WireWorld Starlight CAT 8 cable review

[plissken]

I think some of them are now starting to get the message that their components are too sensitive to Ethernet cables. Some of the recent advances aimed at lowering other sources of noise in digital playback have actually made it easier to hear differences in Ethernet cables (or optical fiber vs copper). I think we'll start seeing more in terms of isolation on the Ethernet side.

 

The problem may also have to be solved though closer to the source, and a fix there might not be possible - or expensive as in the case of an audiophile NAS or Ethernet switch.

 

 

 

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What streamer would you like me to test?

[kennyb123]

See here is the problem: You are convinced that differences exist but yet you only have anecdotal data.

 

I'm not the one trying to pass off my findings as science - or as if they have some meaning beyond a fixed scope.

 

I honestly don't believe Ethernet cables will make a noticeable difference in most systems. I think I even mentioned that I didn't think I would have noticed a difference in the system I had at the start of last year.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

[kennyb123]

What streamer would you like me to test?

 

None until after you take and pass a course where the scientific method is taught. Also maybe a class too that covers how to fairly represent test findings.

 

 

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[Johnseye]

None until after you take and pass a course where the scientific method is taught. Also maybe a class too that covers how to fairly represent test findings.

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[plissken]

None until after you take and pass a course where the scientific method is taught. Also maybe a class too that covers how to fairly represent test findings.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

 

Again you have to show where I have holes in the methodology. I've not made any claims outside of my setup (which has been well documented).

 

Just so I can understand:

 

If I were to replicate someone else's setup then it would be valid in your book?

 

Another point I would like to ask a question about:

 

Is having a niche audio product that is susceptible to what Ethernet cable is plugged into it be exemplar of what you would consider 'best of class' product in your opinion? If so why would it be better than a product that isn't?

 

Is a product that is stable regardless of in spec Ethernet cable to it's output undesirable to you?

 

Why can't I get a mention of a streamer that is reliably going to allow me to capture some tracks to show the difference?

 

I'm not presenting test finding. Other people are. You'll have to take that up with them.

[jhwalker]

A proper test methodology requires that the test equipment be sufficiently able to detect the differences under test. You haven't proven that you've done this, nor have you shown any indication that it's important for you to get this right.

 

Users have reported that better Ethernet cables eliminate noise. So the noise floor of the test system is an important consideration. This is lost on you.

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

 

I'm not sure I'm understanding your point - the test is showing there *is* no difference.

 

Archimago did a similar test with a server streaming over the Internet from Europe to his streaming device in Canada, and there was no difference from streaming locally - because even with thousands of miles, multiple hops, through tens of devices across the Internet, the signal is completely reconstructed on the receiving end and is bit-perfect; i.e., no difference. He repeated the experiment with a "Frankenwire" (i.e., deliberately poorly constructed Ethernet cable, 20+ feet long) and, again, no difference.

 

So you're saying you'd only accept the results of a test that proved there *is* a difference? That sounds like a broken test (and expectation bias) to me.

[Johnseye]

The burden should be on the cable manufacturers to prove without a doubt, using sound engineering and testing, that the cables do what is claimed. It shouldn't be on the consumer, nor should the consumer be criticized for any limitations in testing which are beyond their capabilities. Additionally the consumer should not be criticized for being skeptical of unproven claims of improvement in sound quality. The amount of people who cling to these notions in order to justify their expense, while at the same time attempting to discount those looking to find the truth behind the cable's engineering is stunning.

[kennyb123]

I'm not sure I'm understanding your point - the test is showing there *is* no difference.

 

Yes but the question then becomes why. There are two possible reasons: a] the test was not fairly conducted (either the methodology or the gear used was not up to the task) or b] there really were no differences between those two cables them with the gear he used. Do you not agree that it's appropriate to consider the fairness of the test and the person who is doing the test?

 

Also there's the application of the test findings. Do you think that his findings an be applied beyond the scope of this test? In other words, would it be fair to say that there is no possibility that WW Starlight can sound better in some other applications just because it didn't sound better in this particular test?

 

So you're saying you'd only accept the results of a test that proved there *is* a difference? That sounds like a broken test (and expectation bias) to me.

 

Where in the post you quoted did I mention the results? I wrote: "A proper test methodology requires that the test equipment be sufficiently able to detect the differences under test." Do you disagree with this?

[Johnseye]

Yes but the question then becomes why. There are two possible reasons: a] the test was not fairly conducted (either the methodology or the gear used was not up to the task) or b] there really were no differences between those two cables them with the gear he used. Do you not agree that it's appropriate to consider the fairness of the test and the person who is doing the test?

 

Also there's the application of the test findings. Do you think that his findings an be applied beyond the scope of this test? In other words, would it be fair to say that there is no possibility that WW Starlight can sound better in some other applications just because it didn't sound better in this particular test?

 

 

 

Where in the post you quoted did I mention the results? I wrote: "A proper test methodology requires that the test equipment be sufficiently able to detect the differences under test." Do you disagree with this?

 

I think the test, as with any audio component test, is going to be limited by every other component in the test. This is common knowledge and often acknowledged. It is impossible for everyone to have an identical environment if speakers are used because of the room. If headphones are used it becomes much more definable but still difficult to duplicate. The best thing to do is a test with your own system.

 

I read through the Audiostream comments below this cable's review. It contained a long conversation between Absolute Zero, maybe plissken, Steven Plaskin and Lavorgna. Very similar to this conversation. Audiostream's comments summarized were that it's audible, how can you argue with that. I think somewhere in that discussion it was brought up that it was audible on a high end system, so if you significantly reduce the noise from all the other components in the chain then you're left with what's being passed along the ethernet metal. So their listening experience was based upon their own gear and anyone with equipment that introduces more noise than theirs would impede someone's ability to hear the benefit the ethernet cable offers.

 

Another way to look at this would be that another listener's gear is better than the Audiostream reviewers so that it introduced less noise than theirs and that the ethernet cable would make no difference because there was nothing it could improve upon. Unless it can be proven repeatedly with measurable instruments then the benefit of this ethernet cable is dependent on the reviewer's equipment and no one else's.

[jhwalker]

Yes but the question then becomes why. There are two possible reasons: a] the test was not fairly conducted (either the methodology or the gear used was not up to the task) or b] there really were no differences between those two cables them with the gear he used. Do you not agree that it's appropriate to consider the fairness of the test and the person who is doing the test?

 

Also there's the application of the test findings. Do you think that his findings an be applied beyond the scope of this test? In other words, would it be fair to say that there is no possibility that WW Starlight can sound better in some other applications just because it didn't sound better in this particular test?

 

 

 

Where in the post you quoted did I mention the results? I wrote: "A proper test methodology requires that the test equipment be sufficiently able to detect the differences under test." Do you disagree with this?

 

Yes, I disagree. Again, you're proceeding from the assumption their *is* a difference - if there is in reality no difference, there is no test in the world that would be "sufficiently able to detect the differences under test."

[kennyb123]

Yes, I disagree. Again, you're proceeding from the assumption their *is* a difference - if there is in reality no difference, there is no test in the world that would be "sufficiently able to detect the differences under test."

 

The point of testing is to be able to arrive at that conclusion after having conducted a fair and sound test. As such you have to start with a hypothesis and then conduct a fair test that creates the conditions that would allow for such differences to be detected if they truly existed. That you disagree with this suggests I'd be wasting my time to go any further explaining this to you.

 

You also dodged my question about whether it is fair to question the fairness of the test itself. Totally expected. Striving for fairness can be anathema to the ideologue.

[kennyb123]

As an aside, I've been thinking of buying an A/D to record vinyl. I'm wondering if it would be sensitive enough to capture the subtle differences I hear with from Ethernet cables if I were to use it to capture the output from my DAC.

 

That I'm wondering if the A/D would be resolving enough to pick up yet subtle differences I hear from Ethernet cables seems like common sense to me. That there are some for whom this wouldn't matter is striking to me.

 

 

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[plissken]

The point of testing is to be able to arrive at that conclusion after having conducted a fair and sound test. As such you have to start with a hypothesis and then conduct a fair test that creates the conditions that would allow for such differences to be detected if they truly existed. That you disagree with this suggests I'd be wasting my time to go any further explaining this to you.

 

You also dodged my question about whether it is fair to question the fairness of the test itself. Totally expected. Striving for fairness can be anathema to the ideologue.

 

If anything I've repeatedly asked for issues with the test to be exposed. I've asked for possible DUT's to exploit the advantages of cabling. Yet no input. I've asked for how the test is UNFAIR (315 foot generic vs 12 foot boutique). Yet no input.

 

Also my setup represents a VERY typical scenario:

 

Switch as the central hub with spokes going of to router, server, client, WAP, printer. It's a setup that represents 99% of what people are running. There's a reason you can't find cracks in that setup: It's par for the course of what I, most likely you, and others are configured with. Yet, AGAIN, no input.

 

The question I am asking: Can anyone hear the difference in the ADC, with my setup, between the two cables

 

Is a streamer/computer that is prone to altering analog output upstream due to an Ethernet cable High End and Preferable?

 

Is a streamer/computer that is impervious to altering the analog output upstream due to an Ethernet cable low fidelity and should be avoidable?

[jhwalker]

The point of testing is to be able to arrive at that conclusion after having conducted a fair and sound test. As such you have to start with a hypothesis and then conduct a fair test that creates the conditions that would allow for such differences to be detected if they truly existed. That you disagree with this suggests I'd be wasting my time to go any further explaining this to you.

 

You also dodged my question about whether it is fair to question the fairness of the test itself. Totally expected. Striving for fairness can be anathema to the ideologue.

 

I am neither an ideologue nor stupid - I do not need "explaining".

 

I certainly agree that one should use the most sensitive equipment available to determine *if* there is a difference. You, however, seem to be stating the experiment is not valid *unless* it detects a difference, whether or not such a difference exists. Semantics, perhaps, but an important distinction.

[kennyb123]

I certainly agree that one should use the most sensitive equipment available to determine *if* there is a difference. You, however, seem to be stating the experiment is not valid *unless* it detects a difference, whether or not such a difference exists. Semantics, perhaps, but an important distinction.

 

The bar I set pertaining to the test equipment was "be sufficiently able to detect". I did not say there is a need to conclusively detect a difference or the test isn't valid. Had I said that, like you, I'd pounce on me. :-)

 

But, having said that, there are limits to the conclusions one can draw if there is no detection. All that can be concluded is that given the test conditions and products under test, no differences could be heard. One can't run around after that and claim that same cable wouldn't make a difference under different conditions.

[jhwalker]

The bar I set pertaining to the test equipment was "be sufficiently able to detect". I did not say there is a need to conclusively detect a difference or the test isn't valid. Had I said that, like you, I'd pounce on me. :-)

 

But, having said that, there are limits to the conclusions one can draw if there is no detection. All that can be concluded is that given the test conditions and products under test, no differences could be heard. One can't run around after that and claim that same cable wouldn't make a difference under different conditions.

 

Agreed.

[kennyb123]

Agreed.

 

Cool - glad to see we can find agreement!

[plissken]

 

Unless it can be proven repeatedly with measurable instruments then the benefit of this ethernet cable is dependent on the reviewer's equipment and no one else's.

 

To wrap this in a bit more information:

 

You have Darko, Van Es, Plaskin, Lavorgna, Hall, all hearing differences and not only in their setup. They have heard this at shows where we all know the sound *unless it's a very large vendor* is compromised due to room acoustics, a bunch of people in the room. Seating all over the place which means you aren't even near the sweet spot listening position most of the time.

 

Those claims logically mean the differences are very large given the listening circumstances. So it tends to lend credence to the marketing claims that SQ should be improved across the board. That's my take on it at least.

[Johnseye]

To wrap this in a bit more information:

 

You have Darko, Van Es, Plaskin, Lavorgna, Hall, all hearing differences and not only in their setup. They have heard this at shows where we all know the sound *unless it's a very large vendor* is compromised due to room acoustics, a bunch of people in the room. Seating all over the place which means you aren't even near the sweet spot listening position most of the time.

 

Those claims logically mean the differences are very large given the listening circumstances. So it tends to lend credence to the marketing claims that SQ should be improved across the board. That's my take on it at least.

 

Are they all getting paid in any way by the manufacturer for the reviews? Just sayin. Otherwise I may have to give one a try in my system.

[plissken]

Are they all getting paid in any way by the manufacturer for the reviews? Just sayin. Otherwise I may have to give one a try in my system.

 

They are in the eco-system as advertising $$'s are constituted. Anyone should feel free to try one for themselves.

 

I've just put up a way to easily A/B them. Just need to setup a LAG on the switch.