topic.... Modi 2 vs. Bifrost @ 4 times the price. Digital to Analog Converters...not class D.

[GUTB]

6 minutes ago, bigbob said:

And now we are back on topic.... Modi 2 vs. Bifrost @ 4 times the price. Digital to Analog Converters...not class D.

 

The Modi 2 is a very entry-level, low-performance DAC. It's clearly superior to low-end motherboard audio, though. I don't have any experience with the Bifrost. I would strongly recommend a USB isolator or filter like the Wyrd or Jitterbug.

[esldude]

The other end is where we should have spent more time discussing.  So if your budget is $50, and some have said class D can't sound good (which many of us know to be incorrect), care to suggest a $50 conventional amp that sounds better than class D at that price?  Are there any such amps available new for that price?

 

I know someone with a $78 class D amp I have not heard.  It will power some excellent speakers.  I have heard an amp similar in price and spec to the OPs power some Khorns.  The sound wasn't the best I have heard on those, but it was quite respectable and enjoyable.  The extremely low noise level of the 15 wpc amp on those was very beneficial with those speakers being efficient enough to show any noise were it there.  The price to performance ratio was exceptionally high.

[Silly goose]

29 minutes ago, bigbob said:

And now we are back on topic.... Modi 2 vs. Bifrost @ 4 times the price. Digital to Analog Converters...not class D.

So this isn't a class D thread? Just a Shiit DAC thread? Has anyone ever compared the IPhone 6 Plus DAC to those DAC's? I find it's quite good, and measures better than most sub $1000 DAC's as well. 

 

http://www.kenrockwell.com/apple/iphone-6-plus.htm

 

of course this is a little known secret DAC manufacturers don't want you to know. 

[bigbob]

28 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

The Modi 2 is a very entry-level, low-performance DAC. It's clearly superior to low-end motherboard audio, though. I don't have any experience with the Bifrost. I would strongly recommend a USB isolator or filter like the Wyrd or Jitterbug.

 

I am using iFi iPurifier 2

 

[GUTB]

39 minutes ago, esldude said:

The other end is where we should have spent more time discussing.  So if your budget is $50, and some have said class D can't sound good (which many of us know to be incorrect), care to suggest a $50 conventional amp that sounds better than class D at that price?  Are there any such amps available new for that price?

 

I know someone with a $78 class D amp I have not heard.  It will power some excellent speakers.  I have heard an amp similar in price and spec to the OPs power some Khorns.  The sound wasn't the best I have heard on those, but it was quite respectable and enjoyable.  The extremely low noise level of the 15 wpc amp on those was very beneficial with those speakers being efficient enough to show any noise were it there.  The price to performance ratio was exceptionally high.

 

I don't think there is such a thing as a good amp in that price range. This is as cheap as I can offer:

https://www.china-hifi-audio.com/en/music-angel-tube-amp-c-15/music-angel-class-a-845-tube-single-end-integrated-amplifier-p-142?zenid=e2c1199cd416a838db40e5b6adcee43e

[bigbob]

22 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

I don't think there is such a thing as a good amp in that price range. This is as cheap as I can offer:

https://www.china-hifi-audio.com/en/music-angel-tube-amp-c-15/music-angel-class-a-845-tube-single-end-integrated-amplifier-p-142?zenid=e2c1199cd416a838db40e5b6adcee43e

 

And then I suggest a piece of Vintage electronics from Goodwill, or the Thrift shop. For $50 you can get a big ass Pioneer or Sanyo, or any number of decent amplifiers/receivers. They will have over engineered power supplies, circuits that were the 'state of the art' before the 5.1 Surround Sound Home Theater stuff edged out 2 ch stereo. So I agree the Class D amp I spent $50 on doesn't hold a candle to the h/k330i --

 

(http://www.ebay.com/itm/Harmon-Kardon-hk330i-AM-FM-Stereo-Receiver/332179434122?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D40130%26meid%3D304fde9dcc664b5eb7d78a38b6e093e0%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D261101806482)

[bigbob]

1 hour ago, Silly goose said:

So this isn't a class D thread? Just a Shiit DAC thread? Has anyone ever compared the IPhone 6 Plus DAC to those DAC's? I find it's quite good, and measures better than most sub $1000 DAC's as well. 

 

http://www.kenrockwell.com/apple/iphone-6-plus.htm

 

of course this is a little known secret DAC manufacturers don't want you to know. 

 

Is there a Class D thread? anymore

[Silly goose]

3 minutes ago, bigbob said:

 

And then I suggest a piece of Vintage electronics from Goodwill, or the Thrift shop. For $50 you can get a big ass Pioneer or Sanyo, or any number of decent amplifiers/receivers. They will have over engineered power supplies, circuits that were the 'state of the art' before the 5.1 Surround Sound Home Theater stuff edged out 2 ch stereo. So I agree the Class D amp I spent $50 on doesn't hold a candle to the h/k330i --

 

(http://www.ebay.com/itm/Harmon-Kardon-hk330i-AM-FM-Stereo-Receiver/332179434122?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D40130%26meid%3D304fde9dcc664b5eb7d78a38b6e093e0%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D261101806482)

Combined with an iPhone, or iPod touch that would be a killer setup for the price. Bonus of the iPhone or iPod it's also a media player, among other capabilities. I have a portable 2tb battery powered wifi hard drive, and can stream my entire collection from it. Everyone's buying fancy power supplies to block leakage current from their DAC's. But why bother when an iPhone is battery powered? 

[Silly goose]

How's this for audio on the cheap. Measures even better than the iPhone 6 plus, and the DAC is only $9 a piece!! I need a new phone!!

 

http://www.kenrockwell.com/apple/lightning-adapter-audio-quality.htm

[Ralf11]

you don't want to rely on krockwell for audio or photography

[elcorso]

BIGGER IS BETTER !!!

 

Please note, I'm saying bigger and not expensive !

 

 

For comparison, in the following formula:

 

 

 

 

My fiancé with her lovely cavity resonance chamber:

 

 

Singing in the shower she has air, presence, 3 D, depth and width.  Like in real life...

This is not influenced by love and not different from real live, and of course not a 'nice' welcome distortion.

 

Nostradamus predictions said that by year 2017 a Super Bomb will hit Afghanistan damaging the sense of hearing before year 2025

 

 

 

 

Roch

 

 

 

[Silly goose]

16 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

you don't want to rely on krockwell for audio or photography

I find he gives very good no nonsense reviews. He's clearly not biased, because he's not being paid to do it. He has a good measurement machine as well to prove the gear is preforming well. Reviewers from the industry rarely tell the truth. Because they are simply paid advertisers. And if they say the product is poor, it's usually because they have ulterior motives. 

[esldude]

3 hours ago, GUTB said:

 

I don't think there is such a thing as a good amp in that price range. This is as cheap as I can offer:

https://www.china-hifi-audio.com/en/music-angel-tube-amp-c-15/music-angel-class-a-845-tube-single-end-integrated-amplifier-p-142?zenid=e2c1199cd416a838db40e5b6adcee43e

So all the commentary about class D by you wasn't about class D vs regular amp.  It was that no amp at $50 could be good.   Then your suggestion for more than 10x the price is an amp that one will have to match very, very carefully with speakers for it will have a high output impedance that will react with speakers to greatly vary the frequency response and this amp is rated at .8% distortion at full 20 watts of power.  One which according to specs is drooping enough to be audible at each end of the spectrum.  It doesn't not specify, but often that kind of response is at 1 watt output and will droop more at high power.  We do have the magic colorations of SET of course.

 

Something like the Crown amp mentioned earlier for $299 would be higher fidelity.  Most especially if it were only required to put out 20 wpc.  It would be quiet, low distortion, wide bandwidth relatively speaking and much more powerful.   It is likely not a world class sound, but it would do pretty well. 

[bigbob]

On 4/14/2017 at 3:12 PM, Jud said:

 

As for the tech not existing you are clearly wrong.  Just Google Bruno Putzeys.

But I can only applaud BigBob's quest to find sound he loves "on the cheap," and will follow with interest.

I have given up on the $40 Nobsound... by comparison my Yamaha Rx-135, even with idiopathic right channel Poltergeist, sounds better back in the bedroom with an iFi iDSD nano LE as the DAC, off an old laptop, with a mirror of the entire library. I'll find something to do with the Nobsound. With some cheap speakers. and the dragonfly it will work for somebody with less refined taste. The "Computer Audiophile on the Cheap" will chalk this up to experience. And endeavour to find tube magic next winter...

[esldude]

2 minutes ago, bigbob said:

I have given up on the $40 Nobsound... by comparison my Yamaha Rx-135, even with idiopathic right channel Poltergeist, sounds better back in the bedroom with an iFi iDSD nano LE as the DAC, off an old laptop, with a mirror of the entire library. I'll find something to do with the Nobsound. With some cheap speakers. and the dragonfly it will work for somebody with less refined taste. The "Computer Audiophile on the Cheap" will chalk this up to experience. And endeavour to find tube magic next winter...

I forget now which speakers you were using.  Was the Nobsound ever going to be able to do those justice?  I cannot say of course the Nobsound is great or no good.  It is low powered and an amp needs enough muscle to have a chance.

 

I once owned Pass Aleph 3.  They could sound exceptionally good.  With more than 75% of the speakers I tried them on they were shrill, flat and not pleasant to listen to because they were not powerful enough or even close to powerful enough.  They would play Quads pretty well if you knocked your normal volume down by 12-15 decibels.  Mostly because Quads require very little current for lower frequencies.  Ported speakers were a no go generally with the Aleph 3.  This was a 30 wpc amp, but limited and non-negotiable current output limitations.  8 amps absolute max as I recall.  So could be wonderful sounding amp if used with care, and sound nothing other than trashy with most speakers carelessly chosen.

[bigbob]

9 minutes ago, esldude said:

I forget now which speakers you were using.  Was the Nobsound ever going to be able to do those justice?  I cannot say of course the Nobsound is great or no good.  It is low powered and an amp needs enough muscle to have a chance.

 

 

In the living room I have advent loudspeakers. It was listenable, my ears didn't spurt blood--but the harman/kardon sounds better, same with the Yamaha. I have a pair of Polk bookshelf speakers that need some work, so I am using some 6 ohm Sharp speakers that came with a all in one cd/tapedeck/radio amplifier.

[GUTB]

39 minutes ago, esldude said:

So all the commentary about class D by you wasn't about class D vs regular amp.  It was that no amp at $50 could be good.   Then your suggestion for more than 10x the price is an amp that one will have to match very, very carefully with speakers for it will have a high output impedance that will react with speakers to greatly vary the frequency response and this amp is rated at .8% distortion at full 20 watts of power.  One which according to specs is drooping enough to be audible at each end of the spectrum.  It doesn't not specify, but often that kind of response is at 1 watt output and will droop more at high power.  We do have the magic colorations of SET of course.

 

Something like the Crown amp mentioned earlier for $299 would be higher fidelity.  Most especially if it were only required to put out 20 wpc.  It would be quiet, low distortion, wide bandwidth relatively speaking and much more powerful.   It is likely not a world class sound, but it would do pretty well. 

 

The 845 instantly and completely crushed the other amps I had at the time. During a period of a few months, I tried the Teac, an Emotiva A-300, and the D-Sonic with a pair of Chane A1.4s, Zu Omen Mk.IIs. More recently the Fritz Carbon VII SEs but only with the 845 and D-Sonic.

 

The Chanes are bad. Wasted time and money, but they were inexpensive. That'll teach me to listen to home theatre forums. They were virtually unlistenable with the Teac. With the Emotiva, they were much improved but still lacking in many ways. I switched gears and tried the 845. The improvement with the Chanes over the other two amps was immediate and dramatic. Still unpleased with the Chanes I got the Zu's and the Fritz's. The Omen Mk.II are a highly efficient floorstander with 10" drivers. The Carbon VII SEs are bookshelves with a no-capacitors crossover design featuring a very benign impedance / phase curve -- speakers designed for SETs.

 

The Omens are dynamic and fairly resolving. They played well with the 845 but really brought forward the control of the D-Sonic. They just won't cast a deep soundstage, which is thier main downfall. They are also very forward in thier soundstage, which I don't mind that much, but in conjunction with thier shallowness and narrowness, its just not what I wanted out of speaker listening.

 

The Carbons play very well with the 845. Soundstage is deep and wide and not so forward. Resolution is okay with the 845, but very good with the D-Sonic. Dynamics aren't nearly as great as the Omens, but maybe that is inevitable being much smaller. With the D-Sonic, soundstage is wide but shallow. I'm using the digital volume control on my DAC as a pre-amp.